Overthinking training and diet...

[Bo_Flecks]

<------------is very methodical about training and nutrition.

[cmoore]

I don't know anyone who truly excels that doesn't have some sort of program in place. Instinctual eating and training is a rare skill but even still I think those who can do that would do better on a structured regimen. That being said, no matter what side of the fence you're on, mediocre IN leads to mediocre OUT.

Since most of us here are recreational enthusiasts it comes down to "whatever works for you." If you're not where you want to be and if you look/feel/lift the same as last year, then it's time to reevaluate.

[Bando]

I do my workout, then get on with my life.

Your AVI backs you up on that !

[Brackneyc]

I never recorded anything... And my results showed. I tightened things up... And saw some results. My issue is consitent application of known effective methods.

I don't need to micromanage, but i do better with a plan.

[TCO76]

I follow sound advice from people that have results. Something led me to this site, or the lack of many somethings. I did it because I wanted to change my life. That said, I am utilizing technology that wasn't available 5 even 2 years ago. I think the information age is forcing new ideas into old philosophies. Many are reaping the benifits and many are stubborn to change old ideas. Reguardless of what spectrum one claims, nothing can replace hard work and determination. Also I have noticed that whatever one does, they will also defend.

[Bo_Flecks]

Your AVI backs you up on that !

I personally think this thread would be much more interesting if the respondents posted some kind of visual validation of their training protocols.

If you run your training and nutrition loosely and instinctually, post up a vid or pic to show how that it is working for you. The same thing goes for the analytical folks. Post up some visual evidence that your adherence to strict routine is providing you with decent results.

I am not saying that...



...but I do think it would be beneficial to see if there is a correlation between training approach and success level for individual goals, or if it is ultimately just a matter of making your training fit your personality type.

This is not a put up or shut up challenge. I just think it would help this thread reach its potential.

[induced_drag]

..., post up a vid or pic to show how that it is working for you. ...

I would post up a picture, but I dont think I have any handy








Noodz on request but only to bando

[Vanguard1965]

I think both ways can work, I also think they can both hold people back because either they analyze things so much it interferes with actually doing, or they eat like crap and don't track their workouts so they see little change.

For me since I compete, the question is more "what is optimal" instead of "what works" because many things work but I need what is optimal for me. I am trying to get the best results in the shortest period of time. In my off season I am trying to add as much muscle with as little fat as I can. When I am in contest prep I am trying to lose fat while maintaining muscle. Both require me to track my macro's, its not the big deal people make it out to be and in my mind is no different then tracking your training. How else can you make adjustments if you have no idea what you are really eating for macro's or tracking what you are lifting in the gym?

If you don't compete then those things are not as critical and as long as you are happy with the effort you are putting in versus the returns you are getting then who am I or anyone else to say your approach is wrong? There are many ways to eat and many ways to train and as long as you are happy with the results then nothing else matters.

As far as genetics go, I think many people use this as an excuse. I personally could give a rats ass about genetics because there is little I can do about mine. All I can do is be the best me I can be and that is by ensuring my nutrition and training are both optimal and putting in the effort and consistency. If you are not seeing the results you want be sure you look at both your nutrition and your training before saying you have bad genetics. You should be able to have a decent musclar build with low bodyfat regardless of your "genetics".

[cmoore]

I personally think this thread would be much more interesting if the respondents posted some kind of visual validation of their training protocols.

If you run your training and nutrition loosely and instinctually, post up a vid or pic to show how that it is working for you. The same thing goes for the analytical folks. Post up some visual evidence that your adherence to strict routine is providing you with decent results.

6 months Eating and Training Instinctually (right around 200 lbs):


6 months Eating and Training Regimented: (~180 pounds)

[EB68]

^^^ enough proof for me.

[Bo_Flecks]

^^^^ Bo after playing fast and loose with training and nutritional protocols.



^^^^ Bo after being very methodical about training and nutritional protocols.

The reason I have settled on a very analytical approach to my training is because I am always looking for ways to wring just a small percentage more benefit out of everything I do. Find enough of those small benefits, and they start to add up.

[ljimd]

Lift big, eat big 190# 2009


Pre-comp borderline OCD 153# 2011


More relaxed approach 160# 2012

[EB68]

Six months ago at the close to the end of a loosely regulated bulk, and training each muscle once per week haphazzardly.


four months later at 10 pounds less with meticulous tracking of food and training and working each muscle twice per week.



I am no where near where most her are, but at less than 18 months total training I am seeing what I believe to be good results.

My most recent pic. about 1 month ago.


No more pics until I reach my goal of 8% BF.

[TonyNail]

I definetly micromanage my nutrition. I have an ungodly appetite and am one of those people who can eat the whole pizza and box of wings and still be hungry. Training-wise, as long as my poundage over time trends upward then I am happy. Everything works, nothing works forever.

[Kingthumper]

Without question, in my personal experience nutritional tracking vs. haphazardly guessing the contents of a plate of food makes a huge difference in my results. I can get away with guesstimating and keeping a running tally in my head of what I've eaten for the day, but only for so long before it catches up to me...usually in the form of fat around the 'love handles' and tight pants.

For training, I keep things looser. I have a well thought out program with quality exercises that work for me, but only track reps/weight on the final working set on each of the major compound lifts included in my program. I don't track the reps/weight of isolation exercises or other instinctual on-the-fly type of exercises I may use in my training.

[induced_drag]

First "comeback" in 09

3 months of HARD training....no structure to diet....other then "cleaning it up" and drinking some shakes




Then I had about a year out.


2nd 'comeback' in early 2011
3 months of intensive nutrition....training routine THE EXACT SAME to the letter.... same reps, sets, volume...etc!




You tell me....same 3 months of training, only difference was diet.

[ArchAngel'73]

A svelte 270...lol, eating whatever and training like a FIEND.


A "skinny" 214...lol, counting macros and prepping for my 1st drug tested contest and training like a FIEND.


Originally I was 310 lbs., I ain't posting pics from them days.


Training never was my problem, neither was will power to train...but diet was always my Nadir.
I am one of those in which Bando speaks of, I hired Layne Norton and as you can see we did a pretty fukkin' good job leaning me out but I always have called my own shots in the gym as that's not my weak point.

The higher you go up the bodybuilding ladder the more disciplined you must get.
As my irl friend Vanguard1965 wrote "the question is more "what is optimal" instead of "what works"".

[Big_Sky_Guy]

So how do we determine where we are on the spectrum of underthinking = seat of the pants VS. overthinking = OCD?

Overthinking to me implies a negative. Like constantly second guessing your plan and changing things or stressing yourself out which will minimize your potential gains. Overthinking implies the amount of effort is not seen in the results.


Those people with a more detail and structure oriented mindset / personality are going to thrive in a structured program. They have to be careful not to let stress / fear into their process as it will negate their extra diligent efforts. Easy to be OCD in a negative way and out think themselves, constantly changing things and thereby limiting their effectiveness.

Those that are less structured by nature will thrive in a less structured program. This group needs to have the knowledge and understanding and apply the appropriate principles in a dedicated manner or they will not even get close to what their genetics will allow them. Easy to be sloppy...way to easy. And sloppy = sloppy.

And everything in the middle. Seems to me having just enough of the structured mentality to apply it to lifting and training and then being able to live a fairly care free life (not being OCD) would be the best of both worlds.

My guess is CMoore, Bo and ID are in this category. Unless they have a secret life of perfectly lined up supplement bottles and jugs on their counters and only 3 pens in the drawer, never more, and only 1 pencil, and it is red to track PR's.

[Bo_Flecks]

My guess is CMoore, Bo and ID are in this category. Unless they have a secret life of perfectly lined up supplement bottles and jugs on their counters and only 3 pens in the drawer, never more, and only 1 pencil, and it is red to track PR's.

My life is FAR from what I bolded. Here is part of a response about my attitude towards training that I put in induced_drag's "Get it" thread:

I have done my best to make sure my training has had as little impact on my family and my time with them as possible. I try to make it fit as seamlessly into all facets of my life as I can.

If there is anything that I am possibly OCD about, it is making sure my training NEVER negatively impacts my family.

[tazmanpa]

When I first started I just wanted to lose some weight and that was done without tracking much. I then decided that if I was going to spend the time I might as well take it to the next levle but unfortunately the next levle has been very dificult for me so I started tracking everything and I am trying to find what will work for me.

[induced_drag]

My life is FAR from what I bolded. Here is part of a response about my attitude towards training that I put in induced_drag's "Get it" thread:



If there is anything that I am possibly OCD about, it is making sure my training NEVER negatively impacts my family.

^^^^^^^^The above exactly. I am very loose and laid back about most things in life. My workouts too are a compromise. I have chosen only a 3day/ week workout so I take less time away from the family. During the school year, I often workout after we put the kids to bed. (they are young so 8pm workouts happen when I cant get in the gym eariler)

With regards to diet.... I chose, with the help of an education from great members on here like Ironwill, to eat a "normal" intake of food. I decided not to try CKD (which worked great for me in my 20's). Rather I just learned to plan and track.

Only thing you will notice is my food scale. At dinner, I ALWAYS eat what we are eating as a family. It does not matter if I am on surplus or deficit.....I make our family dinners fit in to my eating plans. Pizza, pasta, even Chick-fil-a nights,.....I eat what the kids eat and we do it as a family. Of course my portions change, and nights like pizza night, while on a deficit, take a little planning....but I make it work....and have gotten pretty good at it.

Overall.....I want my kids to learn a balanced view towards nutrition. My 9yo daughter is really picking up on things.... Good things, not obsessiveness. She is learning the value of nutrient dense food and picking fruit as snacks instead of fruit rollups. Sure, she still has candy....but opts to drink water at home instead of sugary drinks...etc. Overall, I feel very good about showing my kids something I never learned. Good solid balanced nutrition. I feel best about this!

Funny story, last night out to dinner, my son was so happy because they let him substitute steamed broccoli for the french fries. His palate has become very developed and he really has learned to LOVE fresh grilled and steamed vegetables. He is disappointed with McDonalds because he does not want fries! (Now I have to begin to wonder if he is really my child... because fries are my weakness )

[Big_Sky_Guy]

My life is FAR from what I bolded. Here is part of a response about my attitude towards training that I put in induced_drag's "Get it" thread:



If there is anything that I am possibly OCD about, it is making sure my training NEVER negatively impacts my family.

That's what I thought. You fellas and ladies have that unique ability to put (and keep) your training and nutrition in a box and not let it bleed all over your life. That is a unique skill that is natural to some and takes a lot of work for others.

Nutrition is hard work for me. I get my macros, just more than I need.

[Miranda]

So how do we determine where we are on the spectrum of underthinking = seat of the pants VS. overthinking = OCD?

are you talking about doing things 'by feel' vs 'having a plan'? i don't see how having a plan would be 'overthinking' things.

i've had results with both, and in general i see myself very much as a 'by feel' person. i only execute plans when i 'feel' they are needed

the plan might be relatively detailed, but that doesn't mean it's OCD. that would mean you don't really trust the plan, and stare at it and fiddle with irrelevant details as a way to do away your fear (that the plan won't work). OCD is in your head, not in the 'details'.

[IronCharles]

.... it is an 80/20 proposition. I am not willing to put in 80% more work for only 20% more effectiveness. Gaining only a few more percent on lifts or a couple extra pounds over the next 5 years is not worth the incredibly tedious and significant effort of tracking calories and following programs perfectly.

So how do we determine where we are on the spectrum of underthinking = seat of the pants VS. overthinking = OCD?

This is kind of "it" in a nutshell, isn't it? The law of diminishing returns. It all boils down to a risk vs. reward mentality. How much are we willing to sacrifice for that last little bit of gains, or that last little bit of leanness, or both? Is it worthwhile to sacrifice eating what you'd like to, for that last 1% of fat loss? Is the mental and physical stress of low carbs or keto dieting, or other forms of calorie manipulation offset by the pleasure of appearing how you want to look? And if it's not for a competition, is it still worth it?

I don't count calories or macros. Having suffered from disordered eating in my youth, micromanaging my food wouldn't be a smart move, mentally speaking.

Another interesting point. Is micromanaging one's macronutrients an eating disorder, or bordering on one?





Lots of good discussion! It's making me look at some things a bit differently.

[acrawlingchaos]

I think like anything else, there are those that can micromanage in a healthy manner, and those that do it in an unhealthy manner. I don't have negative associations with counting. I don't obsess if I miss my numbers (over or under). I don't hate the way I look, and I don't feel like I NEED to count.

Counting has been a great tool for me. Even those who are more intuitive can trouble shot with short term counting, and then ride the wave once they dial in. Personally, I am using the record keeping as a way of understanding what my intake and training trends are like. The more I learn WITH these tools, the more I find that I become more in tune with my training and diet WITHOUT them.

[highiso]

Easy as 123...

1. Follow intermittent fasting.
2. Lift heavy and hit macros.
3. Succeed.

You've all seen my photos no sense posting them.

[paolo59]

Lots of really good information and viewpoints! I find that I can be incredibly lazy when it comes to the 'nutrition' side of the equation. I am very organized and meticulous is many areas, the nutritional angle is sorely lacking in that department. Seriously, I should invest a little in a good nutritionalist, have a 'plan' drawn up (macros, a step by step for idiots) and then follow it! The working out is the easy part for me.

[Vanguard1965]

This is kind of "it" in a nutshell, isn't it? The law of diminishing returns. It all boils down to a risk vs. reward mentality. How much are we willing to sacrifice for that last little bit of gains, or that last little bit of leanness, or both? Is it worthwhile to sacrifice eating what you'd like to, for that last 1% of fat loss? Is the mental and physical stress of low carbs or keto dieting, or other forms of calorie manipulation offset by the pleasure of appearing how you want to look? And if it's not for a competition, is it still worth it?

I think that's the wrong question. Tracking macro's or tracking your workouts is not the big chore or massive amount of work its being made out to be. It's not hard, takes little time and as has been shown by others in this thread to make a big difference in their results, so it's not 80% more work for 20% more effectiveness. I would argue its 20% more work for 80% more effectiveness.

Another interesting point. Is micromanaging one's macronutrients an eating disorder, or bordering on one?

Why the choice of the word micromanage? Is recording your exercise, # of sets, reps and weight used for your workout micromanaging your training? I don't think so and neither is tracking you macro's. Constantly changing and analyzing them and what you are doing to death is micromanaging and certianly not something anyone should be doing. That is the OCD / micromanagement behavior that no one should be doing because it adds zero value and will probably hurt you in the long run.

[induced_drag]

I think that's the wrong question. Tracking macro's or tracking your workouts is not the big chore or massive amount of work its being made out to be. It's not hard, takes little time and as has been shown by others in this thread to make a big difference in their results, so it's not 80% more work for 20% more effectiveness. I would argue its 20% more work for 80% more effectiveness.



Why the choice of the word micromanage? Is recording your exercise, # of sets, reps and weight used for your workout micromanaging your training? I don't think so and neither is tracking you macro's. Constantly changing and analyzing them and what you are doing to death is micromanaging and certianly not something anyone should be doing. That is the OCD / micromanagement behavior that no one should be doing because it adds zero value and will probably hurt you in the long run.

Great points.

I agree completely. I have made the statement before that if people really want to succeed in the gym and are not getting the results they want, follow this plan.

Take one of their workouts every week....and skip it!

Spend that time planning your food for the week, cooking meals...etc. Do not even make it up.

Since most people workout 4-5 times a week....this will bring you down to a 4 or even 3 day a week workout. No big deal.... If you do this, I guarantee in 6 months you will be further ahead.




With regards to time invested, at this point I can generally plan a day in under 5 minutes. I use myfitness pal and just copy entire days and custom meals at this point. Makes it nice with the kids and school too because my wife and I are not scrambling around wondering what we are going to make the kids for dinner.

This really is not a hard thing to do..... I dont think some like to do it as it does take willpower to stick with it and not just eat what you want any particular day. That is the big adjustment.

[EB68]

I don't micro manage either one myself. I set a goal of calories and macros and eat what it takes to hit that goal as close as possible daily. If I want cake I eat it, then just adjust the rest of the day to fit. It takes about 10 minutes per day to workout my diet, and is well worth the return to me. I go over somedays, and fall short others but keep it as close as I can. After a while it is very easy to do and takes even less time once you know what combinations of food hit the mark. For example, my wife picks up a pizza every saturday, if I decide I want some of it, I then know what my last two meals will have to be to keep things where they need to be. Same with lifting, if I am really sore with the muscle group that I planned to work that day I will either swap the next workout around or take a day off and then resume as scheduled. The biggest part for me is tracking the calories and macro's on myfitnesspal and knowing what I am doing. You know how much weight you squatted last week, or how many reps you benched last week, but if you do not track your food you have no clue what you ate last week as far as calories are concerned. Guesstimating calories and portions has been keeping people overweight for centuries and always will. I see no need to carry extra pounds around, on my current cut I have increased the weight on every lift consistently. This may change once I get below 10% BF, but if you think going from 20% to 15% will kill your strength you are doing it wrong IMO.