Stop making stuff up to prove a non valid point then.
Im just saying its dumb for a skinny kid to worry about how big his arms are. When you lift for awhile(no finite number) and you start to notice things then start hitting them. Im not saying wait till he's 300lbs to start curling, but build a litter mass first before you worry about iso movements.
He told me to take a college class, I replied that I am taking one. I also dont follow rip
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01-19-2013, 02:11 PM #31
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01-19-2013, 02:15 PM #32
So, I didn't mean to start a controversy. Despite what one of you mentioned, I actually don't look at big guys online and think "I need bigger arms"; I just look in the mirror with my shirt on and think "I look exactly the same as I did 5 months ago". (Shirt off is a different story.)
I mean, strength is of course nice to have but I'm just going for a "well-rounded" look. My arms definitely look thinner than the average person's, which is something I would like to correct, so I guess my question more explicitly stated is: do I need to do biceps-specific work for this?
It seems many of you have indicated the answer is yes. I added some curls yesterday and I really feel them today so I think this is going to help. Thanks!
Also of note: One of you mentioned that triceps are more important than biceps with regards to arm size. I actually have improved quite a bit on this. I started parallel dips with 25 pounds of assistance and now I am at 25 pounds added.Last edited by Runner4; 01-19-2013 at 02:22 PM.
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01-19-2013, 02:26 PM #33
- Join Date: May 2011
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01-19-2013, 02:38 PM #34
Runner, I been working out for just a couple more months than you. I did a program that was heavy into isolations and high reps, one that is hypertrophy focused. I had the opposite results as you. I was the guy with 15 in arms that couldn't bench as much as the skinny kid with his 13 in arms. On arm day, after a good pump, I can get 16" out of my arms. I bet you still bench more than me, lol. PR is 180 x 6
Don't hesitate to try a different routine, switching up can keep things interesting.
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01-19-2013, 02:45 PM #35
Just using a "fancy" word bro, not a big deal. Is that all you took from my entire post? If so, reread.
They didn't need to say that they shouldn't be. But, the OP is obviously a beginner so I pointed it out. .
You know SEVERAL people in realife that can row 300-400 and have NON-EXISTENT...NON-EXISTENT BICEPS?! Yes CAPS lock for yelling, because you sound ridiculous.
THIS. I doubt a beginner has a lagging bodypart since his entire body part is lagging. Notice I also mentioned that a couple are ok in certain areas(gave reference to lat raises or tricep extensions). I`m not against isolations, I do them almost every workout I do, but for a beginner, theres bigger things to focus on. Save the calories/energy.
You're right there, good point, a routine that is 100% compounds will not build calves. I agree, so, next time I make mention of this topic I`ll be sure to say, although, the calves dont really get worked by these compound movements. However, I still don't think a noob without any experience, coordination, and muscle mass needs to waste calories focusing his routine around fancy (oh my gosh he said fancy!!!) isolation movements.
Note for the drones without a sense of humour that read this thread.. I don't ACTUALLY think curls etc are fancy. I was using sarcasm.
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01-19-2013, 03:05 PM #36No brain, no gain.
"The fitness and nutrition world is a breeding ground for obsessive-compulsive behavior. The irony is that many of the things people worry about have no impact on results either way, and therefore aren't worth an ounce of concern."--Alan Aragon
Where the mind goes, the body follows.
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Ironwill2008 Journal:
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01-19-2013, 03:09 PM #37
I used to believe the "oh dont worry, compounds will make em big" theory too
Lemme tell u how it works in the real world, u don't get much size onto ur upperbody with just compounds simply because there is less poundage moved and less overload onto the secondaries.
Squats and deadlifts are so heavy and easy to progress that the secondary helpers of each will recieve harder stimulation just from those alone compared isolation exercises.
For ur upper body, the heaviest strength lifts u can do is the bench press and rows. Bench pressing is great for legit tricep size [/b]only if u have weaker tris compared to ur chest (meaning u fail at the top of the bench). If ur the opposite and fail on the bottom of the bench, then u have stronger tris and weaker pecs and so ur arms will never be as stimulated benching compared to say pushdowns bcuz ur chests gives out b4 ur triceps do and reduces the amount of work the tris do. As for rows, it's abosulte chit for building biceps bcuz correct row form relies on the mid traps/rhomboids to the most of the pull instead of the biceps. This exercise is fine at developing brachioradialis (top muscle on forearms) strength and size only if your brachioradialises are particulary weaker than ur traps/rhomboids.
That said: large progression on compound lifts will indeed add size and strength to other supporting muscles but will not be very noticeable for upper body compounds simply bcuz progression is harder and slower. Therfore, u can achieve better strength and size gain by isolating the supportive muscles of the upper body (triceps, biceps, brachioradialis, other forearms, brachialis, abs, obliques, and specifically calves on ur lower body)
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01-19-2013, 03:12 PM #38
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01-19-2013, 03:14 PM #39
furthermore, if u really feel ur biceps working during rows and pullups/chinups, then
1.) ur biceps are weak as fuk cuz, go do some curls
2.) ur doing it wrong
Just how the dips are the vertical compound for tris, incorect chinups are the vertical plane, compound for biceps. (Close grip chins, imagine trying to just flex ur arms and just pull with ur lats when ur at a sticking point)
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01-19-2013, 03:17 PM #40
dont believe this *******/sheep theory of "oh u need to add x weight to fill out and ur arms will magically grow" same ridiculous **** uttered by "squats for arms" queers
squats will never increase test as much as the right diet will naturally, or AAS
Another thing: there's plenty of guys out there that have huge upper bodies (chest and arms) while having legs the size of the average man bcuz they don't even train them
^u mean to tell me their legs got bigger along with their upper bodies? Is that why their proportionally imbalanced? Fuk no, their legs didn't get big bcuz they didn't train them.
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01-19-2013, 03:22 PM #41
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01-19-2013, 03:29 PM #42
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01-19-2013, 06:06 PM #43
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01-19-2013, 06:10 PM #44
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01-19-2013, 06:46 PM #45
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Just do more bicep work.
I se no logic in waiting until you lift x amount of weight or weigh above 200lbs to start isolating muscles. Why not train them now instead of waiting until they are lagging and then start training them? Better to have a body with no lagging parts from day 1 IMOFollows Chestbrah's training routine crew
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01-19-2013, 06:54 PM #46
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01-19-2013, 06:56 PM #47
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01-19-2013, 06:57 PM #48
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I'm not really a fan on your line of thinking at all. The beginner's entire body lags, yes. And thus he would presumably want to work all of his muscles so that they grow. Why should he not do arm/calf/shoulder isolation, only to later find that these areas lag 90% of the time?
Bigger things to focus on? Doing both compounds and isolation is not that hard, so I don't understand your compounds > iso mentality, as if you have to pick one.
You're right there, good point, a routine that is 100% compounds will not build calves. I agree, so, next time I make mention of this topic I`ll be sure to say, although, the calves dont really get worked by these compound movements. However, I still don't think a noob without any experience, coordination, and muscle mass needs to waste calories focusing his routine around fancy (oh my gosh he said fancy!!!) isolation movements.
You're justifying not doing exercises that will lead to more muscle mass due to calorie expendature? Seriously? That is idiotic. I think you over estimate the amount of calories burned in exercise.
Note for the drones without a sense of humour that read this thread.. I don't ACTUALLY think curls etc are fancy. I was using sarcasm.'People are gonna remember me as a god forever... Like-like-like Troy, like Chiles heel, I'm a god forever I'll be remembered for thousands of years to come' - Jason Genova
Texas Method Mod: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=171537443&p=1444534723&viewfull=1#post1444534723
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01-19-2013, 07:06 PM #49
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01-19-2013, 07:10 PM #50
1. As you already know but seem to have forgotten, I had already admitted to the other guy that he was right about calf isolation being necessary 100% of the time. SO scratch that off the list. Shoulders and arms lag 90% of the time? Have you not been in a gym lately? Pretty sure arms are a safe bet for most guys in there.
2. I also said(if you would read the whole thread) that at THIS PHASE, I dont believe it would be optimal to be doing extra isolation work when total body/compound moves are already going to be shocking an untrained body. Later on, after you adapt, sure, throw all the isolation you can handle, but, if a noob is doing deadlifts squats bench press pull ups dips plus their variations, I think isolating those muscles will be unnecessary until a plateau has been hit and the individuals body adapts to the current routine.
3. I was hoping to use the calorie idea as a figure of speech/ way to get the point across. LIke I've said I think that adding extra moves for someone who will already be in a phase of their routine (when do properly) would tax their body beyond what they can handle at first. The thing is, most people don't know that because they replace the compounds with isolations in hopes of "instantly"looking big.
So, will a 6'0 140 lber gain anything from all the compounds plus their variations and perhaps a couple isolations? Yes absolutely. I believe they'd be at the maximum amount of gains as far as training goes. Will they exceed more during the first few noob months of training if they add in lots of extra curls, pushdowns, crunches, forearms work, reverse curls? I don't believe so. If they add in isolations once their body adapts to real training(not curls and benching), then yes, at that point it would be beneficial.
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01-19-2013, 07:11 PM #51
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01-19-2013, 07:11 PM #52
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01-19-2013, 07:12 PM #53
This is wrong. The straight bar is a much better alternative as it forces your grip to be supinated putting the most tension on the bicep.
Anyways OP I had the same issue you have. My training routine either consisted of an upper lower split that didn't include direct arm work or a full body routine that didn't include bicep exercises. Like many others after coming onto the misc I bought into the myth that direct bicep work wasn't necessary, as a result everything on my body grew at the same pace while my biceps stayed stagnant. To me it looked horribly unaesthetic and I decided to do some direct bicep work. Since adding direct bicep work to my routine my bi's are quickly starting to catch up and are hardly lagging. I find I am much more pleased aesthetically with my overall physique now.
I do Biceps with Chest alternating between 1 bicep movement for 3 sets then 1 chest movement for 3 sets. Typically for chest one week I'll go heavy weight to improve strength then one week I'll focus on high reps for hypertrophy.
Flat Barbell Bench - 2 Warmup Sets, 3 Working Sets
Barbell Curl - 3x15
Decline Bench - 3 Working Sets
Alternating Dumbell Curl - 3x15
Cable Flies - 3x15
Preacher Curl Machine - 3x15
Also as another poster stated above, if you are feeling your bicep's becoming very tired or very sore during back workouts it's because you haven't developed the proper mind-muscle connection in your back. When I'm training my back my bicep's hardly get a pump, focusing on pulling through my elbows and feeling my back properly contract. I feel I work my back to a greater extent training this way.Last edited by BFair24; 01-19-2013 at 07:22 PM.
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01-19-2013, 07:26 PM #54
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01-19-2013, 07:29 PM #55
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01-19-2013, 07:37 PM #56
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01-19-2013, 07:41 PM #57
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01-19-2013, 07:45 PM #58
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01-19-2013, 08:33 PM #59
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I didn't forget anything. I skimmed the thread, saw your post and analysed it and am now doing the same to this one.
I had already admitted to the other guy that he was right about calf isolation being necessary 100% of the time. SO scratch that off the list. Shoulders and arms lag 90% of the time? Have you not been in a gym lately? Pretty sure arms are a safe bet for most guys in there.
2. I also said(if you would read the whole thread) that at THIS PHASE, I dont believe it would be optimal to be doing extra isolation work when total body/compound moves are already going to be shocking an untrained body. Later on, after you adapt, sure, throw all the isolation you can handle, but, if a noob is doing deadlifts squats bench press pull ups dips plus their variations, I think isolating those muscles will be unnecessary until a plateau has been hit and the individuals body adapts to the current routine.
I don't really have much to say to that except that I strongly disagree and that the vast majority of novices who add a curl, an extension, and some shoulder raises will see more gains than those who do not.
3. I was hoping to use the calorie idea as a figure of speech/ way to get the point across.
LIke I've said I think that adding extra moves for someone who will already be in a phase of their routine (when do properly) would tax their body beyond what they can handle at first. The thing is, most people don't know that because they replace the compounds with isolations in hopes of "instantly"looking big.
So, will a 6'0 140 lber gain anything from all the compounds plus their variations and perhaps a couple isolations? Yes absolutely. I believe they'd be at the maximum amount of gains as far as training goes. Will they exceed more during the first few noob months of training if they add in lots of extra curls, pushdowns, crunches, forearms work, reverse curls? I don't believe so. If they add in isolations once their body adapts to real training(not curls and benching), then yes, at that point it would be beneficial.
I think you've shot yourself in the foot a little here. Ad hominem arguments probably hurt your reputation more than the person you're criticizing.
lol'People are gonna remember me as a god forever... Like-like-like Troy, like Chiles heel, I'm a god forever I'll be remembered for thousands of years to come' - Jason Genova
Texas Method Mod: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=171537443&p=1444534723&viewfull=1#post1444534723
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01-19-2013, 09:19 PM #60
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