Compound lifts are NOT helping biceps in my case

[InspecktaDeck]

obvious troll is obvious

Stop making stuff up to prove a non valid point then.

So, I'm honestly wondering, what is your suggestion for the OP?

When will he be "big enough" and/or trained long enough to start building his biceps?

Again, honest question here.

Im just saying its dumb for a skinny kid to worry about how big his arms are. When you lift for awhile(no finite number) and you start to notice things then start hitting them. Im not saying wait till he's 300lbs to start curling, but build a litter mass first before you worry about iso movements.

Good for you.

He told me to take a college class, I replied that I am taking one. I also dont follow rip

[Runner4]

So, I didn't mean to start a controversy. Despite what one of you mentioned, I actually don't look at big guys online and think "I need bigger arms"; I just look in the mirror with my shirt on and think "I look exactly the same as I did 5 months ago". (Shirt off is a different story.)

I mean, strength is of course nice to have but I'm just going for a "well-rounded" look. My arms definitely look thinner than the average person's, which is something I would like to correct, so I guess my question more explicitly stated is: do I need to do biceps-specific work for this?

It seems many of you have indicated the answer is yes. I added some curls yesterday and I really feel them today so I think this is going to help. Thanks!

Also of note: One of you mentioned that triceps are more important than biceps with regards to arm size. I actually have improved quite a bit on this. I started parallel dips with 25 pounds of assistance and now I am at 25 pounds added.

[NZninja101]

Stop making stuff up to prove a non valid point then.

How is he wrong?

[CBRob]

Runner, I been working out for just a couple more months than you. I did a program that was heavy into isolations and high reps, one that is hypertrophy focused. I had the opposite results as you. I was the guy with 15 in arms that couldn't bench as much as the skinny kid with his 13 in arms. On arm day, after a good pump, I can get 16" out of my arms. I bet you still bench more than me, lol. PR is 180 x 6
Don't hesitate to try a different routine, switching up can keep things interesting.

[zildjian_4]

"Fancy isolation" work eh ? O_o

Bodybuilding.com , where the Barbell Curl is a fancy movement.

Just using a "fancy" word bro, not a big deal. Is that all you took from my entire post? If so, reread.

Noone, EVER said that they shouldn't be.

What you call fancy, I call basic.

They didn't need to say that they shouldn't be. But, the OP is obviously a beginner so I pointed it out. .

This x2.

I don't know of any bodybuilder who wouldn't consider a Barbell Curl, Lying Extension, Calf Raise, or Abdominal Crunch basic exercises.

These are fundamental, basic exercises for total body development.

I can link you to several people who have 600-700+ Squats and Deadlifts that have absolutely no calves. Are you going to persist and tell me that Squats will build up your calves?

Same goes for Biceps. I know several people in-person that are pure powerlifters; they can easily Row 300-400+ for reps, and have 600+ deadlifts. Their biceps are non-existent.

I'm sorry, but this just makes no sense to me, nor does it/would it make any sense to any serious bodybuilder. Tell any of the Mr.Olympias that you shouldn't start doing Barbell Curls from day1, and see what they say.

You know SEVERAL people in realife that can row 300-400 and have NON-EXISTENT...NON-EXISTENT BICEPS?! Yes CAPS lock for yelling, because you sound ridiculous.

Im in college right now. Isolation movements are used to bring up lagging body parts(bb'ing) or to strengthen weak muscles in the chain(IE your bench lock out sucks). Tell me why somebody that is 5 months into lifting with little muscle mass at all needs to worry about weakness/lagging muscles? .

THIS. I doubt a beginner has a lagging bodypart since his entire body part is lagging. Notice I also mentioned that a couple are ok in certain areas(gave reference to lat raises or tricep extensions). I`m not against isolations, I do them almost every workout I do, but for a beginner, theres bigger things to focus on. Save the calories/energy.

Most people don't use isolation movements are not used to bring up "lagging body parts". They use them to train them.

Can you show me how you will build up respectable calves with a compound?

You're right there, good point, a routine that is 100% compounds will not build calves. I agree, so, next time I make mention of this topic I`ll be sure to say, although, the calves dont really get worked by these compound movements. However, I still don't think a noob without any experience, coordination, and muscle mass needs to waste calories focusing his routine around fancy (oh my gosh he said fancy!!!) isolation movements.


Note for the drones without a sense of humour that read this thread.. I don't ACTUALLY think curls etc are fancy. I was using sarcasm.

[ironwill2008]

I mean, strength is of course nice to have but I'm just going for a "well-rounded" look.

I'll say it one more time; a strength program is probably not your best option, OP.

[TreFo]

I used to believe the "oh dont worry, compounds will make em big" theory too

Lemme tell u how it works in the real world, u don't get much size onto ur upperbody with just compounds simply because there is less poundage moved and less overload onto the secondaries.

Squats and deadlifts are so heavy and easy to progress that the secondary helpers of each will recieve harder stimulation just from those alone compared isolation exercises.


For ur upper body, the heaviest strength lifts u can do is the bench press and rows. Bench pressing is great for legit tricep size [/b]only if u have weaker tris compared to ur chest (meaning u fail at the top of the bench). If ur the opposite and fail on the bottom of the bench, then u have stronger tris and weaker pecs and so ur arms will never be as stimulated benching compared to say pushdowns bcuz ur chests gives out b4 ur triceps do and reduces the amount of work the tris do. As for rows, it's abosulte chit for building biceps bcuz correct row form relies on the mid traps/rhomboids to the most of the pull instead of the biceps. This exercise is fine at developing brachioradialis (top muscle on forearms) strength and size only if your brachioradialises are particulary weaker than ur traps/rhomboids.

That said: large progression on compound lifts will indeed add size and strength to other supporting muscles but will not be very noticeable for upper body compounds simply bcuz progression is harder and slower. Therfore, u can achieve better strength and size gain by isolating the supportive muscles of the upper body (triceps, biceps, brachioradialis, other forearms, brachialis, abs, obliques, and specifically calves on ur lower body)

[TreFo]

if u rlooking to add size to ur biceps, ur best bet is the EZ bar curl bcuz:

1.) it allows for the heaviest weight
2.) easier progression
3.) EZ bar makes it more comfortable

[TreFo]

furthermore, if u really feel ur biceps working during rows and pullups/chinups, then

1.) ur biceps are weak as fuk cuz, go do some curls
2.) ur doing it wrong

Just how the dips are the vertical compound for tris, incorect chinups are the vertical plane, compound for biceps. (Close grip chins, imagine trying to just flex ur arms and just pull with ur lats when ur at a sticking point)

[TreFo]

dont believe this *******/sheep theory of "oh u need to add x weight to fill out and ur arms will magically grow" same ridiculous **** uttered by "squats for arms" queers

squats will never increase test as much as the right diet will naturally, or AAS

Another thing: there's plenty of guys out there that have huge upper bodies (chest and arms) while having legs the size of the average man bcuz they don't even train them


^u mean to tell me their legs got bigger along with their upper bodies? Is that why their proportionally imbalanced? Fuk no, their legs didn't get big bcuz they didn't train them.

[-Lucifer]

Starting-strength recommends no bicep work. I kind of ignored that and added 3x8 standing curls for 3 days a week. I also added 3 sets of chin-ups, but I feel like those work my back more than my biceps.

SS is not a hypertrophy programme, which is why your size gains are slow.

Do a legs/push/pull split instead. Minimal exercises, for 4 to 5 sets of 8 to 10 reps.

Send me a PM later on if you want me to customize it for you. On phone right now.

[TreFo]

SS is not a hypertrophy programme, which is why your size gains are slow.

Do a legs/push/pull split instead. Minimal exercises, for 4 to 5 sets of 8 to 10 reps.

Send me a PM later on if you want me to customize it for you. On phone right now.

better yet keep the set/rep scheme but make it a fullbody routine 3x week to maximize protein synthesis

[MichaelCJ]

Could just do allpro's simple beginner program, say. That has curls. Plenty of novice programs do, actually.

[Juggertha]

well if you do starting STRENGTH, then what just do you expect to go up?????? strength, RIGHT!

it is not called "Starting to get giant biceps", now is it......

first: make up your mind what you want to do, and how you want to look, and then, pick and tailor the workouts that address that.

if you want bigger Biceps, you must CERTAINLY work them directly....

This!


OP, I too get very little in my arms from the bigger lifts.

Direct work is where it's at for me and my goals.

[4everalone]

Just do more bicep work.

I se no logic in waiting until you lift x amount of weight or weigh above 200lbs to start isolating muscles. Why not train them now instead of waiting until they are lagging and then start training them? Better to have a body with no lagging parts from day 1 IMO

[bravo96]

Stop making stuff up to prove a non valid point then.



Im just saying its dumb for a skinny kid to worry about how big his arms are. When you lift for awhile(no finite number) and you start to notice things then start hitting them. Im not saying wait till he's 300lbs to start curling, but build a litter mass first before you worry about iso movements.



He told me to take a college class, I replied that I am taking one. I also dont follow rip

why not train all muscle groups directly from the start, its not like a few sets of direct arms, rear delt and calve work takes alot of energy.

this whole wait till your got a good size base before using iso's is stupid.

[-Lucifer]

better yet keep the set/rep scheme but make it a fullbody routine 3x week to maximize protein synthesis

/facepalm

[NZninja101]

THIS. I doubt a beginner has a lagging bodypart since his entire body part is lagging. Notice I also mentioned that a couple are ok in certain areas(gave reference to lat raises or tricep extensions). I`m not against isolations, I do them almost every workout I do, but for a beginner, theres bigger things to focus on. Save the calories/energy.

I'm not really a fan on your line of thinking at all. The beginner's entire body lags, yes. And thus he would presumably want to work all of his muscles so that they grow. Why should he not do arm/calf/shoulder isolation, only to later find that these areas lag 90% of the time?


Bigger things to focus on? Doing both compounds and isolation is not that hard, so I don't understand your compounds > iso mentality, as if you have to pick one.

You're right there, good point, a routine that is 100% compounds will not build calves. I agree, so, next time I make mention of this topic I`ll be sure to say, although, the calves dont really get worked by these compound movements. However, I still don't think a noob without any experience, coordination, and muscle mass needs to waste calories focusing his routine around fancy (oh my gosh he said fancy!!!) isolation movements.

You're justifying not doing exercises that will lead to more muscle mass due to calorie expendature? Seriously? That is idiotic. I think you over estimate the amount of calories burned in exercise.

Note for the drones without a sense of humour that read this thread.. I don't ACTUALLY think curls etc are fancy. I was using sarcasm.

Good.

[LiftingSteve93]

Better start doing some curls OP or you'll end up like me with decent strength and no biceps

[zildjian_4]

I'm not really a fan on your line of thinking at all. The beginner's entire body lags, yes. And thus he would presumably want to work all of his muscles so that they grow. Why should he not do arm/calf/shoulder isolation, only to later find that these areas lag 90% of the time?

Bigger things to focus on? Doing both compounds and isolation is not that hard, so I don't understand your compounds > iso mentality, as if you have to pick one.


You're justifying not doing exercises that will lead to more muscle mass due to calorie expendature? Seriously? That is idiotic. I think you over estimate the amount of calories burned in exercise.

Good.

1. As you already know but seem to have forgotten, I had already admitted to the other guy that he was right about calf isolation being necessary 100% of the time. SO scratch that off the list. Shoulders and arms lag 90% of the time? Have you not been in a gym lately? Pretty sure arms are a safe bet for most guys in there.

2. I also said(if you would read the whole thread) that at THIS PHASE, I dont believe it would be optimal to be doing extra isolation work when total body/compound moves are already going to be shocking an untrained body. Later on, after you adapt, sure, throw all the isolation you can handle, but, if a noob is doing deadlifts squats bench press pull ups dips plus their variations, I think isolating those muscles will be unnecessary until a plateau has been hit and the individuals body adapts to the current routine.

3. I was hoping to use the calorie idea as a figure of speech/ way to get the point across. LIke I've said I think that adding extra moves for someone who will already be in a phase of their routine (when do properly) would tax their body beyond what they can handle at first. The thing is, most people don't know that because they replace the compounds with isolations in hopes of "instantly"looking big.


So, will a 6'0 140 lber gain anything from all the compounds plus their variations and perhaps a couple isolations? Yes absolutely. I believe they'd be at the maximum amount of gains as far as training goes. Will they exceed more during the first few noob months of training if they add in lots of extra curls, pushdowns, crunches, forearms work, reverse curls? I don't believe so. If they add in isolations once their body adapts to real training(not curls and benching), then yes, at that point it would be beneficial.

[DerekEt]

Better start doing some curls OP or you'll end up like me with decent strength and no biceps

"Decent Strength". This guy Incline Benches 400, most likely Flat Benches 450, and calls himself "decent".

lol.

[zildjian_4]

I'm not really a fan on your line of thinking at all.

Maybe you spend too much time on a bb forum.. 9.3k posts in 15 months lol?

[BFair24]

if u rlooking to add size to ur biceps, ur best bet is the EZ bar curl bcuz:

1.) it allows for the heaviest weight
2.) easier progression
3.) EZ bar makes it more comfortable

This is wrong. The straight bar is a much better alternative as it forces your grip to be supinated putting the most tension on the bicep.

Anyways OP I had the same issue you have. My training routine either consisted of an upper lower split that didn't include direct arm work or a full body routine that didn't include bicep exercises. Like many others after coming onto the misc I bought into the myth that direct bicep work wasn't necessary, as a result everything on my body grew at the same pace while my biceps stayed stagnant. To me it looked horribly unaesthetic and I decided to do some direct bicep work. Since adding direct bicep work to my routine my bi's are quickly starting to catch up and are hardly lagging. I find I am much more pleased aesthetically with my overall physique now.

I do Biceps with Chest alternating between 1 bicep movement for 3 sets then 1 chest movement for 3 sets. Typically for chest one week I'll go heavy weight to improve strength then one week I'll focus on high reps for hypertrophy.

Flat Barbell Bench - 2 Warmup Sets, 3 Working Sets
Barbell Curl - 3x15
Decline Bench - 3 Working Sets
Alternating Dumbell Curl - 3x15
Cable Flies - 3x15
Preacher Curl Machine - 3x15

Also as another poster stated above, if you are feeling your bicep's becoming very tired or very sore during back workouts it's because you haven't developed the proper mind-muscle connection in your back. When I'm training my back my bicep's hardly get a pump, focusing on pulling through my elbows and feeling my back properly contract. I feel I work my back to a greater extent training this way.

[corepuncher]

SS is not a hypertrophy programme, which is why your size gains are slow.

If by SS you mean Shortcut to Size, it does indeed target hypertrophy, as you are doing 12-15 reps some weeks. I think it's a decent program, targets both size and strength.

If that is not what you mean by SS, please correct me b/c I see it a lot.

[-Lucifer]

If by SS you mean Shortcut to Size, it does indeed target hypertrophy, as you are doing 12-15 reps some weeks. I think it's a decent program, targets both size and strength.

If that is not what you mean by SS, please correct me b/c I see it a lot.

Starting Strength.

[BFair24]

If by SS you mean Shortcut to Size, it does indeed target hypertrophy, as you are doing 12-15 reps some weeks. I think it's a decent program, targets both size and strength.

If that is not what you mean by SS, please correct me b/c I see it a lot.

Starting Strength is a program that mainly focuses on strength gains through compound exercises.

[bravo96]

Maybe you spend too much time on a bb forum.. 9.3k posts in 15 months lol?

yerp and he also happens to be one of the most helpful members around.

[BFair24]

Maybe you spend too much time on a bb forum.. 9.3k posts in 15 months lol?

In This Post: I can't refute your argument so I'll digress to an ad-hominem.

[NZninja101]

1. As you already know but seem to have forgotten,

I didn't forget anything. I skimmed the thread, saw your post and analysed it and am now doing the same to this one.

I had already admitted to the other guy that he was right about calf isolation being necessary 100% of the time. SO scratch that off the list. Shoulders and arms lag 90% of the time? Have you not been in a gym lately? Pretty sure arms are a safe bet for most guys in there.

Probably because they don't listen to minimalist nazis on bb.com.

2. I also said(if you would read the whole thread) that at THIS PHASE, I dont believe it would be optimal to be doing extra isolation work when total body/compound moves are already going to be shocking an untrained body. Later on, after you adapt, sure, throw all the isolation you can handle, but, if a noob is doing deadlifts squats bench press pull ups dips plus their variations, I think isolating those muscles will be unnecessary until a plateau has been hit and the individuals body adapts to the current routine.

I don't really have much to say to that except that I strongly disagree and that the vast majority of novices who add a curl, an extension, and some shoulder raises will see more gains than those who do not.

3. I was hoping to use the calorie idea as a figure of speech/ way to get the point across.

It was unsuccessful.

LIke I've said I think that adding extra moves for someone who will already be in a phase of their routine (when do properly) would tax their body beyond what they can handle at first. The thing is, most people don't know that because they replace the compounds with isolations in hopes of "instantly"looking big.

So, will a 6'0 140 lber gain anything from all the compounds plus their variations and perhaps a couple isolations? Yes absolutely. I believe they'd be at the maximum amount of gains as far as training goes. Will they exceed more during the first few noob months of training if they add in lots of extra curls, pushdowns, crunches, forearms work, reverse curls? I don't believe so. If they add in isolations once their body adapts to real training(not curls and benching), then yes, at that point it would be beneficial.

Benching and curls are real training, as are other lifts.

Maybe you spend too much time on a bb forum.. 9.3k posts in 15 months lol?

I think you've shot yourself in the foot a little here. Ad hominem arguments probably hurt your reputation more than the person you're criticizing.

In This Post: I can't refute your argument so I'll digress to an ad-hominem.

lol

[bravo96]

Im in college right now. Isolation movements are used to bring up lagging body parts(bb'ing) or to strengthen weak muscles in the chain(IE your bench lock out sucks). Tell me why somebody that is 5 months into lifting with little muscle mass at all needs to worry about weakness/lagging muscles? You know why he thinks his biceps are too small? Because he looks at muscle mags/pics online and see's these guys with huge arms and thinks "wow I need bigger arms". Its a waste of time/effort to worry about delts 1 week into lifting.



I know these same guys, they told me they stopped flexing when you came around to throw you off from finding out thier secret bicep routines.

no isolations exercises are used for more than laggin bodyparts, they are used to ensure complete development.

why the **** would you wait untill something is lagging to train it?