ATG vs Parallel

[ectoBgone]

Anybody?

Probably the best thing would be to post a video if at all possible of you just squatting the bar or some other very low weight ATG. Other than that, I would say varying your foot width and working on flexibility and practicing without any weight every day at home to get the ROM would be beneficial. One thing I had to do was get my hip flexors more flexible. At night, I would crouch down in the ATG position and just hold it as long as I could, with hands behind my head, and work on being able to maintain that position at different stance widths. Good luck!

[namtrag]

I always hear that, it just makes me fall forward even more to put my heels on plates. It seems like putting them under your toes would help you push through your heels more.

[Whiskeyjack]

I always hear that, it just makes me fall forward even more to put my heels on plates. It seems like putting them under your toes would help you push through your heels more.

Your genetic leverages may not require heel support. It's all very individual. I've never seen anybody put plates under toes, though.

[IronCamp]

It likely does have something to do with leverage. Have you ever tried elevating your heels with plates or a piece of wood? That often works.

Thanks. I will give that a try.

Probably the best thing would be to post a video if at all possible of you just squatting the bar or some other very low weight ATG. Other than that, I would say varying your foot width and working on flexibility and practicing without any weight every day at home to get the ROM would be beneficial. One thing I had to do was get my hip flexors more flexible. At night, I would crouch down in the ATG position and just hold it as long as I could, with hands behind my head, and work on being able to maintain that position at different stance widths. Good luck!

The only way I have ever been able to get down in that crouch down position is by coming up on my toes. I have just never been able to do it...that is why I have always assumed it had something to do with how I am built.

I always hear that, it just makes me fall forward even more to put my heels on plates. It seems like putting them under your toes would help you push through your heels more.

It does seem like it would be harder to push through your heels w/plates under them, but I do think it will help some, since the only way I have ever been able to get into the crouch position was to be on my toes.

[chodan9]

I'm going to suggest that maybe it is about ego, if you are choosing to only go to parallel just to squat a heavier weight.

IMO, if you want to get the most benefit from your workout, then do each set with a full Range of Motion. If that means going lighter then so be it - it's still better than doing heavy weight sets with less RoM and an increased risk to your knee joints.

You will notice the point of my post was to not only go to parallel, but to do both "hence the title why not both" , some sets that are lighter and ATG and some set that are heavier and parrallel that focus more on my quads. I have read stating are articles saying that both are fine, So its not something I just made up.
Sure one may be preferrable for one muscle group but the other is prefferable to another group.
plus I have had back surgury so going heavy ATG is not something I'm inclined to do, but I am willing to go lighter with them. I dont do any excercise just to be heavy because I am very cautious about how much weigh my back can take. My knees have never had an issue as far as I can tell with the strain. I can see how you might think it is ego related I suppose but it isnt. Do most people have knee problems not going full ROM?

[kimsquit]

The only way I have ever been able to get down in that crouch down position is by coming up on my toes. I have just never been able to do it...that is why I have always assumed it had something to do with how I am built.

It does seem like it would be harder to push through your heels w/plates under them, but I do think it will help some, since the only way I have ever been able to get into the crouch position was to be on my toes.

from this description, it could be that your hamstrings are too tight - which is the usual cause of rising up onto your toes when squatting deep.

As Ecto suggested, try holding the squat position during activities like watching television or reading.

I'm not an advocate of putting plates under your heels because it doesn't address the root issue of tight hamstrings.

[IronCamp]

from this description, it could be that your hamstrings are too tight - which is the usual cause of rising up onto your toes when squatting deep.

As Ecto suggested, try holding the squat position during activities like watching television or reading.

I'm not an advocate of putting plates under your heels because it doesn't address the root issue of tight hamstrings.

You are most likely right. I am very inflexible and have always felt that my hamstrings are tight. I always feel a pain in my hams when doing stretches. I will practice the squat position as suggested. Should I practice the squat position w/my feet flat on the ground and hold onto something, so I don't fall? Would holding onto something, to prevent me from falling, defeat the purpose?

[IronCamp]

BTW, I just tried to go ATG bare footed and wasn't able to do it, but guess what, I can do it in my 4 inch heels! LOL!

[Defiant1]

I did not want to distract from Bodyhard's thread on squats, so I will pose the question here. In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go, and that you may as well call parallel partial. In my opinion parallel is fine. It has less glute recruitment, but allows you to go heavier. I feel some miss out on the benefits of going heavier just to get a bit more ROM.

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

Depends on the person. ATG destroys my knees, period. Yet I can bury hack squats while many people can't.

Depending on your physique/leverages/proportions, you will get different results.

The answer? Use the range of motion that hits YOU where YOU want, that does not injure you.

I have seen evidence that ATG is best.

There is also evidence that less than ATG is best:

http://www.ms-se.com/pt/re/msse/abst...195628!8091!-1

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...1993.tb00389.x

To me, it is like the "Bench Press vs Dumbbell Press" issue.

It simply depends on the individual.

[namtrag]

You mean bodybuilders are supposed to stretch? No one ever told me! lol

[lukamar]

I can do it in my 4 inch heels! LOL!

Could you post a pic...

[kimsquit]

You will notice the point of my post was to not only go to parallel, but to do both "hence the title why not both" , some sets that are lighter and ATG and some set that are heavier and parrallel that focus more on my quads.

I understood your post just fine

I have read stating are articles saying that both are fine, So its not something I just made up.
Sure one may be preferrable for one muscle group but the other is prefferable to another group.

it may not be something you made up, but just because someone wrote it in an article doesn't necessarily make it true. It's the author's opinion that one may be preferable for one muscle group and the other is preferrable for the other group but it's a big leap from opinion to fact.

plus I have had back surgury so going heavy ATG is not something I'm inclined to do, but I am willing to go lighter with them. I dont do any excercise just to be heavy because I am very cautious about how much weigh my back can take. My knees have never had an issue as far as I can tell with the strain. I can see how you might think it is ego related I suppose but it isnt.

my suggestion is to look at it this way:

a full RoM strengthens not only the muscles but the tendons and ligaments as well. IMO, many lifting injuries are a result of muscles being stronger than the tendons and then the tendon's & ligaments failing. Muscles grow stronger at a faster rate than ligaments & tendons anyway, so accellerating that difference by not completing a full RoM is a recipe for injury.

It takes longer to add weight to the bar with a full RoM but the payoff is that you're growing the entire biomechanical structure of the limb and not focusing on the muscle portion of it.

IMO, people ought to pay just as much attention to tendon and ligament growth as they do to muscle growth.

Do most people have knee problems not going full ROM?

most people doen't even go to parallel

[PeteB]

from this description, it could be that your hamstrings are too tight - which is the usual cause of rising up onto your toes when squatting deep...

I believe that is correct (not that you need a second opinion). I ran into this after one of my five (!) knee injuries. The doctor I was seeing at the time advised against putting a 1x4 under my heels, which is what I had started doing, and just keep stretching the hamstrings and legs in general until I got the full range of motion back.

Another interesting thing is that you often see kids under 10 squatting down on their heels for a length of time and then standing up very easily, while adults usually lift their heels as they go down, and rock forward on the balls of their feet as they stand up.

[IronCamp]

BTW, I just tried to go ATG bare footed and wasn't able to do it, but guess what, I can do it in my 4 inch heels! LOL!

LOL...I figured someone would say that.

I was actually posting that b/c I found it interesting that when elevating my heels (as suggested by a prior poster), I was able to go ATG.

I believe that is correct (not that you need a second opinion). I ran into this after one of my five (!) knee injuries. The doctor I was seeing at the time advised against putting a 1x4 under my heels, which is what I had started doing, and just keep stretching the hamstrings and legs in general until I got the full range of motion back.

Another interesting thing is that you often see kids under 10 squatting down on their heels for a length of time and then standing up very easily, while adults usually lift their heels as they go down, and rock forward on the balls of their feet as they stand up.

My daughter (who is 2 1/2) easily stays in the ATG position for several minutes and has no problem getting up. I always wondered why kids were able to do it so much easier.

[PeteB]

I can do it in my 4 inch heels! LOL!

If you usually wear shoes w. high heels, your calf muscles may shorten to compensate for the position of the foot, so that may be another factor. I am not 100% sure how that affects a full squat, but if that is the case, using heel blocks just might be the correct thing to do.

[Defiant1]

My daughter (who is 2 1/2) easily stays in the ATG position for several minutes.....

Why don't you spot her?

[Whiskeyjack]

If you usually wear shoes w. high heels, your calf muscles may shorten to compensate for the position of the foot, so that may be another factor. I am not 100% sure how that affects a full squat, but if that is the case, using heel blocks just might be the correct thing to do.

Chris may be right about the hamstrings being the problem with attempting ATG positions, but I've known others who need heel support because of leverages - long thigh to short calf or vice versa (I don't remember which) etc., and in some tall people. This really emerges in olympic lifting, where both "events" involve by necessity very deep positions, as do the various exercises done to master them.

It could be either the hamstring or the leverage issue. Or both. It's wise to see which it is. As Defiant said, in the end it's individual.

I've done squats with and without heel support myself and both have worked; I did not use supports when I powerlifted, but I did use olympic lifting shoes (which have built in heel support) when I dabbled with olympic lifting. Sometimes I'll wear them when squatting now. But then I have good genetics for squatting deep. I feel for those who do not.

[jude-o]

I like full range of motion squats because:

1. It helps keep me flexible.

2. It helps keep me honest; I know I won't start squatting shallower and shallower as the weight goes up.

3. Better recruitment of hip/hamstring muscles.

[martinelli]

In the bottom position, the inguinal fold (the crease between the thigh and your reproductive organs) must be lower than the level of the patella (kneecap) in order to save the kneecap from taking the brunt of the force and instead transmit it to a more powerful muscle, the glutes. Squatting down to parallel should not be seen as an option, as it does not save the knees. It is never explicitly said, but "correct squats" and "ATG squats" should be synonymous, if only to demonstrate to the trainee that below parallel, not parallel, will sustain longevity with this lift.

[=M=]

You are most likely right. I am very inflexible and have always felt that my hamstrings are tight. I always feel a pain in my hams when doing stretches. I will practice the squat position as suggested. Should I practice the squat position w/my feet flat on the ground and hold onto something, so I don't fall? Would holding onto something, to prevent me from falling, defeat the purpose?

I have a similar problem, only it seems to be more ankle related. My right ankle is more flexible than my left (never injured), so I use a plate under my left heel, but not the right. (still can't go much below parellel though )

My hubby says I'm as flexible as a pretzel stick.

[Guff]

Could you post a pic...

Down boy down!


These teenagers from misc always coming in here!

[dsharp9000]

I did not want to distract from Bodyhard's thread on squats, so I will pose the question here. In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go, and that you may as well call parallel partial. In my opinion parallel is fine. It has less glute recruitment, but allows you to go heavier. I feel some miss out on the benefits of going heavier just to get a bit more ROM.

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

Any time you dont use full rom; you are not using the complete range of the muscles involved. In essence, if you only go to parallel, you have essentially turned the squat into an isolation exercise for quads. When i do only partial squat reps, it feels more like a leg press working my legs. When i do a full squat, it feels like a squat.

[chodan9]

most people doen't even go to parallel

good point LOL

I normally do legs on thursday morning but had to postpone my workout today "normally shoulders" and due to work I cant work out tomorrow morning.
So with this thread in mind I decided to do legs,"got to take off early because I'm doing a midnight project"
I got there and loaded up the bar on the squat rack "after some cardio" with a plate and started doing ATG squats, did a couple sets and added more weight and did another couple sets I hadnt gone really heavy yet. I got to thinking that the movement and muscle groups worked in a half rom squat are pretty much the same as those worked in the leg press, only you can go much heavier on the leg press.
So I spotted the flaw in my logic,
that being, why go heavy on parallel squats when I can go very heavy on leg press and work the muscles I am targetting better.
this way I can get more sets in ATG, hitting more muscle groups, and also isolate the quads with the leg press, both with less worry of injury.
That make sense?

[beachstoyboy]

Read up and let me know if you still have the same opinion when your done......

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...light=parallel

Thanks, some good info there. To be honest, the stuff about the danger to the knees is reason enough to give ATG a shot.

[beachstoyboy]

I'm going to suggest that maybe it is about ego, if you are choosing to only go to parallel just to squat a heavier weight.

I will admit that for me it is at least a little about ego, but only in that one of my goals is to be stronger, and I was under the impression that using heavier weight through a good ROM (though not as good as ATG) would be of greater benefit to my quads and hams (I seem to use a form between bodybuilder and PL), with only the glutes being sacrificed. But taking into consideration all the info about knees and tendons and ligaments, I may give ATG a shot and see how the legs respond.

[beachstoyboy]

Thank you all for the responses. I didn't think it would be on page 2 before I got home. Lots if good information and opinions. I guess like with anything else, listen to your body and perform the greatest ROM possible.

[Luke Whippo]

from someone who uses both style IMO I get far better tendon training from lockouts (hold weights at lockout) than the fullest ROM, but thats me.

and I really agree that tendons should be paid attention to as they seem to protect injurys, but thats just a guess.

[widebody195]

I attempt to go as far down as I can, which is a bit past parallel, but I have never been able to go all the way down. If I were to go any further, I would fall backwards. Even when going just a bit past parallel, I have to lean my chest forward in an attempt to not fall back. I always wondered if this had something to do with my build, as I carry a lot of my weight in my rear and legs. Any ideas?

Your theory is about build is probably right on. I've got big quads and hips so it's hard to keep from falling backwards when going really deep. I tried ATG for a while but it sometimes put my back at a scary angle, so it's back to parallel squats for me.

[Bodysteele]

I can GUARANTEE YOU, 80% of the folks talking about developing issues due to changing over from parallel to ATG had it develop bc of ONE SOLE REASON:

TOO MUCH WEIGHT ON THE BAR.

IMHO, the majority if not the VAST MAJORITY of issues arising from any type of squats is due to people trying to squat as much as is possible and to me thats simply a fundamentally flawed approach.

IF YOU ARE SQUATTING RIGHT AT YOUR MAXIMAL LIMITS I CAN ALMOST GUARANTEE YOUR FORM IS GONNA BE TOTAL CRAP, AND YOUR BIOMECHANICS WILL BE THROWN OUT OF WHACK. For almost everyone I observe this is true.

How many times will you watch a kid/guy/gal squat and look awesome for 3-4 sets and flawless in warmups....go deep...stay back, work glutes/hammies/ and quads...etc. etc. and then on the last or last 2-3 sets when the weight gets close to maximal their form will TOTALLY breakdown.

THE SECRET IS NOT GOING TO MAXIMAL WEIGHTS UNLESS YOU ARE A PLer, bc like I said you will in most cases be NECESSARILY SACRIFICING FORM.

The other side of too much weight is LEARNING TO ATG properly.

How can you expect to learn an a highly technical movement by using weights that challenge you to such a degree that you cannot concentrate on mechanics?

You cant, it is impossible, and I defy anyone to disagree.

EVERYONE INTERESTED IN ATG squatting WITHOUT EXCEPTION should at a MINIMUM be doing BW squats in front of a mirror for 3-4 weeks, and move on from there after mastering the movement with stick behind their head or something.

I started BW squats probably 14 months ago....10 months ago I went from DB to BB squats and was repping 170lbs....now I am about to be ATGing 315lbs in the next few weeks.

Patience can work wonders.

p.s. My knees are absolutely amazing...I mean they havent felt better for years the ATGing has actually improvent them. Nowone ive ever worked with on squatting has had a lot of knee discomfort while squatting PROPERLY and with a REASONABLE AMOUNT OF WEIGHT ATG.

Thats certainly anecdotal....but worth mentioning I believe.

[Bodysteele]

Your theory is about build is probably right on. I've got big quads and hips so it's hard to keep from falling backwards when going really deep. I tried ATG for a while but it sometimes put my back at a scary angle, so it's back to parallel squats for me.

Chest should NATURALLY come forward a bit....knees should NATURALLY track over and past the toes.

Watch a child squat......