Fitna. The movie...

[Chowboy]

The movie the Dutch were afraid to show.

The movie that will prolly result in the death of Geert Wilders.

The movie Islamist's will reject as propaganda.

Ah, what the hell, here it is:

http://www.*************/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Draw you own conclusions.

Forgot to add, it is only 15 minutes.

[striker543]

it already has 1593411 views?

strong linking in one day.

[Chowboy]

it already has 1593411 views?

strong linking in one day.

Didn't notice that...

Predict it will hit the millions by tomorrow. Unless, of course, the death threats get it pulled.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

Religion of peace yo.

But seriously, I could have made a better movie than that.

[hassaanu]

cliffs?

[jnani]

The movie the Dutch were afraid to show.

It has nothing to do with the Dutch being afraid to show this movie. Even though the Netherlands ranks highest in the world where it concerns civil liberties, they do draw the line when freedom of speech becomes outright hate speech.

Forgot to add, it is only 15 minutes.

That all it takes for some people who are desperately looking for 'fame'.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

It has nothing to do with the Dutch being afraid to show this movie. Even though the Netherlands ranks highest in the world where it concerns civil liberties, they do draw the line when freedom of speech becomes outright hate speech.

This does not qualify as hate speech. It showed versus from the Koran, and attributed them to today's atrocities, and why there are so many savages out there looking for death, destruction, and murder.

Not hate speech. Just accurate reporting.

[Rambo26]

Free speech must be upheld, simple as that

[sup_builder2]

It has nothing to do with the Dutch being afraid to show this movie. Even though the Netherlands ranks highest in the world where it concerns civil liberties, they do draw the line when freedom of speech becomes outright hate speech.



That all it takes for some people who are desperately looking for 'fame'.

This is not hate speech, as someone else mentioned.
Also the Dutch government did not block the release or anything. No publishers were willing to take it because of the security risks (yes terrorists attacks from so called peace-loving Muslims).

[jnani]

Free speech must be upheld, simple as that

Interesting. So, what's your opinion on Holocaust deniers?

[Rambo26]

Interesting. So, what's your opinion on Holocaust deniers?

idiots, but it's their right!

[Organichu]

Interesting. So, what's your opinion on Holocaust deniers?

I know this wasn't addressed at me but- they should be able to say whatever they'd like.

[jnani]

idiots, but it's their right!

Some countries beg to differ....

[Turco]

Some countries beg to differ....

Different countries do a lot of things differently, but that doesn't change the definition of freedom of expression.

[Boxman]

Some countries beg to differ....

You're muslim, yes?

[jnani]

You're muslim, yes?

No, I'm not. What makes you think I am?

[Anathemas]

The thing is, Europeans are generally racist people, even if they don’t seem so obvious. It doesn't matter if they're English, Italian, Russian, German, w/e; they're a pretty proud folk. I wouldn't be surprised if right-wing parties eventually get elected to prevent any threats to the European identity/culture.

People tend to forget that Germany was one of the most progressive, cultured states in the 19th and early 20th century, producing some of the most brilliant thinkers... Look what happened when the times got rough and a suitable scapegoat was found.

Muslims would most certainly be targeted... something to think about.

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

No, I'm not. What makes you think I am?

Probably due to you irrationally calling this movie hate speech.

[jnani]

I know this wasn't addressed at me but- they should be able to say whatever they'd like.

I wouldn't stop a fool to make a fool out of him/her self, either

[Rambo26]

Some countries beg to differ....

Yep, but I don't believe those complaining about blasphemy and hate speech against Islam are arguing for freer speech

Video seems ok to me, I pretty much agree with it

[jnani]

The thing is, Europeans are generally racist people, {snip}

There is no such thing as "European people".

[Anathemas]

There is no such thing as "European people".

that's why I said Europeans not "European people."

you don't honestly expect me to list some 40 states do you... =/

[EOY]

The movie the Dutch were afraid to show.

The movie that will prolly result in the death of Geert Wilders.

The movie Islamist's will reject as propaganda.

Ah, what the hell, here it is:

http://www.*************/view?i=7d9_1206624103

Draw you own conclusions.

Forgot to add, it is only 15 minutes.

It is propaganda. As a rule of thumb, whenever you see people with an agenda quoting single verses from the Qur'an, it's a good idea to read a few verses before and after them just to give it a little bit of context so it can be more properly understood. The producers of the movie instead quote select verses abstractly so that you don't have the actual context at hand, and then they thought they'd play a movie to go along with it to effectively provide a context of their own. How is this not propaganda?

In what follows, I will post the verses from the movie along with the verses that appear before and after them in the Qur'an. The verses from the movie will be underlined. Important contextual information will be bolded. You can go here for multiple translations of the Qur'an. I've chosen the Khalifa translation here because that's the one I usually go with.


First verse quoted in the propaganda movie:

8:56 You reach agreements with them, but they violate their agreements every time; they are not righteous.
8:57 Therefore, if you encounter them in war, you shall set them up as a deterrent example for those who come after them, that they may take heed.
8:58 When you are betrayed by a group of people, you shall mobilize against them in the same manner. GOD does not love the betrayers.
8:59 Let not those who disbelieve think that they can get away with it; they can never escape.
8:60 You shall prepare for them all the power you can muster, and all the equipment you can mobilize, that you may frighten the enemies of GOD, your enemies, as well as others who are not known to you; GOD knows them. Whatever you spend in the cause of GOD will be repaid to you generously, without the least injustice.
8:61 If they resort to peace, so shall you, and put your trust in GOD. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
8:62 If they want to deceive you, then GOD will suffice you. He will help you with His support, and with the believers.

The verses speak for themselves.

Second verse quoted in the propaganda movie

If you encounter (in war) those who disbelieve, you may strike the necks. If you take them as captives you may set them free or ransom them, until the war ends. Had GOD willed, He could have granted you victory, without war. But He thus tests you by one another. As for those who get killed in the cause of GOD, He will never put their sacrifice to waste.

Nuff said. This one is pretty straight forward. You meet your enemies in war, you kill them. That's what people do in war. Notice how important information is being left out from the translation used in the video. There is no mention of war at all.

Third verse quoted in the propaganda movie

4:88 Why should you divide yourselves into two groups regarding hypocrites (among you)? GOD is the one who condemned them because of their own behavior. Do you want to guide those who are sent astray by GOD? Whomever GOD sends astray, you can never find a way to guide them.
4:89 They wish that you disbelieve as they have disbelieved, then you become equal. Do not consider them friends, unless they mobilize along with you in the cause of GOD. If they turn against you, you shall fight them, and you may kill them when you encounter them in war. You shall not accept them as friends, or allies.*
4:90 Exempted are those who join people with whom you have signed a peace treaty, and those who come to you wishing not to fight you, nor fight their relatives. Had GOD willed, He could have permitted them to fight against you. Therefore, if they leave you alone, refrain from fighting you, and offer you peace, then GOD gives you no excuse to fight them.

These verses are clearly talking about agents within the Muslim army who would turn against them during war. The verses clearly says that they should be fought in war only, and those who refrain from fighting them should be left alone. The version made up by the producers of this propaganda movie are grossly misrepresenting what the actual verses really say.

Fourth verse quoted in the propaganda movie

8:39 You shall fight them to ward off oppression, and to practice your religion devoted to GOD alone. If they refrain from aggression, then GOD is fully Seer of everything they do.b

Almost the enitre verse has been neglected by the propaganda movie producers, save for the parts that lend themselves to propaganda of course.

So there you have it. There's nothing more to this video than made up/misinterperted/intentionally misrepresented verses and videos of random fringe individuals doing or saying something shocking. The video quotes verses out of context and provides it's own (in the form of shocking videos and images) to go along with them so as to convey it's message through the medium of emotions, not intellect and reason. The video then goes own to show statistics of a growing Muslim population in western countries to instill fear and islamophobia in the viewer after giving a false peresentation of what Muslims believe in. This video is the defnition of propaganda.

What's really ridiculous is that there's nothing revolutionary in the video. These verses are staples at just about any anti-Islamic website. Even here on this forum they've been posted countless times and have been refuted time and time again. Not only that, but even the videos used have been widely available on the internet. I myself have seen almost all of them many times in the past. What an embarrassingly disproportionate effort given the hype surrounding this garbage movie.

[jnani]

that's why I said Europeans not "European people."

You said: "Europeans are generally racist people". Sounds like a generalization to me.

[Anathemas]

You said: "Europeans are generally racist people". Sounds like a generalization to me.

they may be generalizations... but hey, I'm working with what I see/read...

[Dragonfire43560]

whooo what does Renegade have to say to that post?? I bet you ANYTHING that you find against Islam is just a verse taken out of context, like the above poster proved. And yes I am Muslim, you wanna attack me for that Renegade?

Bigot.

[EOY]

Religion of peace yo.

But seriously, I could have made a better movie than that.

It's not the religion of pacifism and unconditional peace, that's for sure. But it's not the religion of random violence either.

Oh, and there's nothing in those verses that you can't find an equivalent of in the Torah in terms of violence. In fact, there's far worse. I can quote you examples of that if you like, but I'm sure you already knew that.

[Dragonfire43560]

Thats a good point because Islam prides itself in its practicality to daily life and honestly pacifism would pretty much go nowhere in todays world. Peace is very very encouraged but it also acknowledges that human beings are dumb as **** and sometimes fighting is the only way, but it also has VERY strict rules for wartime situations.


here is an excellent link
http://tinyurl.com/34exzo

[ll ReNeGaDe ll]

It's not the religion of pacifism and unconditional peace, that's for sure. But it's not the religion of random violence either.

Oh, and there's nothing in those verses that you can't find an equivalent of in the Torah in terms of violence. In fact, there's far worse. I can quote you examples of that if you like, but I'm sure you already knew that.

The end result is what matters.

And the end result is very clear and very obvious.

[guym]

I wonder if those imams are "true muslims"

Or was, ONCE again, the arabic "mis-translated"???