ATG vs Parallel

[beachstoyboy]

I did not want to distract from Bodyhard's thread on squats, so I will pose the question here. In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go, and that you may as well call parallel partial. In my opinion parallel is fine. It has less glute recruitment, but allows you to go heavier. I feel some miss out on the benefits of going heavier just to get a bit more ROM.

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

[lukamar]

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

I have my people do full ROM. Heavy isn't always a benefit if you don't have good form and from what i have seen as the weight goes up, along with the ego boost, form drops off in proportion. If you don't call parallel a partial then what constitutes one 5 degrees, that's a partial as well and you could probably get a clean 200 more if you just bent your knees slightly. A squat is ATG a parallel squat is just that a parallel partial squat. IMHO

[gbg]

One recruits a muscle more than the other.

[wardbond5]

paralell is easier on my rhoids.

I know....too much information.

[Mr. Someday]

Read up and let me know if you still have the same opinion when your done......

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...light=parallel

[ServoScanMan]

My preference is ATG only because I also want to work my glutes. I can't lift as much weight but I'm ok with that because I figure I am saving my knees.

IMO, it really doesn't matter which one you prefer. Just do them. It seems, I am the only one at our YMCA using the squat cage. Poor, lonely squat cage. It needs a friend to. LOL.

[Mark1T]

Just came back home from doing ATG Squats and legs. Parallel Squats put more stress on my knees because it is like braking when you get there. To make sure I go ATG, I can see and feel myself at parallel and when I get there without stopping, I sort of relax my knees and go a few inches lower, then power out.

It is just a matter of training and patience.

[Skidmarx]

paralell is easier on my rhoids.

So they don't scrape the ground?

[Dave76]

I am a member at a powerlifting gym so I can make some comments from that viewpoint. For bodybuilding purposes, I am totally unqualified to make a comment.

From a powerlifting standpoint, a squat is legal if the crease at the hips (where the leg meet the torso) is below the top of the patella. Obviously, if you're competing to see who can squat the most weight, you don't want to go any deeper than you have to go.

Beyond the obvious...

On the descent, you want a tightness in the hamstrings. As you hit the bottom of the squat, you get a rebound from the hamstring tightness, using them kind of like a coiled spring. Most people have a sticking point slightly above parallel and the "bounce" gives you some upward momentum to get through that point.

If you go ATG, you can't get that bounce. The average person cannot go ATG and still keep tightness in the hamstrings. The hams simply won't stretch that far. Watch someone go ATG and, more often than not, you'll see the butt round underneath the body at the bottom. It's called "butt wink" in PL circles. When you see butt wink, it's because the hams have relaxed.

As a bodybuilder, you probably don't care about all of this. Fair enough. My only caution would be that butt wink is also a rounding of the lower back. I do not compete in any kind of PL events so, this is the point that's important to me. I don't want to go so deep that I lose the arch in the lower back.

FWIW, a PL squat is a real workout for the posterior chain. Because of work and illness, I didn't squat for two weeks. When I returned to squatting, I was so sore that I could barely walk. All of the soreness was in the hamstrings, none at all in the quads. I suppose that's anecdotal evidence that a PL squat is not the best exercise for quad development.

[CrazyEnough]

Just came back home from doing ATG Squats and legs. Parallel Squats put more stress on my knees because it is like braking when you get there.

Precisely sums up my thoughts on it.

[namtrag]

I just go as low as I can without lifting my heels.

[Luke Whippo]

In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go,

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

ATG is the way to go, only I like parallel and partials starting from the bottom, IMO those are what built me to where I could improve my ATG squats, so it's not the ONLY way to go.

but they are challenging for sure, and when done in higher reps, they build something in me thats differant, I believe in being "allround" I just favor the squats/deads over the bench.

[someday]

I just go as low as I can without lifting my heels.

this is actually a very good point! if you are trying to do atg squats with crappy form you won't get any more benefit from them. i've seen many a guys lift their heels and lose thier balance....not a good thing to do with a bunch of weight on the bar.

i physically can't squat atg because of a very old hip injury. even without any weight at all no matter where i place my feet my pelvis and femur actually lock together and will not allow me to bend any further. hubby always gives me **** about it, but it's kind of like me saying to him "just reach down and put your hands on the floor to stretch your hammies".....he physically can't even though it's no problem for me. so for me parrallel is full rom not a partial!

[Cgb6810]

I did not want to distract from Bodyhard's thread on squats, so I will pose the question here. In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go, and that you may as well call parallel partial. In my opinion parallel is fine. It has less glute recruitment, but allows you to go heavier. I feel some miss out on the benefits of going heavier just to get a bit more ROM.

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

Ive done parallel for years. But in an effort to gain more mass on my legs and increase overall development I started to go ATG a few months back. Now my knee has developed a pain it's not had before. Squatting has become a secondary exercise for legs now seeing that I can't lift the weight I once did without debilitating pain.

Im sure growing older hasnt helped this situation. But I wish I hadnt pushed the envelope.

A friend of mine, fellow bodybuilder, recently had his meniscus repaired. He was also doing ATG squats. The doc told him the squat was the worst exercise for his knees. And, when going down very low, the calf pushing into the hamstring puts a force on the kneecap not unlike dislocating the joint.

Another national level female masters bodybuilder I work out with developed a back problem while doing ATG squats. She lost feeling in one of her legs and had horrible back pain. Her vertebrae have shifted. She's getting some kind of injections in her back. But the Doc says she may have to have her vertebrae fused.

This is the over 35 forum. So I will say, just be careful and start with a light weight and work into any change in your routine. Don't max out until you've become accustomed to any new movement. In the cases above, there's no doubt intensity was high.

[ALBPM]

I have a different twist on my Leg workouts. I'm a serious believer in pre-exhausting before doing Squats.

I do 5 sets alternating between extensions and hamstring curls. After that it's 5 sets of seated leg presses and then Squats(5 sets). I will then finish with 2-3 super sets of extensions / hamstring curls.

This sounds like a lot but I inherently have ecto-chicken legs and this was what finally got them to grow.

I started the pre-exhaust before Squats routine from having a training partner with knee problems. I've never had any knee or leg injuries from this routine. You won't be able to go as heavy on the squats but you will feel them. I go slightly below parallel.

[ProOne]

I am a member at a powerlifting gym so I can make some comments from that viewpoint. For bodybuilding purposes, I am totally unqualified to make a comment.

From a powerlifting standpoint, a squat is legal if the crease at the hips (where the leg meet the torso) is below the top of the patella. Obviously, if you're competing to see who can squat the most weight, you don't want to go any deeper than you have to go.

Beyond the obvious...

On the descent, you want a tightness in the hamstrings. As you hit the bottom of the squat, you get a rebound from the hamstring tightness, using them kind of like a coiled spring. Most people have a sticking point slightly above parallel and the "bounce" gives you some upward momentum to get through that point.

If you go ATG, you can't get that bounce. The average person cannot go ATG and still keep tightness in the hamstrings. The hams simply won't stretch that far. Watch someone go ATG and, more often than not, you'll see the butt round underneath the body at the bottom. It's called "butt wink" in PL circles. When you see butt wink, it's because the hams have relaxed.

As a bodybuilder, you probably don't care about all of this. Fair enough. My only caution would be that butt wink is also a rounding of the lower back. I do not compete in any kind of PL events so, this is the point that's important to me. I don't want to go so deep that I lose the arch in the lower back.

FWIW, a PL squat is a real workout for the posterior chain. Because of work and illness, I didn't squat for two weeks. When I returned to squatting, I was so sore that I could barely walk. All of the soreness was in the hamstrings, none at all in the quads. I suppose that's anecdotal evidence that a PL squat is not the best exercise for quad development.

Excellent post...reps

[IronCamp]

I attempt to go as far down as I can, which is a bit past parallel, but I have never been able to go all the way down. If I were to go any further, I would fall backwards. Even when going just a bit past parallel, I have to lean my chest forward in an attempt to not fall back. I always wondered if this had something to do with my build, as I carry a lot of my weight in my rear and legs. Any ideas?

[Mark1T]

This may or may not help anyone, but to me it is important. What has really helped me progress more than anything, besides progressive weights, is spending more time warming up the legs and the CNS.

I have tried riding the stationary bike for a warm-up before, but that for some reason hurt my knees - I know, odd. Now, I start off with Calves and between each set I do Body-Squats, 3 sets of 10. When I warm up for Squats, I start with the bar and am still warming up the CNS at 275lbs. Then, I do my working sets and it feels great. For my heavy (heavy for me) sets I wrap my knees, which helps a lot.

[Mr. Someday]

A friend of mine, fellow bodybuilder, recently had his meniscus repaired. He was also doing ATG squats. The doc told him the squat was the worst exercise for his knees. And, when going down very low, the calf pushing into the hamstring puts a force on the kneecap not unlike dislocating the joint.

The doc should read up on the science, which does not back him up. I posted a bunch of study links and excerpts in the thread I linked to above. Parallel has been shown in many studies to create far more pressure on the knee than below parallel.

[Arlecchino]

One of the keys to avoid knee pain when squatting (regardless of depth) is to focus on strengthening the posterior chain. In this case more hamstring and lower back work. Not just leg curl type movements, but movements were the torso extends, such as SLDL/RDL, reverse hypers, good mornings, pull-throughs, etc.

Far too many routines have a lot of quad work but far less hamstring work.

[Joe Go]

Once I feel a full stretch in my hamstrings I stop and explode back up. I keep my legs flexed like I'm in a standing relaxed pose when I'm standing up and make darn sure I don't lock my knees at the top.

[namtrag]

Does anyone know how many hundreds of ATG vs parallel threads we have had? lol

I think it is a close second to the HIIT vs steady state cardio threads, or the please help me help my dad with a routine threads.

[Cgb6810]

The doc should read up on the science, which does not back him up. I posted a bunch of study links and excerpts in the thread I linked to above. Parallel has been shown in many studies to create far more pressure on the knee than below parallel.

I hear ya. My family doc doesnt even like me taking protein.

But on the other hand, Ive never had knee pain squatting up to 675 until I started going below parallel. Im sure my age doesnt help. But I have to associate the fact I dropped lower then normal and then had problems.

[chodan9]

I begin with light weigh for warmups and do ATG "with 135"
I do a couple sets of those then ad 50 or more pounds and do another set ATG.
I then do parralel for my heavier work,
I want to work with heavier weights to get that benefit as mentioned so I do anything over 200 pounds parrallel everything below ATG at least until ATG is easier over 200.
Its not about ego for me its about getting the most benefit from my workout.

[Skidmarx]

please help me help my dad with a routine threads.

I was just going to start one of those but my dad had a sex change and is now my mom, so I'm confused.

[kimsquit]

Its not about ego for me its about getting the most benefit from my workout.

I'm going to suggest that maybe it is about ego, if you are choosing to only go to parallel just to squat a heavier weight.

IMO, if you want to get the most benefit from your workout, then do each set with a full Range of Motion. If that means going lighter then so be it - it's still better than doing heavy weight sets with less RoM and an increased risk to your knee joints.

[Mark1T]

I'm going to suggest that maybe it is about ego, if you are choosing to only go to parallel just to squat a heavier weight.

IMO, if you want to get the most benefit from your workout, then do each set with a full Range of Motion. If that means going lighter then so be it - it's still better than doing heavy weight sets with less RoM and an increased risk to your knee joints.

Negged for making too much sense

[Whiskeyjack]

I did not want to distract from Bodyhard's thread on squats, so I will pose the question here. In the thread, many were of the opinion that ATG was the only way to go, and that you may as well call parallel partial. In my opinion parallel is fine. It has less glute recruitment, but allows you to go heavier. I feel some miss out on the benefits of going heavier just to get a bit more ROM.

My question is this? Which do you do and why?

I've done both and gotten results both ways. I've known others do one or the other, based on their genetics/leverage, and they've gotten good results with either.

In the end I think it's rather individual. The problem is that some people overload the bar for parallel and end up not getting down as far as parallel, which is a shame. I see that all the time, even with relatively experienced lifters.

[IronCamp]

I attempt to go as far down as I can, which is a bit past parallel, but I have never been able to go all the way down. If I were to go any further, I would fall backwards. Even when going just a bit past parallel, I have to lean my chest forward in an attempt to not fall back. I always wondered if this had something to do with my build, as I carry a lot of my weight in my rear and legs. Any ideas?

Anybody?

[Whiskeyjack]

Anybody?

It likely does have something to do with leverage. Have you ever tried elevating your heels with plates or a piece of wood? That often works.