Creatine --RED BULL Delivery system

[KomeBakKid]

Has anyone tried to take creatine with RED BULL. I am thiking that the mixture of the caffine and sugar on top of the carbonation which would open up your pylorick valve in your stomac delivering your creatine to your small intestines where 70% of your digestion takes place. Always looking for an edge. What do you all think?

[Psycorower]

You should know that caffeine and creatine shouldn't be mixed.

[Mark142]

Originally posted by Psycorower
You should know that caffeine and creatine shouldn't be mixed.

Q: I heard that creatine and caffeine can be consumed at the same time. But an article I read claims caffeine inhibits the absorption of creatine into muscle tissue. Which is true?

A: There was a controversial research study published in 1996 in the Journal of Applied Physiology about creatine and caffeine; however, if you study that article closely, you'll find that caffeine had no effect on creatine uptake into muscle. A more recent study by Vanakoski, et al. in 1998 investigated the pharmacokinetics of caffeine and creatine, both alone and in combination. They reported when creatine was used alone or even in combination with caffeine that, "creatine was rapidly and efficiently absorbed, as reflected by plasma concentrations." Because researchers concluded that creatine was efficiently absorbed even when combined with caffeine, it does not appear from the results of this study that caffeine exerts a negative effect on the uptake of creatine into muscle tissue.

[institutional]

Originally posted by KomeBakKid
Has anyone tried to take creatine with RED BULL. I am thiking that the mixture of the caffine and sugar on top of the carbonation which would open up your pylorick valve in your stomac delivering your creatine to your small intestines where 70% of your digestion takes place. Always looking for an edge. What do you all think?

i think your an idiot.

[Psycorower]

Have you got the reference for, Vanakoski, et al. in 1998, cos i cant seem to find it on ovid or bmj or medline, need another parameter or two i think. Too many studies by people called Vanakoski.

It would be interesting to see the study design as i thought it was generally an accepted mechanism by which caffeine causes inhibition of muscle phosphocreatine resynthesis after creatine loading.

Caffeine is still a useful ergogenic aid i agree after complete abstinence during a loading cycle and reintroduction for use in short intermittant exercise bouts however this is only if caffeine ingestion is acute.

Also, you should really not be so quick in dismissing a great number of well desinged studies in light of one new article supplying evidence contrary to the norm. Just look at the fibre and colorectal cancer argument - a subject which was thought to be completely black and white until SEVERAL significant studies were published. Now after several more years, the conclusion appears to be exactly as was first believed. People will always try to manipulate data sets in order to obtain evidence to support their theories, which is why i'd like a look at the Methodology just to check.

Independantly, Cr and Ca have certainly have their uses but for bodybuilding purposes Cr is undeniably of more benefit. Therefore, possible inhibition of Cr by Ca would be best avoided until such time as the answer is set in stone. I'll have a look about and will chat to some of my colleuges tomorrow and see if they can cite me some evidence supporting either perspective.

Cheers.

[Psycorower]

Dont worry about the reference i found it.
The study size is tiny (7 subjects), and also the main hypothesis tested is the effect of creatine on caffeine pharmacokinetics not vice versa. Also the conclusion was that administration of creatine did not improve maximal performance and subsequent recovery nor did it improve aerobic performance. I am sure you will agree that these findings and hypotheses makes the study completely useless for our argument anyway.

[SupaNatural]

K. Vandenberghe performed a study published in the Journal of Applied Physiology in which he tried to determine the effects of caffeine on creatine. The study consisted of three groups.

The first group supplemented with creatine (Cr) alone,

the second group supplemented with creatine and caffeine (Cr + C),

and the third group was given a placebo. The following quotation summarizes the results of the study:

"Muscle ATP concentration remained constant over the three experimental conditions. Cr and Cr + C increased muscle concentration by 4-6%. Dynamic torque production, however, was increased by 10-23% by Cr but was not changed by Cr + C. Torque improvement during Cr was most prominent immediately after the two minute rest between the exercise bouts. The data shows that supplementation elevates muscle per concentration and markedly improves performance during intense intermittent exercise. The torque effect, however, is completely eliminated by caffeine intake."

In conclusion, it would help to not consume much caffeine while using creatine because, according to this study, caffeine consumption with creatine supplementation eliminates torque improvement during workout.

(source Creatine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Vanderberghe K, et al. J Appl. Physiol. 1996; 80(2); 452-7)

[SupaNatural]

creatine vs. caffeine thread

Originally posted by Ras
It is counterproductive to take a diuretic during a creatine cycle, herbal or other. On the general topic, acute caffeine intake will prolong relaxation/recovery time, thus counteracting the recovery-enhancing effects of creatine. This simply implies that the pharmacokinetics are working with opposing purposes; they in fact don't seem to interact directly at all. I have read nothing that suggests that creatine absorption is affected by concomittant administration of caffeine.

[SupaNatural]

Caffeine/Creatine, whats the deal?

Originally posted by fabiensf
Here is another article:


"Obviously, creatine finds its way into skeletal muscle after being ingested. But, how is this process actually accomplished?

From the blood stream creatine is transported into skeletal muscle via the action of transporter molecules distributed along the muscle surface. These are the molecular doors that allow creatine into muscle cells. Our physiological status determines how well these molecular doors work at letting in creatine. For example, the amount of sodium outside the muscle cell, the extramuscular sodium, regulates the activity of these transporter molecules. In this respect, an elevation of extramuscular sodium promotes creatine entry via these transporters.

Based on earlier studies showing that caffeine increases extramuscular sodium, it was proposed that caffeine should augment creatine transport into muscle cells and accentuate the benefits of creatine. Oddly, however, caffeine has the opposite effect than initially expected. Caffeine actually interferes with the enhancement of physical performance afforded by creatine.

The Study

A recent study specifically looked at the consequences of caffeine consumption on the physical benefit normally afforded by creatine supplementation. The study consisted of a cross over design, which simply means that the subjects were divided into either experimental (caffeine and creatine) or control (creatine alone) groups, tested after a week, switched of conditions and then retested.

Nine males participated in the study. Their ages ranged between 20 and 23 years. Initially both groups were given 0.5 grams of creatine/kilogram of body weight for six days. This amount is slightly greater than the typically prescribed loading dose. In addition, the experimental group was also given 0.005 grams of caffeine per kilogram of body weight on days 4, 5 and 6. Therefore, for the last three days of supplementation the experimental group consumed both creatine and caffeine. On the seventh day their physical performance was tested using knee extension torque measurements. This is one entire day after the last dose caffeine.

After a washout period of 3 weeks the groups were switched, such that the experimentals (caffeine and creatine) became controls (creatine alone) and visa versa. The experiment was repeated. In this respect the effect of caffeine could be compared within each individual.

The Result

Caffeine consumption negated the physical benefit observed in the creatine group. Surprisingly, the effect of caffeine was observed one entire day after the last dose. This finding was at first paradoxical, because caffeine, at least initially, was proposed to increased creatine absorption into skeletal muscle via its effect on extramuscular sodium.

The amount of caffeine used in this study is equivalent to 2-3 strong cups of coffee for an average sized male, or 350 mg of caffeine for a 70 kilogram (154 pound) male. One important detail might be that caffeine was administered in the form of capsules.

Interestingly, caffeine did not interfere with the rise in muscular phosphocreatine associated with creatine loading. Remember that phosphocreatine is the biologically active form of creatine found within cells. In other words, caffeine neither decreased (nor increased, as expected) creatine transport at the muscle surface. Its inhibitory effect was felt after creatine had entered and formed phophocreatine.

A Possible Resolution

Coordinated movement is the result of opposing muscle groups contracting and relaxing in unison. For example, when performing a curl our biceps (front of arm) contract into a ball, whereas our triceps (back of arm) relax and lengthen. On the downward movement, the triceps contract and the biceps relax.

Another example is sprinting. A sprinter initiates a stride by contracting the front muscles and relaxing the back muscles of one leg. To move forward, however, he must then quickly relax the front muscles and contract the back muscles of that leg, so that his other leg can shoot forward. Therefore, muscle relaxation is part of coordinated movement and thus speed.

Calcium is what causes muscles to either contract or relax. A muscle contracts when calcium is released from storage sites deep inside the muscle. In other words, free calcium is the signal that tells a muscle to contract. Likewise, our muscles relax when calcium is reabsorbed into these internal storage sites. However, the restorage of calcium is an energetically expensive process and in this manner muscle relaxation cost us energy. The energy that pays for muscle relaxation comes from phosphocreatine!

Dr. Hepel's group in Belgium has elegantly shown that phosphocreatine levels determine muscle relaxation rate. When our muscle phosphocreatine levels are high, as a result of supplementation, our muscles relax more rapidly. Conversely, when our phosphocreatine stores are low, muscle relaxation is slowed and our exercise performance drops.

Although caffeine doesn't alter phosphocreatine levels, caffeine may nevertheless retard muscle relaxation by altering muscle calcium levels. Interestingly, caffeine is known to release calcium form internal stores. As outlined previously, this would slow muscle relaxation and jeopardize exercise performance, despite caffeine's know stimulatory properties. Therefore, caffeine may negate creatine's benefit by liberating internal calcium and thereby slowing muscle relaxation time

False Rumors

Caffeine is a diuretic, meaning that it increases the excretion of water from the body in the urine. There are rumors that caffeine counteracts creatine by interfering with muscle volumizing. This is simply a false rumor and assumes that water retention by skeletal muscle is the source of strength. Although increasing the girth (volume) of our muscles, volumizing per se has no proven effect on strength

Take Home

If you pump up on caffeine prior to working out, while at the same time supplementing with creatine monohydrate to increase exercise performance, you could be wasting your time and money. Avoid this practice!

However, it must be mentioned that not all studies demonstrate an inhibitory effect of caffeine on the benefits afforded by creatine and may be a result of how creatine was administered, ie whether in liquid or tablet form.

Scientific References

Vandenberghe K, Gillis N, Van Leemputte M, Van Hecke P, Vanstapel F, Hespel P. (February 1996) Caffeine counteracts the ergogenic action of muscle creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 80:2: pages 452-457.

Van Leemputte M, Vandenberghe K, Hespel P. (March 1999). Shortening of muscle relaxation time after creatine loading. Journal of Applied Physiology Volume 86:3: pages 840-844."