HIIT on keto WHAT'S THE PROB?

[matt_t2004]

I keep hearing people say that keto doesn't allow for HIIT or high intensity of any kind. Well I have been doing keto for about 5 months, and just started the steak and eggs keto diet, and I always go high intensity. I perform 3 HIIT sessions a week and my weight workouts resemble CrossFit training. So I don't understand why people say that they can't do it.

[jaim91]

I keep hearing people say that keto doesn't allow for HIIT or high intensity of any kind. Well I have been doing keto for about 5 months, and just started the steak and eggs keto diet, and I always go high intensity. I perform 3 HIIT sessions a week and my weight workouts resemble CrossFit training. So I don't understand why people say that they can't do it.

Hiit, if done properly, takes you to past 85% of your max heart rate. At this intensity, you're burning carbs not fat.

[crazymutha]

I count an HIIT session the same as a lifting day, due to it's effects on the cns.

That said, your 3 HIIT workouts + your 3-5 lifting sessions can easily add up to something that a keto diet cannot optimally support.

Thus, you might be progressing, but suboptimally.

[daddarioc]

This is something I always worry about too, and wonder if TKD would be more for me. When I do cardio, I like the cardio nature of it (i.e. heartrate and breathing), but I inevitably have to pitch it up into higher intensities to 'get a good workout', which as others have said leans more towards carbs for fuel.

While I don't necessarily have endurance issues while doing this on keto, I think I must be mowing through muscle at those points due to no carbs being available :/.

[rusrious]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=747976

YOU WANT THE TRUTH?, YOU CANT HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ( phrase on my mind,lol)

This is pretty interesting, I think anyways.. gives some light to cardio.. How it pertains to keto?, I dont know, but heres some good info, and take it from there..

[dom996]

Hiit, if done properly, takes you to past 85% of your max heart rate. At this intensity, you're burning carbs not fat.

So if I go to over 85% and I have no carbs what happens?

[Lunarisx718]

So if I go to over 85% and I have no carbs what happens?

i'm guessing you'll burn LBM

[jaim91]

This is something I always worry about too, and wonder if TKD would be more for me. When I do cardio, I like the cardio nature of it (i.e. heartrate and breathing), but I inevitably have to pitch it up into higher intensities to 'get a good workout', which as others have said leans more towards carbs for fuel.

While I don't necessarily have endurance issues while doing this on keto, I think I must be mowing through muscle at those points due to no carbs being available :/.

If muscle loss is a concern, may I suggest something like Xtend (a flavoured BCAA powder) that you can sip on during the day that prevents muscle los.

So if I go to over 85% and I have no carbs what happens?

See below...you RISK burning lbm.

i'm guessing you'll burn LBM

[vanes_wf]

If muscle loss is a concern, may I suggest something like Xtend (a flavoured BCAA powder) that you can sip on during the day that prevents muscle los.



See below...you RISK burning lbm.

I think all this while I have been burning my LBM instead of Fat!!
I thought doin HI workout can speed things up and help me get into Keto faster..meanwhile..I get to burn more calorie.
One more question, I thought we are burning fat on a Keto Diet instead of carbs?? That is why I have energy to do weight in the form of circuit and 30min HI(75% HR and above?) by eating nuts only...!??
And...what is the advice if I am not allow to do HI training on Keto??(if my concern is burn MOST CAL & FAT in SHORTEST time)
thank you

[Nutir]

HI weight lifting should be fine, if you're really concerned you could get one of those HR monitor watches.

As for cardio, I do 5mn to get me started pre-weights, some stretching, weights, then 30mn LISS.

Right now, as I can not work my legs and jog, I just walk a little, and do some straight-leg rowing.

[deadfingers]

If muscle loss is a concern, may I suggest something like Xtend (a flavoured BCAA powder) that you can sip on during the day that prevents muscle loss.

Hmm so now I'm a bit worried. I'm doing CKD, and I usually only take NO Xplode before my workouts. I'm in my "cutting" phase so I'm doing a lot more cardio. I do Spinning, which usually gets my heart rate up pretty damn high, least I think so. I'd hate to lose muscle mass, even more so, losing muscle mass and not burning fat because of it. So how does Xtend come into play there? Would I take it during the day after the workout? Before? what? I may just get into TKD just because I'm worried my workouts might be a little too "high tempo" and might be burning off LBM.

[jaim91]

I think all this while I have been burning my LBM instead of Fat!!
I thought doin HI workout can speed things up and help me get into Keto faster..meanwhile..I get to burn more calorie.
One more question, I thought we are burning fat on a Keto Diet instead of carbs?? That is why I have energy to do weight in the form of circuit and 30min HI(75% HR and above?) by eating nuts only...!??
And...what is the advice if I am not allow to do HI training on Keto??(if my concern is burn MOST CAL & FAT in SHORTEST time)
thank you

Only do hiit the day or two after a carb up. HIIT needs carbs to be efficient because it works at a very high intensity. Fats work at 80-95% and lower. So your hiit isn't that effective on a low carb diet.

So how does Xtend come into play there? Would I take it during the day after the workout? Before? what? I may just get into TKD just because I'm worried my workouts might be a little too "high tempo" and might be burning off LBM.

Drink Xtend DURING your workouts so that your mucles never have to dip into their protein stores after you've finished burning the carbs at a high intensity. THe influx of dietary protein will prevent you from burning muscle protein.

[deadfingers]

Drink Xtend DURING your workouts so that your mucles never have to dip into their protein stores after you've finished burning the carbs at a high intensity. THe influx of dietary protein will prevent you from burning muscle protein.

Well I usually drink water flavored with NUUN and that keeps me well hydrated. So I should drink extend during a run or spinning? Also it says to drink Xtend half before you workout and half while, also another 2 scoops directly after working out. That seems like a lot. Like I said before I drink NO Xplode prior, so how would that work? Thanks.

[jaim91]

Well I usually drink water flavored with NUUN and that keeps me well hydrated. So I should drink extend during a run or spinning? Also it says to drink Xtend half before you workout and half while, also another 2 scoops directly after working out. That seems like a lot. Like I said before I drink NO Xplode prior, so how would that work? Thanks.

Stick to the Xtend during and after workout

[deadfingers]

Stick to the Xtend during and after workout

Well my problem is that is Xtend made for HIIT? I mean I like drinking nuun because it hydrates me, and it's lightly flavored water (well it's tablets that dissolve in water). I've tried Excellerade or whatever it's called and hated it, it had protein and it just tasted weird and was a bit thicker. Is Xtend that way? Basically I'm worried if I take Xtend during my HIIT workouts I'd get dehydrated or get disgusted with the taste. Thanks for your input Jaim!

[jaim91]

Well my problem is that is Xtend made for HIIT? I mean I like drinking nuun because it hydrates me, and it's lightly flavored water (well it's tablets that dissolve in water). I've tried Excellerade or whatever it's called and hated it, it had protein and it just tasted weird and was a bit thicker. Is Xtend that way? Basically I'm worried if I take Xtend during my HIIT workouts I'd get dehydrated or get disgusted with the taste. Thanks for your input Jaim!

It will definitely NOT dehydrate you. Excellerade is PURE glucose. It's meant to restore the electrlytes in your body like sodium (!!) and potassium. It's the sodium that gives you the dry mouth feeling.

Xtend contains nothing but BCAAs and glutamine, and comes in 5 refreshing flavorus: watermelon, lemonade, grape, apple and orange (I sounded like an advertisement there, lol...sorry!)

[treerollins]

BCAA supplementation is a good idea before both aerobic and anaerobic exercise.

Anytime fat oxidation increases in muscle, whole body bcaa oxidation increases as well [due to increases in branched-chain α-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH)]. Aerobic exercise greatly increases fatty acid oxidation during exercise, while anaerobic exercise increases fatty acid oxidation during post-workout recovery and while at rest. In either scenario, bcaa prove valuable.

BCAA are metabolized in skeletal muscle. The ammonia produced from bcaa metabolization is converted to glutamine or alanine. BCAA supplementation maintains plasma glutamine concentrations. Alanine is converted to glucose in the liver.

BCAA are an alternative energy source (to fat and carbohydrate); this role of BCAA is most prevalent under extended low carbohydrate dieting (reduced muscle glycogen content).

Gastric emptying is delayed during intense exercise. It is best to consume BCAA before and after intense exercise.

Have a 70 cc scoop (app 28 grams) of whey isolate, along with 5-10 grams of glutamine an hour before exercise. 15 minutes prior to exercising consume 5-10 grams of BCAA and a b-complex vitamin.

The whey isolate provides peptide bound bcaa, and a complete spectrum of essential amino acids. Supplemental glutamine decreases the need for bcaa derived ammonia to sustain plasma glutamine levels, thus allowing for the production of more alanine, and subsequently, glucose.

Post-exercise combine whey/casein hydrolysate (or isolate if money is a concern) with free form leucine and/or bcaa, carbohydrates (15-25 grams, whatever form you prefer), and creatine (5-10 grams).

[BeejGrpA]

BCAA supplementation is a good idea before both aerobic and anaerobic exercise.

Anytime fat oxidation increases in muscle, whole body bcaa oxidation increases as well [due to increases in branched-chain α-keto acid dehydrogenase (BCKDH)]. Aerobic exercise greatly increases fatty acid oxidation during exercise, while anaerobic exercise increases fatty acid oxidation during post-workout recovery and while at rest. In either scenario, bcaa prove valuable.

BCAA are metabolized in skeletal muscle. The ammonia produced from bcaa metabolization is converted to glutamine or alanine. BCAA supplementation maintains plasma glutamine concentrations. Alanine is converted to glucose in the liver.

BCAA are an alternative energy source (to fat and carbohydrate); this role of BCAA is most prevalent under extended low carbohydrate dieting (reduced muscle glycogen content).

Gastric emptying is delayed during intense exercise. It is best to consume BCAA before and after intense exercise.

Have a 70 cc scoop (app 28 grams) of whey isolate, along with 5-10 grams of glutamine an hour before exercise. 15 minutes prior to exercising consume 5-10 grams of BCAA and a b-complex vitamin.

The whey isolate provides peptide bound bcaa, and a complete spectrum of essential amino acids. Supplemental glutamine decreases the need for bcaa derived ammonia to sustain plasma glutamine levels, thus allowing for the production of more alanine, and subsequently, glucose.

Post-exercise combine whey/casein hydrolysate (or isolate if money is a concern) with free form leucine and/or bcaa, carbohydrates (15-25 grams, whatever form you prefer), and creatine (5-10 grams).

wen mixing with whey isolate would u recommend in preference pre werkout dextrose and/or maltodextrin, or BCAA's? (in of course the application of course of sustained hi intensity exercise or weight training)

[deadfingers]

It will definitely NOT dehydrate you. Excellerade is PURE glucose. It's meant to restore the electrlytes in your body like sodium (!!) and potassium. It's the sodium that gives you the dry mouth feeling.

Xtend contains nothing but BCAAs and glutamine, and comes in 5 refreshing flavorus: watermelon, lemonade, grape, apple and orange (I sounded like an advertisement there, lol...sorry!)

Haha, well as long as it's not thick or will give me that dry mouth feeling I'll try it out. I suppose I'll use nuun for daily hydration requirements.

[treerollins]

If fat loss is the primary goal, then use bcaa. Whey isolate is rich in both bcaa (app 25%) and glutamine. The amino acids in whey are peptide bound (obviously), and thus take time (although not very long) to be hydrolyzed into short chain fragments and single amino acids. I usually recommend a whey isolate shake in water an hour before intense ezercise. This provides a sustained delivery (as compared to a bolus of free form amino acids) of a "complete spectrum" of essential amino acids.

About twenty minutes before intense exercise you can supplement with additional bcaa and glutamine. This creates a higher peaking and more efficient supply of serum bcaa than the whey isolate shake. Depending on the intensity of exercise and individual circumstances/metabolism you may not require and/or benefit from this extra bcaa/glutamine cocktail as compared to simply using the whey isolate shake. If you are unconcerned with cost and seek to maximize the peri-workout nutrition period, then by all means combine both of the techniques (whey isolate and bcaa/glutamine).

For days when you seek to induce the maximal hypertrophic/anti-catabolic response from intense exercise combine carbohydrates with the above techniques. I would have a banana or a small serving of oatmeal with the whey isolate an hour before working out. Once again, this is due largely in part to the sustained release of complex carbohydrates (as compared to simple/designer sugars and starches). These pre-workout carbohydrates will increase serum insulin. This facilitates amino acid uptake and increases the expression of the rate limiting enzyme glycogen synthase (priming the re-synthesis of muscle glycogen post-workout).

Anytime you consume carbohydrates you decrease the possibility that bcaa will be used as energy substrate. This does not mean you cannot still utilize bcaa/glutamine about twenty minutes pre-exercise (if maximal effects are what you're after).

During your actual workout you can sip on a 6-8% glucose solution (gatorade or whatever you dream up). This will not cause gastrointestinal distress, and it is not limited by the delayed gastric emptying that plagues intra-workout bcaa/glutamine supplementation (which is why I do not suggest intra-workout protein/amino acid based cocktails).

To maximize post-workout nutrition you must increase serum insulin and leucine (as well as other EAA) concentrations as quickly as possible. This is best accomplished by using short chain peptide hydrolysates and free form amino acids, along with simple/designer sugars/starches. This is a great time to use creatine monohydrate as well (to hell with any other form of creatine).
The rationale behind this strategy has to do with the digestive properties of peptides and amino acids (short chain di and tri-peptides utilize different transporters than free form amino acids), and muscle glycogen resynthesis. Glut 4 is expressed post-workout (through mechanical stimulation, and also insulin), and glycogen synthase is highly active as well. This is the best time to maximize muscle glycogen resynthesis.

Hopefully nobody assumes this means I am pro-carbohydrate. I would rather use pre-workout whey, bcaa, and glutamine without carbohydrates to minimize protein breakdown without inhibiting intra-workout fat oxidation. If some of the ingested bcaa converts to alanine and then glucose, that's perfectly fine, I'll put it to good use during the workout. No matter what, I always use carbohydrates post-workout. If you seek to maximize the effects of catecholamine based supplements and intra-workout fat ozidation ditch the pre-workout carbohydrates. If your goal is to induce a maximal "growth response", by all means consume them.

[deadfingers]

Great info man, but I'll be honest I don't understand most of it. Haha, learning I suppose.

[vanes_wf]

[QUOTE=jaim91;163293991]Only do hiit the day or two after a carb up. HIIT needs carbs to be efficient because it works at a very high intensity. Fats work at 80-95% and lower. So your hiit isn't that effective on a low carb diet.


I thought 80~90% is considered as HI training already??
Does anyone do 95% and above of cardio?..besides runners.

[areya2005]

everyone keeps saying going past 85% is when your burining carbs. So anything under that and your still burning fat? I thought the fat burning zone was about 65%

[vanes_wf]

everyone keeps saying going past 85% is when your burining carbs. So anything under that and your still burning fat? I thought the fat burning zone was about 65%

Yea..u're right, 65% is fat burning zone.
But 75% burn the most fat..
So aim for 75% to burn more fat & calories.
I personally find that the higher HR % i go,the BETTER/Lighter I feel...
The only problem is you might not be able to sustain that long only...

[areya2005]

no offense to what you said, but can anyone with more rep points confirm this. I personally would rather do a higher intensity. at 65%, I feel like im not doing a damn thing. If I can keep my HR at 150 and not be counterproductive, I would love that.

[treerollins]

If you prefer more intense cardio stick to it.

I copied this from a recent thread I posted (low carbohydrate diets and supplement synergy), as it pertains to high intensity cardio:

[A 1994 study published in the journal Metabolism showed HIIT significantly increased post-exercise metabolism as compared to zone aerobic training. HIIT subjects showed resting increases in hydroxyacyl=coenzyme A dehydrogenase (HADH), an enzymatic marker of fat burning. HIIT group also experienced a nine-fold greater loss of subcutaneous fat as compared to the zone aerobic group. The zone aerobic group burned 48% more calories as a direct result of exercise as compared to the HIIT group; researchers concluded post-exercise metabolism increased in HIIT group largely in part due to GH.

Acute increases in GH are directly linked to the intensity of exercise. 30 seconds of all out sprinting to failure elicits a near maximum GH response. GH remains elevated at least 60 minutes post-exercise (GH 10X greater than baseline @ 60 min).]

To fend off exercise induced drops in plasma glutamine concentrations, and to limit/restrict exercise induced muscle oxidation (BCAA), supplement with BCAA and glutamine before, not during exericse. This can be helpful during moerate intensity cardio as well. Increases in intra-workout fat oxidation promote the activity of BCKDH (increases use of BCAA as fuel), and lengthy cardio sessions (marathons or whatever you can dream up) may further benefit from BCAA's effect on central fatigue (decreases entry of tryptophan in brain, decreasing fatigue).

[Paumen]

No offense to the Sciavation bunny but the BCAA is not going to help you.

Listen, in simple terms. At low intensity the body burns fat and a little bit of carbs.

When on a keto diet because you are bringing in the good fats and Little to no carbs your body goes into ketoisis where it uses ketones for fuel.

So when you elevate your heartrate about 140ish (depending on age,sex etc) your body will demand carbs as a fuel source, So when you do this HIT and your HR is high your body needs a quicker form of energry, and your body will get its energry any way it can.

Your body and metabolize your own muscles and turn them in Carbs which then be broken down into ATP.

So when you have no carbs there you are just wasting your hard earned work and literally eating yourself, been there done that.

I've been fast walking and lots of weight lifting this entire Keto diet, no jogging, running etc and I must say this is by far the most cut I have ever gotten to.

Gl bro, don't do that HIT stuff unless you carb cycling or something at the least.

[deadfingers]

If you prefer more intense cardio stick to it.

I copied this from a recent thread I posted (low carbohydrate diets and supplement synergy), as it pertains to high intensity cardio:

[A 1994 study published in the journal Metabolism showed HIIT significantly increased post-exercise metabolism as compared to zone aerobic training. HIIT subjects showed resting increases in hydroxyacyl=coenzyme A dehydrogenase (HADH), an enzymatic marker of fat burning. HIIT group also experienced a nine-fold greater loss of subcutaneous fat as compared to the zone aerobic group. The zone aerobic group burned 48% more calories as a direct result of exercise as compared to the HIIT group; researchers concluded post-exercise metabolism increased in HIIT group largely in part due to GH.

Acute increases in GH are directly linked to the intensity of exercise. 30 seconds of all out sprinting to failure elicits a near maximum GH response. GH remains elevated at least 60 minutes post-exercise (GH 10X greater than baseline @ 60 min).]

To fend off exercise induced drops in plasma glutamine concentrations, and to limit/restrict exercise induced muscle oxidation (BCAA), supplement with BCAA and glutamine before, not during exericse. This can be helpful during moerate intensity cardio as well. Increases in intra-workout fat oxidation promote the activity of BCKDH (increases use of BCAA as fuel), and lengthy cardio sessions (marathons or whatever you can dream up) may further benefit from BCAA's effect on central fatigue (decreases entry of tryptophan in brain, decreasing fatigue).

So what your saying is that it's best to take BCAAs before doing HIIT rather than during?

[Paumen]

So what your saying is that it's best to take BCAAs before doing HIIT rather than during?

This study is not of a "Keto diet".

When they say low here its more around 100 to 200 betcha.

Don't base your diet on studys. Real world results from other people doing the SAME thing is much better for you. GL

[vanes_wf]

No offense to the Sciavation bunny but the BCAA is not going to help you.

Listen, in simple terms. At low intensity the body burns fat and a little bit of carbs.

When on a keto diet because you are bringing in the good fats and Little to no carbs your body goes into ketoisis where it uses ketones for fuel.

So when you elevate your heartrate about 140ish (depending on age,sex etc) your body will demand carbs as a fuel source, So when you do this HIT and your HR is high your body needs a quicker form of energry, and your body will get its energry any way it can.

Your body and metabolize your own muscles and turn them in Carbs which then be broken down into ATP.

So when you have no carbs there you are just wasting your hard earned work and literally eating yourself, been there done that.

I've been fast walking and lots of weight lifting this entire Keto diet, no jogging, running etc and I must say this is by far the most cut I have ever gotten to.

Gl bro, don't do that HIT stuff unless you carb cycling or something at the least.

Is 200watt considered HIT??
I cycle around 150~200watt range. I dunno the HR..it's not shown.
So can i continue cycling another20~40min at that range after my 40~50min superset /circuit weight training?