Paleolithic Diet (aka: the caveman diet)

[wulf88]

So, I just started this diet and I already can feel a difference. It is basically eliminating all processed foods, wheat, oats, cereal products, etc, and concentrating on eating lean meats, fish, fruits, vegetables and nuts. I have dropped about 10 lbs in 3 weeks, mainly body fat and have way more energy than before. Just wondering if anyone else has tried or is on this type of diet? If you want more information on it, just go to google and type in paleolithic diet. You will be amazed at the number of hits that will come back.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by wulf88

So, I just started this diet and I already can feel a difference. It is basically eliminating all processed foods, wheat, oats, cereal products, etc, and concentrating on eating lean meats, fish, fruits, vegetables and nuts. I have dropped about 10 lbs in 3 weeks, mainly body fat and have way more energy than before. Just wondering if anyone else has tried or is on this type of diet? If you want more information on it, just go to google and type in paleolithic diet. You will be amazed at the number of hits that will come back.

Howdy wulf88.....

I suppose 'eliminating all processed foods' is a great ideal to strive for but I would not be willing to give up good grains (oatmeal for me) or pasta, rice and potatoes (red for me) just because there may be some 'prosessing' involved with the manufacturing of the product.

What you note above as acceptable foods seems pretty complete but still to me is just far too short of complex carbs.....but I've been wrong in the past.

Even with lean meats.....how much out there can one say is 'not processed' to some degree?

My take.....all food groups have their place in the right balance and I'm not too retentive to picking everything apart.
I just try to eat big, lift big and get big with all the good stuff....except on weekends when I want bacon with my 6 eggs.

In the end....do what works for you but let logic prevail.

I'm not taking issue with your approach I'm only inciting more comments from more knowledgeable forumites.

Good luck with your goals and maybe others will educate us further.

[Minotaur]

I eat pretty much like that. Come to the Keto forum.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Wayne Evans

In the end....do what works for you but let logic prevail.

I'm not taking issue with your approach I'm only inciting more comments from more knowledgeable forumites.

Good luck with your goals and maybe others will educat us further.

It's a good diet to follow if you are insulin resistant or diabetic, have Metabolic syndrome, and high triglycerides and cholesterol. Eliminating grainy and starchy carbs greatly controls those conditions. My triglycerides dropped from over 200 to 114.

Properly, a caveman/paleo diet is high in fat. The calories from fat replace the carb calories for energy. With high fat it become a ketogenic diet. Paleo and hunter-gatherer societies ate animal preferentially.

[Mr. Someday]

Not a new concept by any stretch....my prep guy always says "If you can't pick it, kill it or grow it, you shouldn't be eating it". It is an ideal to shoot for and during a prep I pretty much live by that mantra.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

It's a good diet to follow if you are insulin resistant or diabetic, have Metabolic syndrome, and high triglycerides and cholesterol. Eliminating grainy and starchy carbs greatly controls those conditions. My triglycerides dropped from over 200 to 114.

Properly, a caveman/paleo diet is high in fat. The calories from fat replace the carb calories for energy. With high fat it become a ketogenic diet. Paleo and hunter-gatherer societies ate animal preferentially.

Minotaur.....I just knew I would get more education.
I didn't think about the 'diabetic' thing and your comments certainly stand to reason.
Those 'fats' your refer must be the 'good guys' in this case?

Mr. Someday.....I agree with your 'mantra' of eating habits and I ascribe to the same myself...did I mention I need BACON on the weekends.

Thanks to you both for chiming in.

Respecfully.....of course.

[taf1968]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

I eat pretty much like that. Come to the Keto forum.

Yup . . . that's what I was thinking. The diet seems counterintuitive, but it's really amazing how the fat comes off and you seem to retain muscle mass. But like others have said . . . everyone is a little different and needs to find what works for them (and what they can be consistent with).

[JOHN GARGANI]

Cavemen also often ate ONE FOOD at a time: we are the ones who mix various foods together....

whatever was ripe, whatever was catchable, at that time, that is what they ate.


however: please keep this sobering thought in mind: what was the average life expectancy of a caveman???? LOL.....

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Wayne Evans

Those 'fats' your refer must be the 'good guys' in this case?

For ketoers, all fats are the good guys. When following a keto diet, the only fats that are ruled out are trans-fats. Sat fats are not considered "bad".

I'm digressing and probably going to start a ****storm here, but there is no study... none... not one... that shows sat fats to be involved in heart disease. Nope. The "knowledge" is actually based on Ancel Keys faulty studies and observations. It's been propagated through the years. Gary Taubes debunks all the "sat fat is bad" beliefs in his book Good Calories Bad Calories.

Btw, contrary to popular belief, animal fat is not 100% saturated. It's mostly unsaturated.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI

however: please keep this sobering thought in mind: what was the average life expectancy of a caveman???? LOL.....

That's a good point, and one that's easily addressed...

There is no genetic difference in the lifespan of a modern day human and a paleo or neolithic human, or an ancient Roman or Greek or Egyptian. Genetically we are all programmed to have the same lifespan.

Now, the average lifespan of early humans was less because of infant high mortality, untreated infections and disease, accidents.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life_ex...ine_for_humans

[chodan9]

I have used the keto diet with good results.
I got down to 180 last year and was as lean as I have ever been.
I have spent the cold months gaining mass though and am at 190 now, down from 195.
I have found that the more intensity I have in the gym the less I can stick with the keto diet. Not that its flawed, just my ability to stick to it.
With keto you may notice some weakness over time due to lackof glycogen in your muscles, keto does address this with periodic carb up days. My lack of discipline always terned the carb up days into carb up weeks LOL.
Some people dont need those carb ups though.
I have switched to a more standard ratio of macro's. Keto is excellent but a diet is only as good as a persons ability to stick to it, many people have good success with it but I am seeming to do better with some more cars in my diet.

When I was less active I had great success with it though.

[Don71]

I always think it's funny when people comment on eating carbs and they mention foods like wheat bread, rice and pasta. Basically carbs with almost no nutritional value at all. They never say spinich and brocolli or carbs taht are infinately more nutritional. Some people should read 'Eat to Live'. I'd never eat that way but it would shed some light on carbs.

Carbs->release insulin->insulin stores fat

[GREENFEATHER]

Originally Posted by Wayne Evans

Minotaur.....I just knew I would get more education.
I didn't think about the 'diabetic' thing and your comments certainly stand to reason.
Those 'fats' your refer must be the 'good guys' in this case?

Mr. Someday.....I agree with your 'mantra' of eating habits and I ascribe to the same myself...did I mention I need BACON on the weekends.

Thanks to you both for chiming in.

Respecfully.....of course.

In the absence of carbs, your body will use fats for fuel. High cholesterol is CAUSED by the fact that we ARE designed to run on fats NOT carbs no matter what the grain producers say!! Look at it this way, carbs are a preferred fuel, keep adding them and what happens to all that fat? That's right, it just keeps recirculating until you have that massive coronary from a blocked artery. Now take those carbs OUT of the equation, your body uses them for fuel and you don't have an issue. I eat somewhere in the 200-250g of fats per day, ALL types of fats. My cholesterol stays below 200 , usually in the 170-180 range with my triglycerides in the 100-150 range depending upon if I've had a carb up recently. Fat won't kill you, but the WRONG types of carbs WILL!!

.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by GREENFEATHER

In the absence of carbs, your body will use fats for fuel. High cholesterol is CAUSED by the fact that we ARE designed to run on fats NOT carbs no matter what the grain producers say!! Look at it this way, carbs are a preferred fuel, keep adding them and what happens to all that fat? That's right, it just keeps recirculating until you have that massive coronary from a blocked artery. Now take those carbs OUT of the equation, your body uses them for fuel and you don't have an issue. I eat somewhere in the 200-250g of fats per day, ALL types of fats. My cholesterol stays below 200 , usually in the 170-180 range with my triglycerides in the 100-150 range depending upon if I've had a carb up recently. Fat won't kill you, but the WRONG types of carbs WILL!!

.

Evenin'.....

Good info to chew on here and helps me undestand better the carb/fat relationship.

I have not tried a diet like that but sure would miss the few complex carbs I do eat.

Grennfeather and Don71....thanks for your comments.
At this moment in time I share chodan9s' feelings of feeling carb starved.
Guess I have to try it to know for sure.

Buenos noches...

[Don71]

Carve starved.....I think I might of felt that in the first 48 hours. Once my body adjusted I can honestly say I've enever had more energy, atleast not since I was young.

[Ingersoll]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

I eat pretty much like that. Come to the Keto forum.

I was just gonna say...

[JOHN GARGANI]

Originally Posted by Don71

I always think it's funny when people comment on eating carbs and they mention foods like wheat bread, rice and pasta. Basically carbs with almost no nutritional value at all. They never say spinich and brocolli or carbs taht are infinately more nutritional. Some people should read 'Eat to Live'. I'd never eat that way but it would shed some light on carbs.

Carbs->release insulin->insulin stores fat

Don: you have several misunderstandings here: first of all, wheat bread, rice and pasta are NOT nutritionally bare, in fact, the greater percentage of the world's population lives on them.

all carboydrates end up the same in the digestive system: broken down to simple sugars...that is the way the body absorbs them. the difference??? amount of roughage, composition of various vitamins and minerals, but , in terms of energy, all carbs end up the SAME WAY!

Insulin is released primarily to restore order to the blood sugar balance in the blood: storing fat or sending protein to the muscles are SECONDARY effects of insulin.

The problem is that the body overcompensates, so that, if you eat too many carbs at once, or more importantly, too many SIMPLE carbs at once, the bloodstream gets flooded with more sugars than necessary, in which case, the body releases much more insulin than is necessary, and therefore, not only does it drive the blood sugar out, but the secondary effects are now also amplified.

Therefore, other then ratios of roughage and vitamin/mineral composition, vegetables and starch are identical in how they will end up serving the body, energy wise.


given that you take a good solid multi vitamin pill every day, other than maybe a change in bowel movement, your body will scarcely know the difference between wheat bread and broccoli once it finishes the digestive process.

what WILL impact you , is insulin levels AFTER the digestive process is finished: as the slower it is digested, the more easily the body can regulate the amount of insulin released.

[Baldiewonkanobi]

I first heard of the Cave Man Diet in the 50s. The Cave Man being a hunter/gatherer ate what ever was available. If he came across an apple tree he ate apples all day. Speared a deer....he ate deer meat 'till he popped.
A field of meadow onions...onions it was 'till he could find no more. At the end of a bountiful spring/summer/fall he was fat as a Goose when he waddled into his cave at the first sign of winter. There with some stores of jerky, nuts and grains he lived off his fat like a Bear in hibernation.

I will stick to my diet of chicken, tuna, mixed greens salads, one tomato, and a large Muscle Milk to chase down my Lipos, Omegas and vit/mins.

In June I will reveal the new Snake....

[wulf88]

All, great information....as to why I changed to this type of diet is from multiple reasons.....
1. LDL - HDL is waaaaay bad (triglycerides well w/i normal)
2. Total cholesterol is waay to high
3. BP is high
4. I was diagnosed with Celiacs Disease, but not 100% positive yet

As for foods, I eat about 4-6 servings vegies a day (ie: spinach, broccoli, beats, celery...) and 4-6 servings of fruit. I also eat sweet potatoes, which have a lot of nutrients. As for meat, I am a friggin carnivore, LOL....I usually 2-3 packets of tuna a day, plus chicken, other sea food and beef. Sometimes I eat pork as well. I also consume nuts (almonds and peanuts). I will check into the keto diet as well.

[wulf88]

Also, as to the life span issue. Modern medicine does wonders. People who would have died due to natural selection can now live with medical intervention, not that it is bad. Also, studies have shown that heart disease, cancers etc..were basically non-existant until we went into an agricultural lifestyle.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by Don71

Carve starved.....I think I might of felt that in the first 48 hours. Once my body adjusted I can honestly say I've enever had more energy, atleast not since I was young.

Mornin'....

It seems the real adjustment for the body is getting passed a certain point (maybe the '48 hours' you are noting) where you get used to the feeling of less carbs and knowing the body is working off fat vs. carbs.
I may be oversimplifying a bit here.

Thanks and a gruelling workout to all.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Baldiewonkanobi

I first heard of the Cave Man Diet in the 50s. The Cave Man being a hunter/gatherer ate what ever was available. If he came across an apple tree he ate apples all day. Speared a deer....he ate deer meat 'till he popped.
A field of meadow onions...onions it was 'till he could find no more. At the end of a bountiful spring/summer/fall he was fat as a Goose when he waddled into his cave at the first sign of winter. There with some stores of jerky, nuts and grains he lived off his fat like a Bear in hibernation.

I will stick to my diet of chicken, tuna, mixed greens salads, one tomato, and a large Muscle Milk to chase down my Lipos, Omegas and vit/mins.

In June I will reveal the new Snake....

Yes, that's all very true. And I would love to go back in time to see all this put into practice. Neanderthals are actually my favorite human species. I can relate to them, being short and stocky and cold-tolerant.

The point people miss about a caveman/paleo diet is that the fruits paleo hunter-gatherers ate were only what was in season, and were far less sweet and sugary than today's varieties. In the northern hemisphere there were no bananas or citrus; wild apples and pears were small and hard and not sweet (I have a wild pear tree in my backyard... nasty little buggers! ); most of the fruits were wild berries. You can't go crazy on melons, peaches, nectarines, bananas, pears; etc.

Coach Dan John used to have a good page on what he called the Meat, Leaves and Berries Diet.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Wayne Evans

Mornin'....

It seems the real adjustment for the body is getting passed a certain point (maybe the '48 hours' you are noting) where you get used to the feeling of less carbs and knowing the body is working off fat vs. carbs.
I may be oversimplifying a bit here.

Thanks and a gruelling workout to all.

There is an adaptation period of 1-2 weeks for most people. You can get brainfog, lethargy and generally feel like crap. But after that, you can feel better than you did on higher carbs, especially if you are carb intolerant.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by Minotaur

There is an adaptation period of 1-2 weeks for most people. You can get brainfog, lethargy and generally feel like crap. But after that, you can feel better than you did on higher carbs, especially if you are carb intolerant.

Mornin' Minotaur.....

Yes...especially since the brain relies quite heavily on glucose I would think I would get pretty damned 'lethargic and generally feel like crap'.....and just plain tired feeling.
I start work at 5:15 and if I get a little blurry in my thinking I know it's time for a banana or something similar and I'm feeling energetically better in 10 minutes or less.

Learning, learning.

Thank you.

[Don71]

Originally Posted by JOHN GARGANI

Don: you have several misunderstandings here: first of all, wheat bread, rice and pasta are NOT nutritionally bare, in fact, the greater percentage of the world's population lives on them.

all carboydrates end up the same in the digestive system: broken down to simple sugars...that is the way the body absorbs them. the difference??? amount of roughage, composition of various vitamins and minerals, but , in terms of energy, all carbs end up the SAME WAY!

Insulin is released primarily to restore order to the blood sugar balance in the blood: storing fat or sending protein to the muscles are SECONDARY effects of insulin.

The problem is that the body overcompensates, so that, if you eat too many carbs at once, or more importantly, too many SIMPLE carbs at once, the bloodstream gets flooded with more sugars than necessary, in which case, the body releases much more insulin than is necessary, and therefore, not only does it drive the blood sugar out, but the secondary effects are now also amplified.

Therefore, other then ratios of roughage and vitamin/mineral composition, vegetables and starch are identical in how they will end up serving the body, energy wise.


given that you take a good solid multi vitamin pill every day, other than maybe a change in bowel movement, your body will scarcely know the difference between wheat bread and broccoli once it finishes the digestive process.

what WILL impact you , is insulin levels AFTER the digestive process is finished: as the slower it is digested, the more easily the body can regulate the amount of insulin released.

I pretty much stand by what I said. If you look at the nutritional density of something like spinich or broccoli compared to a slice of bread or rice the green vegetables have many times more ntrients.

My experience and studying might be different than yours but I stand behind what I said.


Also, just because much of the world lives on inferior carbs does make it healthy. Look at the american diet.

I'll stick to KETO.

[Minotaur]

Originally Posted by Don71

I pretty much stand by what I said. If you look at the nutritional density of something like spinich or broccoli compared to a slice of bread or rice the green vegetables have many times more ntrients.

My experience and studying might be different than yours but I stand behind what I said.


Also, just because much of the world lives on inferior carbs does make it healthy. Look at the american diet.

I'll stick to KETO.

The problem with grains today is that they are stripped of their nutrients, and then added back in with something created in a laboratory. That's phony. But how many people would eat rough chewy only slightly raised breads, like our ancestors did? Grain refining started in the Middle Ages when the rich could afford refined grains, which further set them apart from the lower classes.

[Don71]

I agree.

BTW, most of my views these days tend to be influenced by Gironda and GCBC aswell as others. and to a lesser extent as far as comparing carbohydrates, Eat to Live, although I'd never subscribe to his diet the author does put the value of various carbs into perspective.

[PROT]

Processed grains do not have the enzymes or the healing properties of of raw fruits and veggies. Whole grasses such as wheat grass do. They also keep the body healthy by alkalinizing the body. Fruits and vegetables have antioxidant and antifungal properties because they naturally protect themselves from molds and fungus as well as bacterial diseases. These properties accrue to those who consume them. Modern grains are stored in silos or environments which encourage mold and fungal growth and these pathogenic molds are eaten along with the grains. Fungal infections cause unrecognized disease processes and yeast overgrowth is produced by the overuse of sugars from grains and processed foods.

Taubes book points out that need for fiber is a myth and many peoples have lived on animal protein diets exclusively and been far more healthy and energetic than modern man. I believe that this is true of ALL people and some people make excuses for themselves by citing nonexistentent differences in their bodies. Taubes says that carbs are addictive because they break down into sugars and the body loves the "rush". I do, however, believe that meat eating is the primary entree to a lean, healthy body and whey proteins are as artificial as anything and not healthy..Fruits, vegetables, and grasses are in nature to give us a healing touch. A good wheat grass, barley grass, or alfalfa grass will help maintain alkalinity and provide many natural antioxidants. There is a reason you will see "sick" carnivorous animals such as dogs and cats eating grass. Their instincts tell them where to find healing. Processed grains are detrimental to health.

[Wayne Evans]

Originally Posted by PROT

Processed grains do not have the enzymes or the healing properties of of raw fruits and veggies. Whole grasses such as wheat grass do. They also keep the body healthy by alkalinizing the body. Fruits and vegetables have antioxidant and antifungal properties because they naturally protect themselves from molds and fungus as well as bacterial diseases. These properties accrue to those who consume them. Modern grains are stored in silos or environments which encourage mold and fungal growth and these pathogenic molds are eaten along with the grains. Fungal infections cause unrecognized disease processes and yeast overgrowth is produced by the overuse of sugars from grains and processed foods.

Taubes book points out that need for fiber is a myth and many peoples have lived on animal protein diets exclusively and been far more healthy and energetic than modern man. I believe that this is true of ALL people and some people make excuses for themselves by citing nonexistentent differences in their bodies. Taubes says that carbs are addictive because they break down into sugars and the body loves the "rush". I do, however, believe that meat eating is the primary entree to a lean, healthy body and whey proteins are as artificial as anything and not healthy..Fruits, vegetables, and grasses are in nature to give us a healing touch. A good wheat grass, barley grass, or alfalfa grass will help maintain alkalinity and provide many natural antioxidants. There is a reason you will see "sick" carnivorous animals such as dogs and cats eating grass. Their instincts tell them where to find healing. Processed grains are detrimental to health.

Hey PROT.....

For the last 2 1/2 years I have religiously (even weekends) gotten my anti-oxidents in the eating routine with:
Grape juice/cranberries/blueberries/zuchhini/spinach and the like.

I do eat lots of fresh fruits and veggies.
My complex carb intake is not that great in volume and only a little every day.
IE...red potatos, rice, 2 whole grain toast a day, oatmeal daily and very little pasta......although I love that stuff and can eat as much as wooly mammoth if it's in front of me.

Meat....we can thank our transition to becoming meat eating omnivores to the size of our brains.
(I know....I know....there are some I've met in life where that fact has not seemed to help them)

I see your points though about the 'processing/mold' comments with todays' manufactured grains.

Thanks....lots of good info....and a gruelling one to all.

[JOHN GARGANI]

Originally Posted by Don71

I pretty much stand by what I said. If you look at the nutritional density of something like spinich or broccoli compared to a slice of bread or rice the green vegetables have many times more ntrients.

My experience and studying might be different than yours but I stand behind what I said.


Also, just because much of the world lives on inferior carbs does make it healthy. Look at the american diet.

I'll stick to KETO.

but see, this is where you are wrong! Spinach and broccoli are NOT nutritionally dense!

they are mostly fibrous and with water....

and the human body can live LONGER on just rice alone, than it can on spinach alone and that is a fact.

and you missed the point of my post: Spinach and rice are IDENTICAL in terms of carbs, in that, as I was trying to explain, there really isn't "inferior" or "superior" in terms of CARBS ALONE as they will all be broken down by the body to the same exact components.


Protein: is a different story! because different sources of Protein, have different amino acid profiles.

similar to Fats of which could be higher in Essential oils, or higher in trans fats, of which could make a huge difference to the body.


Let me elaborate: this is something I have to explain to some of my patients who are having cavity problems and complain that they are only eating "healthy" snacks in between meals.


their logic, like yours, is that eating an apple between meals is much superior to eating a candy bar: but what I have to explain to them, is that digestion of carbohydrates STARTS in the mouth, as there is an enzyme in the mouth that begins the breakdown of carbohydrates into simple sugars.


the problem lies in the fact that , given enough time, ALL CARBOHYDRATES no matter how "healthy", if they remain in the mouth past a certain time, will be broken down into glucose, and they will begin to start the carious process, regardless of how they started out.

This concept for one specific "organ" of the body ( ie, the mouth) is just one example of how the end result of the body's processes can thwart your original intentions, meaning, in this case, eating what would seem to be an obviously better choice for preventing decay, which, as I pointed out, in some instances may turn out to have just as much decay causing potential as the other choice.