As long as you're doing your compounds and not jumping on some silly isolation machine as soon as you walk into the gym then you're probably gonna do fine. Not a fan of machines myself though.
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Thread: Machines vs. Free Weights
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12-11-2012, 08:12 PM #31
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12-11-2012, 09:31 PM #32
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Both categories have been integral parts of my routine since day one. Specifically, I'm a huge fan of the Hammer Strength line of equipment.
Bodybuilding is 60% training and 50% diet. Yes that adds up to 110%, because that's what you should be giving it. Change the inside, and the physique will follow.
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12-11-2012, 09:37 PM #33
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"rear delts" is a very specific muscle. Do you know why people work very specific muscles? Because those muscles are lagging. Does somebody with little to no lifting experience need to worry about lagging muscles? No. Everything is lagging, therefore they dont need to work on isolation movements to start out. But of course you knew all this right?
Jesus christ I just saw your 9000 posts since last year. I hate to ad hominem but do you do anything besides misc *******?My Training Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=149612633
Crew Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157295413&p=1141543273#post1141543273
Da Utubez: http://www.youtube.com/user/Inspeckdadeck
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12-12-2012, 02:01 AM #34
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For a beginner, everything is basically lagging.
But why would you only do compounds, only to almost certainly have lagging side and rear delts, calves, biceps and triceps in the future? Surely you would implement them immediately?
Jesus christ I just saw your 9000 posts since last year. I hate to ad hominem but do you do anything besides misc *******?
Well I sometimes post in the exercise section.
Also, if you want to get me on R/C too but don't want to stress with a new comment, it's 'you're'. 'Your an idiot' would imply that I have in my possession, something called 'an idiot'. My an idiot is confused.'People are gonna remember me as a god forever... Like-like-like Troy, like Chiles heel, I'm a god forever I'll be remembered for thousands of years to come' - Jason Genova
Texas Method Mod: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=171537443&p=1444534723&viewfull=1#post1444534723
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12-12-2012, 02:06 AM #35
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12-12-2012, 03:42 AM #36
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12-12-2012, 05:50 AM #37
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12-12-2012, 06:22 AM #38
Best Combination as follows: Use body weight, free weights, then machines come in lesser times and exercises.
I have a well equipped Home Gym, but I don't use much machines. My exercises consist on usage of benches, barbells, Olympic bar, dumbbells, weights, power tools..etc
I prefer most of the times to use the Olympic bar for Squats than the Smith Machine.
Basically, I use machines for the benefit of the pulley in back exercises, some biceps & triceps specific targeting exercises, and mostly for the leg exercises where I see that machines are a must, only squats are the best to be used without machines for legs exercises, also for back exercises but you still can use many free weights and body weights with a hanging bar too for it.
Who says that machines are useless, doesn't know what saying for sure but also who base exercises on it and only it or mostly it, also doesn't know what doing.
Most importantly, it all depends on the body builder body and bodybuilding professional coaches knows that well.
Some bodies adapt to machines better than free weights but I believe all bodies can adapt to body weight exercises if the BB is willing & determined to do that and also believe that can improve from that.
I know many BB's who developed their chest by using machines after many tries with free weights but no hope and also know many others who developed their chest using free weights, dumbbells..etc But still this or that, combination is the best.
You must try to know what works best with your body, do not make presumptions before trying..
There's nothing that's 100% or even 80-90% right for everyone.
Do what you feel works best for you and ignore some people stuck thoughts and minds about this and only these are the best exercises & equipment.
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12-12-2012, 06:34 AM #39
You can't assume those groups will be lagging through compounds. A good beginner routine should cover just about everything through compounds. Once this is done for a while, it should be made clear what accessory work will be needed. Everyone has different genetics and body structures. And FWIW biceps are probably the toughest thing on that list to hit well through compounds, so if anything, curls are the only isolation I'd have a beginner even consider from the very start.
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12-12-2012, 06:59 AM #40
People training for size should perform basic massbuilding exercise from the start, which include exercises like the ones he mentioned. Terms like "accessory" mean fck all to BB types, because these exercises aren't an accessory to a lift, because that isn't the goal. The goal is size, not assisting the weak link in a lift. Do the exercises that have the optimal resistance curve for developing muscle. Some of those are isos. Pigeonholing things into compound vs. iso is for fcking amateur lifters who don't know what they're doing or have some powelifter's mentality stuck up their ass.
Who was this love of yours?
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12-12-2012, 08:01 AM #41
Every exercises can be a "mass builder". More often I hear this term applied to deadlifts and squats though.
Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick
Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick
Believing that focusing on compounds is wise has nothing to do with "powerlifting mentality".
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12-12-2012, 08:55 AM #42
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12-12-2012, 08:57 AM #43
Don't a lot of machines (smith being most common) nerf the eccentric contraction for a given lift? Seems like that would be detrimental for hypertrophy
That being said I can see an advantage for machines that hasn't been brushed on yet is that they aren't very metabolically taxing. So say for example adding leg extensions toward the end of a leg session would allow the trainee to bump volume without the coordination/energy burden of a split squat
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12-12-2012, 09:05 AM #44
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12-12-2012, 09:36 AM #45
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12-12-2012, 10:29 AM #46
free weights
I personally like free weights more because your not only using the muscles to do the exercise but your also recruiting those muscles to stabilize the weight. And if your that worried about form just use less weight to start. Once you perfect your form then go from there. I do still use machines to work certain body parts I want to isolate though
like my biceps for example.
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12-12-2012, 10:34 AM #47
It depends what you mean by machines. Cable machines can be used for some decent exercises that free weights can't accommodate. However, if you're talking about using a chest press machine rather than a bench and some dumbbells I'd have to ask...why? Non-cable machines work in a way that they use a very specific muscle to achieve the lift. There is no stabilising or other movement - just straight back and forth. For a beginner I can see this being a poor way to start when compared to using free weights. I would imagine that you could build up to doing a full stack of weight on a chest press machine over time and move on to using a bench one day to find out you're actually as weak as a kitten since you've never had to employ balance.
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12-12-2012, 10:38 AM #48
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I very much agree with this. Im not against machines in general, or ISO movements. I just dont think its "optimal" for a begginer.
I dont plan on keeping this arguement going past this thread. I didnt neg you because you negged me, it was the little comment you left that rustled my jimmies. Its over now.
I dont pretend to know bodybuilding past basic principles, but I was under the asumption that isolation movements were not done until a basis of muscle mass was already built.My Training Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=149612633
Crew Log: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=157295413&p=1141543273#post1141543273
Da Utubez: http://www.youtube.com/user/Inspeckdadeck
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12-12-2012, 10:44 AM #49
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12-12-2012, 10:55 AM #50
oh, this thread again.
as i've posted in just about any other thread resembling this, any experienced bodybuilder (pro OR hobbyist) will eventually cycle through all or most stances/grips/angles/variations/machines/exercises to develop their long term goal physique. even if you're not using a specific variation NOW, you will likely do it in the future.
i use free weights for everything i can. i practically NEVER touch a smith machine. i use machines very seldomly for extensions after leg days or sometimes the crunch machine...in the future, this may all change.
edit: but i WILL say that i believe beginners should make the bread and butter based off compounds, and should still include some direct work (curls, lateral raises, calf raises, etc) to any OBVIOUS lagging parts after they've spent a couple months or so focusing on just the basics.Powerlifter convert. Follow on instagram Sharpie_bendingbarbells
Most recent comp lifts: 405/305/475
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12-12-2012, 11:07 AM #51
If someone asks me my opinion on what exercises a size focused person should build a routine around, this is my response:
Squat
RDL
Bench
Row
OHP
Pull up
Shrugs
side raises
Curls
Dips/skulls/extension
Or some variation of those.
If someone wants to argue that you don't need ___ for a few months, whatever. I reco people do those from the start. The smaller stuff will not hinder recovery since it doesn't tax the CNS much, if at all, and you may as well begin getting acquainted with the movements you will be doing soon. As I've stated, isos can be massbuilders - they are not simply to shore up weak points. I believe in advising people to do the max amount to get the max results.
Ultimately these conversations are mostly just internet fodder. I think too much emphasis is placed on how people start out. What's far more important is sticking to it and continuing to progress. Being consistent. That's where most fail. After you've been lifting a long time, no one really gives a sh*t how long it took to gain x amount of muscle or lift x amount of weight. Unless you've got a tardtastic routine, you'll get there with time and effort.Who was this love of yours?
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12-12-2012, 11:12 AM #52
true. i believe most of us started with piss poor routines and frequency and exercise choice, but many of us (not myself yet) still ended up with awesome physiques and development...it's not like what isn't spot on from the get go can't get corrected later on. as long as the individual is smart enough to use resources at their disposal for research, they will learn how to fix their training at some point before they die. those who are too shy or full of themselves to seek out constructive criticism, will look the same or worse year after year, and that doesn't bother me.
Powerlifter convert. Follow on instagram Sharpie_bendingbarbells
Most recent comp lifts: 405/305/475
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12-12-2012, 11:27 AM #53
Thanks, for the clarification. The 110 degree angle specifically was new info to me. I normally just considered 1+3. Anyways, I'm not denying the usefulness of isolations, but more or less the usefulness during a certain time period of an individual's training. And also I do think more of those are likely to be useful earlier than others (like bicep curls, which I think are useful straight from the beginning). Things like calves, traps, triceps, and lateral/rear delts are highly susceptible to genetics and some can go a long time before needing additional volume beyond what compounds provide.
I think we agree on 99% of this and we are just arguing a small detail that's really not even meaningful in the long run lol.
Also:
Originally Posted by ThickAsABrick
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12-12-2012, 11:41 AM #54
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12-12-2012, 11:45 AM #55
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I'd say it depends on just how new the person is in the first place but I will admit I wish I had access to and knowledge about free weights when I started. My "first" workout was 5 minutes on the elliptical machine and it almost killed me, some of us needed to work up to just walking down the ****ing road. Fortunately I've come a long way since then.
Machines gave me my newbie gains but that's it. After a couple months I stopped making progress which looking back isn't a big surprise given what I know now. For me, real progress took real weights which meant barbells. I haven't looked back since. These days you couldn't get me to touch a machine. I've since discovered Olympic Weightlifting which is doing even more for me."When you fall into a pit, you either die or get out."
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12-12-2012, 12:27 PM #56
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I just think that it seems redundant to wait until lagging muscles become obvious to include iso for them. Maybe bench press, incline and overhead are enough to develop someone's triceps but I don't think this is the case for the majority of people.
This is just my opinion and I can't *prove* it. All I can say is that I fell for the 'compounds only' trap, and also that since bigger guys and pro bbers always do some sort of curl and tri extension, as well as side raises/upright rows, some sort of rear delt exercise, and often shrugs, I'm not sure why these movement patterns would be required for *optimal* growth for a more advanced trainer but not a novice one.
In case anyone is wondering, DYTrainer is mad because he thinks perfect form is always better when this is not factually the case.
Also my lats look bigger than yours in your avi... glass houses...throwing stones...Last edited by NZninja101; 12-12-2012 at 12:33 PM.
'People are gonna remember me as a god forever... Like-like-like Troy, like Chiles heel, I'm a god forever I'll be remembered for thousands of years to come' - Jason Genova
Texas Method Mod: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=171537443&p=1444534723&viewfull=1#post1444534723
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12-12-2012, 12:55 PM #57
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Keep dreaming boy.
vs
Maybe if you actually spent time in the gym lifting correctly you would have some actual back muscles. Looking at your whole 1 picture ( surprised not to see more since you are so advanced and so smart..) I believe the following phrase fits you good:
"Abs on a skinny kid are like boobs on a fat chick; they just don't count."My Workout Log:
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=146169983&pagenumber=
"It is while struggling against the heaviest weights a human body can move that the demand for courage is incessant."
-Mike Mentzer
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12-12-2012, 12:58 PM #58
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12-12-2012, 01:26 PM #59
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Yep, lats still look bigger in my avi. Your old avi was a lot better. You probably just need to learn how to pose. Regardless I've been lifting for under 2 years, avi is a little over 2 months old, I had glandular fever so I had to stop lifting for a little while, and my diet was pretty bad in my first year. I also didn't bother with iso and now I really wish I had. And if I'm skinny then what are you?
but it's a moot point because Size =/= Knowledge. So if I say something I'm wrong, but if a big guy says the same thing he's right?
If you have anything else to say then take it to PM. We are ballzing up this thread.'People are gonna remember me as a god forever... Like-like-like Troy, like Chiles heel, I'm a god forever I'll be remembered for thousands of years to come' - Jason Genova
Texas Method Mod: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=171537443&p=1444534723&viewfull=1#post1444534723
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12-12-2012, 03:27 PM #60
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