Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss

[saternal]

Hey guys, i've been IFing for 3 weeks now and i figured my Maintenance to be @ 2,600 calories. My goals is to cut slowly so would dropping 200 calories all from carbs help?

[sportyaccordy]

Hey guys, i've been IFing for 3 weeks now and i figured my Maintenance to be @ 2,600 calories. My goals is to cut slowly so would dropping 200 calories all from carbs help?

That's prob the best way to do it, yes

[Trillios]

Hey guys, i've been IFing for 3 weeks now and i figured my Maintenance to be @ 2,600 calories. My goals is to cut slowly so would dropping 200 calories all from carbs help?

In my experience a 200cal daily deficit is shit. Try 500 or more cal/day.

[hankst]

In my experience a 200cal daily deficit is shit. Try 500 or more cal/day.

This. Even if you ignore the time aspect (1 lbs @ 200 kcal deficite ... 3500 kcal / 200 kcal = 17.5 days to lose a pound of fat), it's just too easy to undo a 200 kcal deficite by accident.

Edit:

this is a terrible thing to do to your body, caffeine stimulates production of pepsinogen which will mix with digestive juices to create pepsin effectively lowering the stomachs pH to around 1.4-2 pH. fasting whilst drinking coffee for long periods of time will EFFECTIVELY destroy your stomach lining.

You do realize that the natural pH in your stomach is at about 1, right? Gastric acid = hydrochloric acid = HCl, and that's a lot stronger than coffee.

[sportyaccordy]

So what's the premise behind IF? Over the past week I'm noticing more size in my muscles despite having to drop weight on a few exercises. At the end of a fast are the muscles somewhat depleted of glycogen, making the muscles work harder during a fasted workout?

Also is it normal to feel more like I'm gonna pass out during big lifts on IF? Usually after deadlifts I'm a little woozy, but today was my first fasted DL workout and I damn near keeled over.

[Insanity_SC]

Are you eating enough?

possibly not. This was on my last cut, and I was losing too fast on 2200kcals. I will try eating more this time around.

[Badboy27]

What method of cardio do you guys resort to for IF , Long distance at a low intensity and is 4x a week okay to do ?

[Sith Emperor]

What method of cardio do you guys resort to for IF , Long distance at a low intensity and is 4x a week okay to do ?

I do about 30 minutes a day on the treadmill, 5-6 days a week. 3.0 speed and a 15 incline. It's low intensity but I burn a significant amount of calories.

[MkADcision]

Do most of you take your vitamins/fish oils in the morning or wait to take it with food??..

I read taking vitamins on an empty stomach results in more of it being excreted instead of being absorbed.

[Dexter3000]

Do most of you take your vitamins/fish oils in the morning or wait to take it with food??..

I read taking vitamins on an empty stomach results in more of it being excreted instead of being absorbed.

I take them in the morning and in the evening (together with brushing my teeth). It's most convenient and this way I don't forget them. However, in the mornings I don't eat until 1-2 pm so they are taken 'fasted'. Don't really see a problem with that as long as you take in a lot of water together with the tabs.

(i'm not going to take that stuff with my to school/work etc.)

[hankst]

I take them in the morning and in the evening (together with brushing my teeth). It's most convenient and this way I don't forget them. However, in the mornings I don't eat until 1-2 pm so they are taken 'fasted'. Don't really see a problem with that as long as you take in a lot of water together with the tabs.

(i'm not going to take that stuff with my to school/work etc.)

Ever heard of fat soluble vitamins?
Wouldn't be a bad idea to take your fish oil caps with your fasted vitamin pill..

[Dexter3000]

Ever heard of fat soluble vitamins?
Wouldn't be a bad idea to take your fish oil caps with your fasted vitamin pill..

I don't take fish oil caps, only multi's. Sorry for not being clear about that.

[hankst]

I don't take fish oil caps, only multi's. Sorry for not being clear about that.

Then you should always take your multi with a meal.

[ExScientia]

In an article of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) called "Intermittent fasting does not affect whole body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism":

-"The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."


So intermittent fasting DOES INDEED SLOW DOWN THE METABOLISM. This is just compensated by the fact you generally eat less calories when you restrict eating to fewer hours of the day.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

[foodpr0n]

New Article

Cheat Day Strategies For A Hedonist

[MarkVI]

In an article of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) called "Intermittent fasting does not affect whole body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism":

-"The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."


So intermittent fasting DOES INDEED SLOW DOWN THE METABOLISM. This is just compensated by the fact you generally eat less calories when you restrict eating to fewer hours of the day.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

I've read the article man that's not something they can conclude. Your conclusion has no real evidence.

[hankst]

I've read the article man that's not something they can conclude. Your conclusion has no real evidence.

RESULTS: No differences in body weight were observed between the IF and SD groups. Peripheral glucose uptake and hepatic insulin sensitivity during the clamp did not significantly differ between the IF and SD groups. Likewise, lipolysis and proteolysis were not different between the IF and SD groups. IF decreased resting energy expenditure. IF had no effect on the phosphorylation of AKT but significantly increased the phosphorylation of glycogen synthase kinase. Phosphorylation of mTOR was significantly lower after IF than after the SD.

I'm not too happy to read this. Maybe Martin can go through this one for us?
+ I'll try to get the whole thing, not only the abstract. Shouldn't be too hard, gotta love my university!

Edit:
full text is free anyway, lol.
http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/5/1244.long

[isoriku]

The importance of the significant decrease in REE after IF (median decrease in REE: 59 kcal/d)

I dont find that too significant considering how much I can still eat in 3-4 meals. 59kcal/d is nothing when everyone is tracking their daily intake anyways.

And here comes the fun part

However IF affects muscle signaling pathways that may be beneficial in storing glycogen (GSK) or modulating nutrient signaling (mTOR).

So it seems nutrients I eat may be stored to muscles in higher degree than otherwise(SD).

[ErickStevens]

New Article

Cheat Day Strategies For A Hedonist

Before I even read this article I was planning on following Martin's "Damage Control" protocol that he taught me back when I used him for consulting. This works not only for Thanksgiving but any day where you plan on eating freely for a meal.

11AM: Train

1230PM: PWO Meal #1 - Big Bowl of Sludge w/ 2 Scoops ON Casein, 2 Scoops AllMax IsoFlex, 10oz FF Greek Yogurt, and 200g FF Cottage Cheese. (~150g protein, 35g cho, 4g fat)

~3:30PM: PWO Meal #2 - Thanksgiving!

Normally for "Damage Control" days like times I go out for sushi, I'll just have two or three PSMF-type meals to break the fast. Usually about a thousand calories from just protein and then eat whatever I want at night. But in this case Thanksgiving dinner is so early in the day I think just getting some protein in PWO is sufficient.

[ErickStevens]

In an article of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) called "Intermittent fasting does not affect whole body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism":

-"The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."


So intermittent fasting DOES INDEED SLOW DOWN THE METABOLISM. This is just compensated by the fact you generally eat less calories when you restrict eating to fewer hours of the day.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

I see there's not one mention of macronutrient composition in this article. I wouldn't be surprised if IFing does "slow the metabolism" if one doesn't follow a diet consisting of sufficient protein (TEF!) intake. A shiit diet is still a shiit diet, regardless of meal frequency. This study proves nothing.

[PBateman2]

In an article of the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2009) called "Intermittent fasting does not affect whole body glucose, lipid, or protein metabolism":

-"The decrease in resting energy expenditure after IF indicates the possibility of an increase in weight during IF when caloric intake is not adjusted."


So intermittent fasting DOES INDEED SLOW DOWN THE METABOLISM. This is just compensated by the fact you generally eat less calories when you restrict eating to fewer hours of the day.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19776143

LOL. Here we go....

Please define SD (i.e. Standard Diet) for this TWO WEEK STUDY in EIGHT self reported healthy volunteers?

What was the exercise regimen during this two week period, if any? Resistance training involved?

Curious.

[Sith Emperor]

LOL. Here we go....

Please define SD (i.e. Standard Diet) for this TWO WEEK STUDY in EIGHT self reported healthy volunteers?

What was the exercise regimen during this two week period, if any? Resistance training involved?

Curious.

Owned

[ExScientia]

LOL. Here we go....

Please define SD (i.e. Standard Diet) for this TWO WEEK STUDY in EIGHT self reported healthy volunteers?

What was the exercise regimen during this two week period, if any? Resistance training involved?

Curious.

Admittedly n=8 is not a great sample size; however, the study design was a crossover so each subject served as his own control (would follow IF, break for several weeks, then eat a standard diet, or vice versa). So if you had actually read the study, it is not just a two week study, but AT LEAST an 8 wk study (2 wks IF, 2 wks SD, >4wks in between diets).

As far as exercise goes, it states "no excessive sport activities, ie, <3 times/wk." Again, each subject is serving as his own control and presumably exercise was constant throughout the whole study. I don't really understand what you are getting at about the resistance training. The study is meant to compare metabolic profiles between a standard diet and IF and the study hypothesis has nothing to do with exercise.

[ExScientia]

I've read the article man that's not something they can conclude. Your conclusion has no real evidence.

Please go on... I am more than willing to have an academic discussion about this article and any problems with conclusions or study methods, but such a discussion cannot take place if you don't give me specific arguments as to why my "conclusion has no real evidence."

[ExScientia]

I see there's not one mention of macronutrient composition in this article. I wouldn't be surprised if IFing does "slow the metabolism" if one doesn't follow a diet consisting of sufficient protein (TEF!) intake. A shiit diet is still a shiit diet, regardless of meal frequency. This study proves nothing.

Can you elaborate on why the study "proves nothing?" The article does mention macronutrients, most importantly that the macronutrient composition is the same between the two diets compared.
-"The caloric intake during both diet periods was equal to avoid energy restriction with secondary effects on metabolism. Diversion of calories between carbohydrates, fat, and protein were kept equal as well."

Additionally, are you putting "slow the metabolism" in quotes because you disagree with the phrase, or think it unscientific? The subjects in the study underwent indirect calorimetry which is an actual measurement of Resting Metabolic Rate, or in this study the synonymous Resting Energy Expenditure (the amount of calories the body burns in a state of rest). So yes, the Resting METABOLIC Rate was shown to be decreased in the IF group compared to the SD group, and so yes Intermittent Fasting DID "slow the metabolism."

[doctapeppa]

This study evaluated subjects that were fasting 20 hours, every other day. Also, they were ingesting 40% of their calories via liquid meals. I don't remember how much protein they had on a daily basis but I think it was quite low as well. Even with all this contrast to the way we practice IF, the only significant downside to the IF'ers in this study was the decreased resting energy expenditure which they calculate could mean a gain of a whopping 3 kilograms of body fat in an entire year! Whoopty doo.

Also, this:

"However IF affects muscle signaling pathways that may be beneficial in storing glycogen (GSK) or modulating nutrient signaling (mTOR)."

Both of which are potentially beneficial for muscle synthesis in weight lifters.

Overall a favorable study for our concerns, if you ask me. Don't read this and say "Oh noes! IF doesn't work" That's not what this study says at all. The way IF was implemented in this study wasn't overtly favorable, but this study does not mean that intermittent fasting, in general is bad.

[DJohnson]

I didn't read the full text but is it possible that while resting the IF group weren't digesting food anymore while the other group still was? The thermic effect of food could easily count for 59kcal.

The energy expenditure would probably be the same, it's just that the IF group had their thermic effect while digesting all their food from the 4 hour feeding period while the control group had a lower thermic effect throughout the day that added up to the IF group's.

Also if diet isn't controlled it's just likely that the IF group ate a fair bit less (4 hour feeding period) so of course their metabolism would slow a tiny bit vs a much higher kcal diet.

[PBateman2]

Admittedly n=8 is not a great sample size; however, the study design was a crossover so each subject served as his own control (would follow IF, break for several weeks, then eat a standard diet, or vice versa). So if you had actually read the study, it is not just a two week study, but AT LEAST an 8 wk study (2 wks IF, 2 wks SD, >4wks in between diets).

As far as exercise goes, it states "no excessive sport activities, ie, <3 times/wk." Again, each subject is serving as his own control and presumably exercise was constant throughout the whole study. I don't really understand what you are getting at about the resistance training. The study is meant to compare metabolic profiles between a standard diet and IF and the study hypothesis has nothing to do with exercise.

COOL!! lol. Definitely noted. Will not spend a great deal of energy on this.

Eight subjects (non-controlled), cyclical diet (2weeks on/2 weeks off), limited physical activity, and slowing of the metabolism. Done deal.

As I stated previously, its a shame that "standard diet" wasnt defined - the intake of protein, healthy fats, and CHO among both groups. Also, most on this thread are involved with moderate to heavy exercise on a regular basis AND also IF. These factors play a role in metabolism (i.e. RMR), protein synthesis, metabolic profiles, etc..

All good

[ExScientia]

I am not totally opposed to IF. I am merely trying to build the fund of knowledge about the topic. I saw on the first thread that Martin was saying that metabolism was increased during the fast due to the stress response (cortisol, catecholamines, etc.) I am merely providing a study that may show otherwise.

I will concede that the study was small and the diets were not as controlled as some might like. I would also like to point out that the p value for REE decrease was <.05 (meaning that the chances that the outcome of REE was due to chance alone is less than 5%). So even with a small study group the decrease was still significant. Additionally, all this study shows is a downward trend in REE due to the short time period studied. We do not know that the REE bottomed out during the study, in fact over a 6 month period of IF the REE may have kept decreasing (or maybe not). So it is perhaps not valid to conclude that this decrease in REE "only" adds up to 3 kg of fat a year. It may or may not depending on the long term effect of IF on REE.

Also, the particular IF 20 hours off then 4 hours on every other day is in fact different than most athletes practice IF. This is a valid point and a problem with applicability in the study. So, yes the study certainly does not shoot down IF as a valid nutritional protocol, but it does bring up some interesting food for thought. I may have misunderstood the purpose of the "Advanced Nutrition" forum, but we are all working towards understanding nutrition to the best of our ability, and I am merely trying to contribute to a better community understanding of a newer concept in modern nutrition (IF).

[ArgentineMuscle]

hmm can people go keto diet on a intermittent fasting protocol ?