Fitna. The movie...

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Are you suggesting that Jews haven't perpetrated any violence in the Middle East? One of my favorite professors was a Coptic Christian that lived through the Six-Day War. The stories weren't pleasant.

They were reacting to a war that was waged upon them by troops from 7 different countries. Stories of war are never pleasant. We are discussing terrorism here, not war.

[JamesGatz83]

They were reacting to a war that was waged upon them by troops from 7 different countries. Stories of war are never pleasant. We are discussing terrorism here, not war.

Could it be that Jews don't commit acts of terrorism in the Middle East because they know the Israeli Military will act on their behalf, while Palestinians are forced to rely on terrorism and groups like Hamas?

As Americans, what would be our reaction to the prospect of foreign occupation if we didn't have the sense of safety provided by our military?

[TunaMan5]

Learn to separate between islam and muslims. Islam is perfect, muslims are not.

hahahahha yes



ps I hate how westerners use images from Kosovo and Bosnia for their propaganda where Muslims were killing Serbs, destroying Serbian churches etc etc and at the same time use them for other purposes to attack Serbs as much as they can ....

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Could it be that Jews don't commit acts of terrorism in the Middle East because they know the Israeli Military will act on their behalf, while Palestinians are forced to rely on terrorism and groups like Hamas?

Jews don't commit terrorist acts because they're Jews. Muslims do because they're Muslims.

Jews have been persecuted and terrorized all over the the M.E for a very long time way before there was an Israel. There are only very very few rare cases in which a Jewish terrorist organization was formed (and they were by secular Jews).

Jewish terrorism has always been virtually non-existent, even under the most horrible circumstances.

[kev108]

cliffs?

propaganda

[JamesGatz83]

Jews don't commit terrorist acts because they're Jews. Muslims do because they're Muslims.

You're assigning an awful lot of behavioral importance to religion and ethnicity. I've never been in a fight before. Is that because I'm an agnostic American? Or because of my particular individual temperament? Or is it because I've never felt threatened to the point where I thought violence was necessary?

It just seems too simplistic to say that a particular group commits violence because of their heritage, religion, or physical appearance.

Are you familiar with constructivist or instrumentalist theories of religious or ethnic violence?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

You're assigning an awful lot of behavioral importance to religion and ethnicity. I've never been in a fight before. Is that because I'm an agnostic American? Or because of my particular individual temperament? Or is it because I've never felt threatened to the point where I thought violence was necessary?

It just seems too simplistic to say that a particular group commits violence because of their heritage, religion, or physical appearance.

Are you familiar with constructivist or instrumentalist theories of religious or ethnic violence?

No.

I'm aware of statistics. And the statistics say a lot.

I actually do not think ethnicity is in any way shape or form related to violence. Religion most definitely is.

[JamesGatz83]

No.

I'm aware of statistics. And the statistics say a lot.

I actually do not think ethnicity is in any way shape or form related to violence. Religion most definitely is.

I tend to agree with instrumentalism. Religion seems to be employed as a motivating tool, or a rallying cry, in order to mobilize the masses in pursuit of a broader agenda. Muslims feel they've been wronged politically, certain figures (e.g. bin Laden and al Qaeda) further incite them using religious texts, and violence results.

[Chowboy]

As expected, the movie has been pulled by Live Leak due to the severity and quantity of threats received from the adherents of The Religion of Peace.

Sad.

[mehdi84]

No.

I'm aware of statistics. And the statistics say a lot.

I actually do not think ethnicity is in any way shape or form related to violence. Religion most definitely is.

Don't take offense to this, but are you sincere with the comments you are making in this thread, or are you just messing with us?

[Organichu]

Jewish terrorism has always been virtually non-existent, even under the most horrible circumstances.

ברוך גולדשטיין?

29 dead, and he was religious.

[JamesGatz83]

ברוך גולדשטיין?

29 dead, and he was religious.

I was hoping you'd weigh in on this thread. Definitely interested to hear any insight you could offer.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

ברוך גולדשטיין?

29 dead, and he was religious.

Point? I said virtually non-existent. Not completely non-existent.

Lets face it. There is an extremely huge difference between Judaism, and Islam. Islam clearly and obviously encourages terrorism, Judaism clearly does not..... The proof is in the pudding.

[Rambo26]

As expected, the movie has been pulled by Live Leak due to the severity and quantity of threats received from the adherents of The Religion of Peace.

Sad.

Shameful

[Organichu]

I was hoping you'd weigh in on this thread. Definitely interested to hear any insight you could offer.

Honestly, the reason I didn't post earlier is because your arguments closely mirror my own and I thought it'd be redundant. The Crusades are a great example, actually. It's just an historical ebb and flow- the Crusades, the current flareup of terror in Eurasia, etc.- they're far, far more resultant of the political climate than they are of religious paradigmatic thought. There are Muslim enclaves that are nonviolent- Christian enclaves that are- etc etc. The nature of the present day and the historical segues from then to now happen to call for hundreds of millions of angry Muslims. That's it.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

I tend to agree with instrumentalism. Religion seems to be employed as a motivating tool, or a rallying cry, in order to mobilize the masses in pursuit of a broader agenda. Muslims feel they've been wronged politically, certain figures (e.g. bin Laden and al Qaeda) further incite them using religious texts, and violence results.

These "certain figures" are extremely common, and they have followers at very high rates. I never said Islam is the only cause, but it certainly is a large factor.

Don't take offense to this, but are you sincere with the comments you are making in this thread, or are you just messing with us?

Why would I take offense to your inability to understand why I'm right? That's your issue, not mine.

[Organichu]

Point? I said virtually non-existent. Not completely non-existent.

I was trying to be didactic. Ok, think of it like this: say, tomorrow, one particularly charismatic Jew started a movement for the Temple to be rebuilt inside of this upcoming Passover? That'd give us about three weeks to have the Temple rebuilt. Now, because he's so charismatic a few hundred Haredi join him. Their families almost invariably join (such is the nature of the contemporary family unit). You now have a full thousand Israelis who want the Temple built by mid April. How do they achieve that end, considering that there are people who will invest their lives to prevent that from happening? They will take those lives. Stabbings. Shootings. Bombings. It could happen- we are lucky it hasn't.

When/if it does, will it be because Judaism calls for widespread murder?

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

I was trying to be didactic. Ok, think of it like this: say, tomorrow, one particularly charismatic Jew started a movement for the Temple to be rebuilt inside of this upcoming Passover? That'd give us about three weeks to have the Temple rebuilt. Now, because he's so charismatic a few hundred Haredi join him. Their families almost invariably join (such is the nature of the contemporary family unit). You now have a full thousand Israelis who want the Temple built by mid April. How do they achieve that end, considering that there are people who will invest their lives to prevent that from happening? They will take those lives. Stabbings. Shootings. Bombings. It could happen- we are lucky it hasn't.

When/if it does, will it be because Judaism calls for widespread murder?

I never said Islam calls for it, I said it encourages it. And it does. See, if these Rabbis were citing verses from the Torah that permit this sort of behavior, and if this was widespread happening in every f*cking area of the world where Jews reside, then yes you can easily and justifiably say Judaism is a factor.

Whichever countries Muslim reside there is terrorism, rape, inciting of hatred, honor killings and other senseless murders. This is not racism. This is just being aware of the facts. Its f*cking disgusting.

[Organichu]

I never said Islam calls for it, I said it encourages it. And it does. See, if these Rabbis were citing verses from the Torah that permit this sort of behavior

Are you challenging me to find a hateful verse that encourages criminal activity in the Torah?... Because if so, I could so throw down.

and if this was widespread happening in every f*cking area of the world where Jews reside, then yes you can easily and justifiably say Judaism is a factor.

What's the magic number? 10 deaths? 100? 1,000? etc.

Whichever countries Muslim reside there is terrorism, rape, inciting of hatred, honor killings and other senseless murders. This is not racism. This is just being aware of the facts. Its f*cking disgusting.

I'm not saying I like honor killings... I think they're terrible. I'm saying that you can't place Islam and Judaism on diametrically opposite poles of the moral sphere; Islam isn't a rabble-rousing, murder/bomb/rape encouraging religion, while Judaism is a peaches n' cream, butterflies and syrup religion. The actual religion has faaaaaaaaaaaaar less to do with the terroristic activity than the people and the political climate of their homelands.

[JamesGatz83]

I was trying to be didactic. Ok, think of it like this: say, tomorrow, one particularly charismatic Jew started a movement for the Temple to be rebuilt inside of this upcoming Passover? That'd give us about three weeks to have the Temple rebuilt. Now, because he's so charismatic a few hundred Haredi join him. Their families almost invariably join (such is the nature of the contemporary family unit). You now have a full thousand Israelis who want the Temple built by mid April. How do they achieve that end, considering that there are people who will invest their lives to prevent that from happening? They will take those lives. Stabbings. Shootings. Bombings. It could happen- we are lucky it hasn't.

When/if it does, will it be because Judaism calls for widespread murder?

Terrific example.

Another pertinent case to consider would be the use of the Hamitic Curse to justify the Triangle Trade. Slavery wasn't such a robust enterprise in the United States because it was specifically advocated by Christianity. It obviously had more to do with simple economics than religion. Regardless, Biblical passages were often quoted in the defense of its morality.

The point is that people often turn to religion as a means of justifying ethically questionable actions. The vague nature and malleability of religious texts makes them well suited for serving many different agendas -- both good and evil. Religion is almost always a secondary factor, however. Very rarely does one pick up a book and, on its mere suggestion, engage in mass murder.

[leafs43]

Islam will never reach an age of reason like Christians and Jews have done.

In the age of reason, reason allowed the latter to reject certain passages in the Bible and Torah. Ask a muslim, especially a fundamentalist one at that, to reject certain passages in the Koran. He will probably say something along the lines of "anyone who critisizes Mohammed should be put to death." And that my friends while not scripture is the practice of the scripture and is prevelant throughout the Islamic world. So an age of rason is impossible under the fear of death in Islam.

Islam is NOT perfect because of that.

[JamesGatz83]

Islam will never reach an age of reason like Christians and Jews have done.

In the age of reason, reason allowed the latter to reject certain passages in the Bible and Torah. Ask a muslim, especially a fundamentalist one at that, to reject certain passages in the Koran. He will probably say something along the lines of "anyone who critisizes Mohammed should be put to death." And that my friends while not scripture is the practice of the scripture and is prevelant throughout the Islamic world. So an age of rason is impossible under the fear of death in Islam.

Islam is NOT perfect because of that.

Ask some of the fundamentalist Christians on this board to reject certain passages in the Bible.

Unfortunately, there are fundamentalist nuts and extremists within almost every religion.

[leafs43]

Ask some of the fundamentalist Christians on this board to reject certain passages in the Bible.

Unfortunately, there are fundamentalist nuts and extremists within almost every religion.

But with Islam it even extends into the moderate crowd which is the scary part.

Edit:

Just look how quickly the video was removed. Do you think it was all 100,000 of the extremists pitching in to get it shut down because it critisized Islam?

[Organichu]

Islam will never reach an age of reason like Christians and Jews have done.

In the age of reason, reason allowed the latter to reject certain passages in the Bible and Torah. Ask a muslim, especially a fundamentalist one at that, to reject certain passages in the Koran. He will probably say something along the lines of "anyone who critisizes Mohammed should be put to death." And that my friends while not scripture is the practice of the scripture and is prevelant throughout the Islamic world. So an age of rason is impossible under the fear of death in Islam.

Islam is NOT perfect because of that.

You do realize that each of the Abrahamic faiths has undergone periods of intellectual stagnation, right? Remember how back in the day only prominent religious figures could hope to make any ground way in religious societies? When the lay folk tried to forge new theological routes, they were crucified, burned at the stake, etc.

Judaism and Christianity both faced this- it was part of the political and social climate of the time.

[JamesGatz83]

But with Islam it even extends into the moderate crowd which is the scary part.

That has more to do with the current geopolitical conditions than the religion itself. Islamic nations are embroiled in conflict across the globe. It hasn't always been this way, though. And in a few hundred years, I'm sure a different religion will have replaced it as the scapegoat.

[leafs43]

You do realize that each of the Abrahamic faiths has undergone periods of intellectual stagnation, right? Remember how back in the day only prominent religious figures could hope to make any ground way in religious societies? When the lay folk tried to forge new theological routes, they were crucified, burned at the stake, etc.

Judaism and Christianity both faced this- it was part of the political and social climate of the time.

Ummm ya very well aware. I believe we call them the dark ages.

And who would have thought, it was when religion intermingled with politics, like we see with sharia law.


Not a hard jump in logic there.

[19george]

As expected, the movie has been pulled by Live Leak due to the severity and quantity of threats received from the adherents of The Religion of Peace.

Sad.

And if this doesn't get through to people, I don't know what will. The point to this film is that as everyday goes by, our freedoms are shrinking due to the Islamic threat. Score one for Islamism and Sharia.

How long before our freedom of speech is completely silenced by threats and intimidation?

[Organichu]

Ummm ya very well aware. I believe we call them the dark ages.

And who would have thought, it was when religion intermingled with politics, like we see with sharia law.


Not a hard jump in logic there.

Oh, so you mean that what Islam is going through right now is just like what Christianity went through? If Christianity can climb out, why not Islam?

[1devil]

I don't necessarily buy into the idea that there is some inherent element/s in Islam that leads to violence. However, is that there is a disproportionate amount of terrorist activity coming out out of the Muslim world today. This is a simple fact. The fact that other groups may or may not have engaged in such activity in the past does not make this any less concerning.

[mehdi84]

Why would I take offense to your inability to understand why I'm right? That's your issue, not mine.

Clearly I was referring to whether you were being sincere, or not. Regardless, do you honestly expect me to. As far as I am concerned, you are trying to explain to me how my people think, when I myself have grown up with them. You are telling me one thing, and I have seen another. Yet, I'm supposed to somehow conform to your thinking. Excuse me for reasoning.