Clearly not a single F**K was given that day (get off the stage)

[Groggery]

There is no clear-cut point where you can tell for sure.

What's an "unnatural" look?

Think of it this way - and i'm going to give you an absolutely retarded example here - if someone like Ronnie or Simeon Panda were natural, just how god damn better do you think they could possibly be on gear? If your mind can't imagine it, chances are it can't happen.

[DomzyCuttin]

Lol someone is average height and shredded at 190ish, and you morons think that cant be natural? Why because he has good genetics and good condition? You are born with good genetics, you work hard for good condition... So your saying Jay cutler, Ruhl, Ronnie, Dillet couldnt be 190-220 natural? Considering they averaged about 260-270 on stage. You guys are just ****ing jealous that after 6 years of superdrol and dbol cycles your still getting your ass handed to you by naturals. Heres an idea, get in the ****ing gym every day, dont ever miss meals, dont get too fat, and when you think your done a set, do 2 more good reps and 2 more cheat reps. Keep this up for 4 years + and maybe you will look decent too.

I dont even give two ****s about natural bodybuilding, but just use your ****ing brains a bit.

[Groggery]

So your saying Jay cutler, Ruhl, Ronnie, Dillet couldnt be 190-220 natural?

Way to go, brilliant commentary. Certainly made a believer out of me...

[Brofessional]

Way to go, brilliant commentary. Certainly made a believer out of me...

this. lol. Can always count on Domzy to bring the lulz in discussions.






Just gotta train hard and be consistent with your meals. Let's pay no attention he was the same size/slightly bigger than Serge Nubret while being a few inches shorter. That's just dedication tho guise

[TTimmerman]

Just gotta train hard and be consistent with your meals. Let's pay no attention he was the same size/slightly bigger than Serge Nubret while being a few inches shorter. That's just dedication tho guise

stop losing sleep over it dude, i couldn't give two flying fcks if he was natty or not, he obviously puts in the time, effort and sacrifice

maybe if you'd do the same you'd have an avi picture

IFBB section, not natty debate section seriously

[Brofessional]

stop losing sleep over it dude, i couldn't give two flying fcks if he was natty or not, he obviously puts in the time, effort and sacrifice

maybe if you'd do the same you'd have an avi picture

IFBB section, not natty debate section seriously

Lunch break right now actually. If you don't care go read another thread, I didn't kick in your door and force you to click here. If you want to be a mod and guide people where to post certain things, apply to be a mod. Plus, these threads are fun. Do you really just want to keep posting "damn phils lookin like a tank" over and over in this section?

Btw, this section has had a sh it load of natural bb discussion threads that mods never got rid of.

[TTimmerman]

Lunch break right now actually. If you don't care go read another thread, I didn't kick in your door and force you to click here. If you want to be a mod and guide people where to post certain things, apply to be a mod. Plus, these threads are fun. Do you really just want to keep posting "damn phils lookin like a tank" over and over in this section?

Btw, this section has had a sh it load of natural bb discussion threads that mods never got rid of.

whatever makes you less frustrated mate

[Neo8o8]

Guy in the 2nd pic is actually mentally retarded. Remember palumbo interviewing him sarcastically, wasnt funny.

truuuue

[Big Slim DaDDy]

I don't care if he's natty or not. The fitness industry is full of liars do you really think he's some unique form of deceptive evil that seeks to delude the oblivious and crush the dreams and hopes of anyone seeking to attain his level of physical development? If he is lying, it's not like we've discovered a witch here. Some people choose to not be open about their performance enhancing drug use. It's an illegal activity and admitting to doing so could cost them sponsorships and money ect. If your feelings are so hurt because you think this man is lying to you, you need to toughen up a little. Pointing a finger at someone isn't going to make them admit something they feel isn't anyone's business but their own.

[patbanya]

Add in that fullness that Patty carries and it's just even more obvious.

[img]http://www.endlessminds.net/Photoshoot/Pat-Banya-5272010/i-CvKkwXm/1/L/_MG_9337-L.jpg[img]
[img]http://www.cutandjacked.com/sites/default/files/images/interviews_men/Pat_Banya/pat_b_scr6.jpg[img]
[img]http://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/409190_422697881117471_1092293783_n.jpg[img]
[img]http://sphotos-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-snc7/r270/581465_407648989289027_356997131_n.jpg[img]

Just gotta train hard and be consistent with your meals. Let's pay no attention he was the same size/slightly bigger than Serge Nubret while being a few inches shorter. That's just dedication tho guise

Those aren't my best photos, but you could have done worse. Besides, it's the thought that counts. As far as naturals go, there's some pretty stiff competition, so I'm flattered by all the attention. Also, I have to admit, I blushed a little when you called me "Patty". Thank you, for the continued support. Xoxoxo

[Brofessional]

I don't care if he's natty or not. The fitness industry is full of liars do you really think he's some unique form of deceptive evil that seeks to delude the oblivious and crush the dreams and hopes of anyone seeking to attain his level of physical development? If he is lying, it's not like we've discovered a witch here. Some people choose to not be open about their performance enhancing drug use. It's an illegal activity and admitting to doing so could cost them sponsorships and money ect. If your feelings are so hurt because you think this man is lying to you, you need to toughen up a little. Pointing a finger at someone isn't going to make them admit something they feel isn't anyone's business but their own.

I have no motive for calling Pat out besides the amusement of pointing out a fraud that finds it necessary to advertise his false status to everyone for some weird reason. He obviously wants and likes attention, because if he just advertised himself as "Pat Banya - bodybuilder" no one would give a phuck because he'd just blend into the crowd of drug users. But because he's 'natural', now he's something special for people to look at, because he's obviously bigger and leaner than any truly natural bodybuilder.

[Victorikw]

Just oozing natty

I actually believe Pats physique CAN be achieved naturally JUST NOT by lazy people. My physique is not close to Pats but I have a feeling if I post a pic here, no one would believe I'm natural.
Heres a pic of me back in 2010

[Brofessional]

Heres a pic of my back

wat

[Victorikw]

not really trying to weigh in on the is pat natural debate although i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, that's all i'll say on the matter.

But, damn it annoys me when people try and use frank zane in these debates as some sort of natural limit or something. Yeah, zane more than likely used drugs, but that doesn't mean someone else has to in order to look as big/good. Next i guess capped delts, traps and stuff will be brought up in this debate. Oh and the "quality" of the physique, that seems to be a popular one as well. Never mind that genetics, proportion and conditioning are what create this "quality", natural or not, it has to be drugs right?

Sorry for the rant guys, i'm just pretty over this anyone with a good physique isn't natural thing, seems to be popular in the misc, but gee, i thought this section was better than that.

This^^

I doubt anyone here would believe this guy is natural BUT he is. Here is a pic from when he was 15 or 16 in grade 9

Abdul.jpg

here he is about at about 23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUh23ZyEP6k

All I am trying to say is, you folks need to be a little open minded. Not everyone wants to go into drugs and steroids.

[Brofessional]

This^^

I doubt anyone here would believe this guy is natural BUT he is. Here is a pic from when he was 15 or 16 in grade 9

Attachment 5312613

here he is about at about 23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUh23ZyEP6k

All I am trying to say is, you folks need to be a little open minded. Not everyone wants to go into drugs and steroids.

That guy would get dwarfed by Banya and not only dwarfed, but out conditioned. Not really comparable imo.

[Victorikw]

That guy would get dwarfed by Banya and not only dwarfed, but out conditioned. Not really comparable imo.

he is not as small as you think. He is 5'11 and about 215lbs in that video...

[Meshuggah]

Natty here chiming in. I hate making claims about people whether or not they are natural, but I highly doubt Pat Banya is 100% natural. Mostly natural maybe, but it depends on your definition. For example, Pat competes in musclemania. In legit natural circles, musclemania is considered a drug infested joke of an organization. If Pat was TRULY natural, he'd compete (and win) at the IFPA Yorton Cup. The fact that he hasn't (and won't) leads me to believe he's on juice. I've seen a million natural physiques, and if Pat Banya truly is natural, then he's the best natural in the history of the planet.

[Groggery]

If Pat was TRULY natural, he'd compete (and win) at the IFPA Yorton Cup. The fact that he hasn't (and won't) leads me to believe he's on juice.

Should he rub his belly while jumping to qualify as a real natural?

[Meshuggah]

Should he rub his belly while jumping to qualify as a real natural?

No he should compete in an organization with legit polygraph testing, but he won't.

[Meshuggah]

By the way, in many natural organizations, the competitors are inter-changeable. Multiple competitors compete in multiple organizations such as Philip Ricardo Jr. competing in both the IFPA and the WNBF. However, if you'll notice, nobody from Musclemania ever competes in any of the legit organizations and the quality of the "natural" physiques in that particular organization absolutely blows away the others. Smells fishy doesn't it?

[TTimmerman]

so, back on topic shall we?

[Groggery]

No he should compete in an organization with legit polygraph testing, but he won't.

Your eyes are the best tool for judgment. Folks like you are why some of us here act like jackasses on this topic. We're not trying to convince the regulars, rather the less street-savvy ones.

[Meshuggah]

Your eyes are the best tool for judgment. Folks like you are why some of us here act like jackasses on this topic. We're not trying to convince the regulars, rather the less street-savvy ones.

I said in an earlier post, that to my eyes, he doesn't look natural, at all.

[Meshuggah]

I also want to add that while I myself am natty, I got absolutely no problem with steroids or anything anyone else does, but the amount of lying in this sport is outrageous, and frustrating.

[santana77]

lol @ fkin losers who claim natural to try and justify their insecurities and feel higher up than others.



fkin lol.

[Meshuggah]

lol @ fkin losers who claim natural to try and justify their insecurities and feel higher up than others.



fkin lol.

Hopefully you're not referring to me, because I don't feel higher up or "better" than anyone who uses. I just consider it a different level of competition. I idolize many IFBB pro's like everyone else here.

[santana77]

Hopefully you're not referring to me, because I don't feel higher up or "better" than anyone who uses. I just consider it a different level of competition. I idolize many IFBB pro's like everyone else here.

not refering to you

[patbanya]

By the way, in many natural organizations, the competitors are inter-changeable. Multiple competitors compete in multiple organizations such as Philip Ricardo Jr. competing in both the IFPA and the WNBF. However, if you'll notice, nobody from Musclemania ever competes in any of the legit organizations and the quality of the "natural" physiques in that particular organization absolutely blows away the others. Smells fishy doesn't it?

Regarding Philip, when was the last time he competed in the WNBF? I can't find any record of it (http://www.musclememory.com/show.php...rdo,+Philip+Jr). According to their policy, the WNBF doesn't allow professionals to compete elsewhere. In the last 6 years, Philip has competed at, and placed very well in the NPC, Musclemania, NGA, INBA/PNBA, and OCB/IFPA.

He's taken top honors in each of these federations, including Musclemania, which you described as a "drug infested joke of an organization". In 2004, he won the Natural Olympia, but later got disqualified for failing a drug test. From what I understand, the banned substance was ephedra. So, while it wasn't a hormone, it was still an unfair advantage based on the contest rules.

Like you said, natural "depends on your definition", and I think it only encompasses the use of over the counter nutritional supplements. The kind of products that you can get virtually anywhere, from CVS to Walmart. Most of the high priced labels at GNC are bogus to begin with, so they shouldn't even be mentioned. Since my outlook doesn't apply to everyone, should I be discouraged? After all these years, have I been fighting a losing battle? These are rhetorical questions, but I think you get the point.

If Pat was TRULY natural, he'd compete (and win) at the IFPA Yorton Cup.

And, just for the record, I don't think I could beat anyone in the IFPA, as you suggested. Pictures are irrelevant, and these guys are seasoned professionals. I believe that the best man wins on the day of the contest. The truth is, I'd just be happy to place in the top 5! Philip Ricardo has accomplished more than I ever have in bodybuilding (and other areas of life). There's other people I admire, but I don't want to bring them into this.

Obviously, the drug testing, anywhere, isn't completely full proof. But, that doesn't allow you to whimsically discern a person's status without a failed drug test. If opinion matters more than actual testing, then none of us holds any credibility because somewhere, someone will always be skeptical.

I also want to add that while I myself am natty, I got absolutely no problem with steroids or anything anyone else does, but the amount of lying in this sport is outrageous, and frustrating.

I completely agree with this statement, but is there a realistic solution? When you have endurance athletes, who look nothing like bodybuilders, beating the test, that makes it very hard to believe anyone. These days, a person's physique and lifestyle, has become completely irrelevant because cheaters come in all shapes and sizes. For what it's worth, I believe you're natural, but I could be wrong.

Natty here chiming in. I hate making claims about people whether or not they are natural, but I highly doubt Pat Banya is 100% natural. Mostly natural maybe, but it depends on your definition. For example, Pat competes in musclemania. In legit natural circles, musclemania is considered a drug infested joke of an organization. If Pat was TRULY natural, he'd compete (and win) at the IFPA Yorton Cup. The fact that he hasn't (and won't) leads me to believe he's on juice. I've seen a million natural physiques, and if Pat Banya truly is natural, then he's the best natural in the history of the planet.

Now you're spreading fallacies. I never said I won't compete in the IFPA. If you've actually read my journal, or checked my post history, I state exactly why I think it's a bad idea to jump from one organization to another. I'm not going to post the links here because I don't want to bore you, or anyone else, but I can PM them to you if requested.

I know a lot of very good natural Musclemania athletes, so your words are huge insult to them. Part of the reason why their athletes never compete anywhere else is because they're strictly prohibited from doing so. Much like the WNBF, they'll actually loose their pro status if that becomes an issue. A lot of people get their start there, and since they're treated well, there's never any reason to leave.

Titles like the World and the Universe, are present in just about every organization. It's hard to determine which one is "better" because they all have something unique to offer. Some people like the exposure, for different reasons, and they use it as a stepping stone. Generally, people have different goals, preferences, and even the format of the actual contests is different.

As for the last sentence, I detected a hint of sarcasm, but it definitely made me laugh. If that's how you really feel, then maybe you need to take a closer look at natural bodybuilding. I won't name any names, to avoid further controversy, but there's quite a few people who could put me to shame. That doesn't bother me though, because self improvement is the highest reward. Hopefully, we can both agree on that, if nothing else.

[chenko]

I actually believe Pats physique CAN be achieved naturally JUST NOT by lazy people. My physique is not close to Pats but I have a feeling if I post a pic here, no one would believe I'm natural.
Heres a pic of me back in 2010

great physique mate

pretty confident you look 100 times better then all the no avi whingers here and i know you look alot better then some of the guys at my gym who use

[Brofessional]

And, just for the record, I don't think I could beat anyone In the IFPA, as you suggested. Pictures are irrelevant, and these guys are seasoned professionals. I believe that the best man wins on the day of the contest. The truth is, I'd just be happy to place in the top 5! Philip Ricardo has accomplished more than I ever have in bodybuilding (and other areas of life). There's other people I admire, but I don't want to bring them into this.

You're so full of s hit it's painful. You and I both know you could compete on that stage. Your method of "humble dodging" is nauseating.