Vanadyl Sulfate: Worthless and Toxic??

[ram_6000000]

I dont get why some manufacturers insist on including Vanadyl Sulfate in their formulas. Theres much better glucose disposal agents available, plus theres evidence indicating its not only worthless for adding muscle, but also toxic in doses over 1000mcg a day. The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving. I feel strongly about this because I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap. I only thank god the side-effects subsided once I quit taking the product. What do you all think about this?

[psych]

I dont get why some manufacturers insist on including Vanadyl Sulfate in their formulas. Theres much better glucose disposal agents available, plus theres evidence indicating its not only worthless for adding muscle, but also toxic in doses over 1000mcg a day. The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving. I feel strongly about this because I myself have experienced toxicity off this mineral. I was using ON VS5000, and after following the directions began experiencing flu and depression-like symptoms. One of my friends had his tongue turn blue after 3 months on this crap. I only thank god the side-effects subsided once I quit taking the product. What do you all think about this?

please provide references that we can also check out

[ram_6000000]

Man just do a quick search on the web, you'll see.

[Da Main Man]

Man just do a quick search on the web, you'll see.

this is the sceince section. you need to post references/studies otherwise its just "opinion".

[NO HYPE]

evidence indicating its not only worthless for adding muscle, but also toxic in doses over 1000mcg a day.

What evidence?

(not that I don't believe you.... but this is the science section, and you must edit your post and insert a link pertaining to the topic, or the thread will likely be closed)

[NO HYPE]

The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving.

Wow.... I don't take any supplements with vanadyl, so I had no idea that dosages were that high. I (think) the suggested, maximum daily allowance for vandium supplementation, is only around 2 mg or so.

[NO HYPE]

The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving.

My goodness.... how about 30 mg?

Maybe they are just trying to initiate DNA mutation, prior to workouts?


Extreme Drive Power Formula

Big-V Triple Strength

Kreaceps XS

[NO HYPE]

I really find it interesting that there are about six NO products on bb.com that contain vanadyl sulfate.... too bad it has been shown to induce pulmonary vasoconstriction, as a result of NO inhibition.



Environ Health Perspect. 2004 Feb;112(2):201-6.

Vanadyl sulfate inhibits NO production via threonine phosphorylation of eNOS.

Exposure to excessive vanadium occurs in some occupations and with consumption of some dietary regimens for weight reduction and body building. Because vanadium is vasoactive, individuals exposed to excessive vanadium may develop adverse vascular effects. We have previously shown that vanadyl sulfate causes acute pulmonary vasoconstriction, which could be attributed in part to inhibition of nitric oxide production. In the present study we investigated whether NO inhibition was related to phosphorylation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase (eNOS). VOSO4 produced dose-dependent constriction of pulmonary arteries in isolated perfused lungs and pulmonary arterial rings and a right shift of the acetylcholine-dependent vasorelaxation curve. VOSO4 inhibited constitutive as well as A23187-stimulated NO production. Constitutive NO inhibition was accompanied by increased Thr495 (threonine at codon 495) phosphorylation of eNOS, which would inhibit eNOS activity. Thr495 phosphorylation of eNOS and inhibition of NO were partially reversed by pretreatment with calphostin C, a protein kinase C (PKC) inhibitor. There were no changes in Ser1177 (serine at codon 1177) or tyrosine phosphorylation of eNOS. These results indicate that VOSO4 induced acute pulmonary vasoconstriction that was mediated in part by the inhibition of endothelial NO production via PKC-dependent phosphorylation of Thr495 of eNOS. Exposure to excessive vanadium may contribute to pulmonary vascular diseases.

[NO HYPE]

~

"High doses of vanadium (anything over 15 mg/day) may cause liver and/or kidney damage."

http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vanadium-000330.htm



Uses

The effects of vanadium have not been studied extensively in people. The majority of studies to date have been conducted in laboratory animals.



Body Building/Performance Enhancement

While vanadyl sulfate is widely used by athletes to enhance performance, beneficial effects have not been confirmed by studies. Use of vanadium is not advised because of the potential toxic effects associated with high doses of this mineral.



Adult

Taking 0.5 to 1.0 mg/day of vanadium is enough to meet or exceed nutritional requirements, without risking toxicity. No more than 1.8 mg/day should be used in people. Some manufacturers promote high dosages (15 to 100 mg) of vanadyl sulfate per day, but studies do not support such dosages, and they may be toxic. Because the safety and effectiveness of vanadium have not been thoroughly studied, caution should be exercised when using vanadium as a nutritional supplement.

[NO HYPE]

1: J Inorg Biochem. 1994 Aug 1;55(2):101-12. Links

One-electron reduction of vanadate by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH.

The one-electron reduction of vanadate (vanadium(V)) by ascorbate and related free radical generation at physiological pH was investigated by ESR and ESR spin trapping. The spin trap used was 5,5-dimethyl-1-pyrroline N-oxide (DMPO). Incubation of vanadium(V) with ascorbate generated significant amounts of vanadium(IV) in phosphate buffer (pH 7.4) but not in sodium cacodylate buffer (pH 7.4) nor in water. The vanadium(IV) yield increased with increasing ascorbate concentration, reaching a maximum at a vanadium(V): ascorbate ratio of 2:1. Addition of formate to the incubation mixture containing vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate generated carboxylate radical (.COO-), indicating the formation of reactive species in the vanadium(V) reduction mechanism. In the presence of H2O2 a mixture of vanadium(V), ascorbate, and phosphate buffer generated hydroxyl radical (.OH) via a Fenton-like reaction (vanadium(IV)+H2O2-->vanadium(V)+.OH+OH-). The .OH yield was favored at relatively low ascorbate concentrations. Omission of phosphate sharply reduced the .OH yield. The vanadium(IV) generated by ascorbate reduction of vanadium(V) in the presence of phosphate was also capable of generating lipid hydroperoxide-derived free radicals from cumene hydroperoxide, a model lipid hydroperoxide. Because of the ubiquitous presence of ascorbate in cellular system at relatively high concentrations, one-electron reduction of vanadium(V) by ascorbate together with phosphate may represent an important vanadium(V) reduction pathway in vivo. The resulting reactive species generated by vanadium(IV) from H2O2 and lipid hydroperoxide via a Fenton-like reaction may play a significant role in the mechanism of vanadium(V)-induced cellular injury.

[NO HYPE]

Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

Vanadium promotes hydroxyl radical formation by activated human neutrophils
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c9654615a39359

Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art03151

Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/con...stract/26/1/39

[eldawg]

My goodness.... how about 30 mg?

Maybe they are just trying to initiate DNA mutation, prior to workouts?


Extreme Drive Power Formula

Vanadyl Sulfate + Guanidinopropionic Acid + Glycocyamine = Triple Crown!!

[NO HYPE]

Vanadyl Sulfate + Guanidinopropionic Acid + Glycocyamine = Triple Crown!!

I wonder how long it will take to find these three, wonderful substances in one product?

[bigkarl]

Oxy-vanadium (IV) complexes having spermicidal activity
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6245808-fulltext.html

Vanadium promotes hydroxyl radical formation by activated human neutrophils
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c9654615a39359

Vanadium Distribution in Rats and DNA Cleavage by Vanadyl Complex: Implication for Vanadium Toxicity and Biological Effects http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=009...3E2.0.CO%3B2-H

Vanadium(IV)-mediated free radical generation and related 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and DNA damage http://www.ingentaconnect.com/conten...00001/art03151

Vanadium(IV) causes 2'-deoxyguanosine hydroxylation and deoxyribonucleic acid damage via free radical reactions http://www.annclinlabsci.org/cgi/con...stract/26/1/39

wow. why do people keep putting it in supplements? reps for the good links. does it actually have any benefits?

[NO HYPE]

wow. why do people keep putting it in supplements? reps for the good links. does it actually have any benefits?

"The effects of vanadium have not been studied extensively in people. The majority of studies to date have been conducted in laboratory animals.

In a number of animal and a few human studies, vanadyl sulfate has improved insulin sensitivity and reduced blood sugar in those with both type 1 and type 2 diabetes. In one study of people with type 2 diabetes, vanadium also lowered their total and LDL ("bad") cholesterol.

Although these studies show promise, the long-term safety of vanadium has not been established. Therefore, use of vanadium for diabetes, particularly without guidance from a knowledgeable healthcare provider, is not recommended until more information is available."

[Surive123]

There's some in my Rag and WF

I shouldn't be that worried though, correct?

Also amazing find again No HYPE

[NO HYPE]

There's some in my Rag and WF

I shouldn't be that worried though, correct?

Also amazing find again No HYPE

Well, with a suggested daily limit of just under 2 mg, and possible liver and/or kidney damage at 15+ mg a day.... you decide.

[Random907]

Kreaceps has got to be one of the best products I have tried and the only new thing that I have not had prior experience with was the vanadyl sulfate, but then again type 2 diabetes does run in my family.

[Millennium 1]

Straight elemental vanadium and vanadyl sulfate are two different critters Especially when it comes to bioavailability, toxicity and efficacy. I think the line is being blurred here.

[Trans_Isomer]

The thing I don't get is all these companies putting insulin mimetics in their products meant for PRE-workout use. Who wants low blood sugar going into a workout when the workout itself already lowers blood sugar

talk about some nausea

[DRP7]

[color=blue] "
In a number of animal and a few human studies, vanadyl sulfate has improved insulin sensitivity and reduced blood sugar in those with both type 1 and type 2 diabetes. In one study of people with type 2 diabetes, vanadium also lowered their total and LDL ("bad") cholesterol.

interestingly, one study found that vanadyl supplementation did not help with insulin sensiivity in non-diabetic obese individuals.

Diabetes. 1996 May;45(5):659-66.

Oral vanadyl sulfate improves insulin sensitivity in NIDDM but not in obese nondiabetic subjects.

Halberstam M, Cohen N, Shlimovich P, Rossetti L, Shamoon H.
Department of Medicine, Diabetes Research Center, Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Bronx, NY 10461, USA.

We compared the effects of oral vanadyl sulfate (100 mg/day) in moderately obese NIDDM and nondiabetic subjects. Three-hour euglycemic-hyperinsulinemic (insulin infusion 30 mU / m / min) clamps were performed after 2 weeks of placebo and 3 weeks of vanadyl sulfate treatment in six nondiabetic control subjects (age 37 +/- 3 years; BMI 29.5 +/- 2.4 kg/m2 ) and seven NIDDM subjects (age 53 +/- 2 years; BMI 28.7 +/-1.8 kg/m2). Glucose turnover ([3-3 H]glucose), glycolysis from plasma glucose, glycogen synthesis, and whole-body carbohydrate and lipid oxidation were evaluated. Decreases in fasting plasma glucose (by approximately 1.7 mmol/l) and HbAlc (both P < 0.05) were observed in NIDDM subjects during treatment; plasma glucose was unchanged in control subjects. In the latter, the glucose infusion rate (GIR) required to maintain euglycemia (40.1 +/- 5.7 and 38.1 +/- 4.8 micromol / kg fat-free mass FFM / min) and glucose disposal (Rd) (41.7 +/- 5.7 and 38.9 +/-4.7 micromol / kg FFM / min were similar during placebo and vanadyl sulfate administration, respectively. Hepatic glucose output (HGO) was completely suppressed in both studies. In contrast, in NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate increased GIR approximately 82% (17.3 +/- 4.7 to 30.9 +/- 2.7 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05); this improvement in insulin sensitivity was due to both augmented stimulation of Rd (26.0 +/-4.0 vs. 33.6 +/- 2.22 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05) and enhanced suppression of HGO (7.7 +/- 3.1 vs. 1.3 +/- 0.9 micromol / kg FFM / min, P < 0.05). Increased insulin-stimulated glycogen synthesis accounted for >80% of the increased Rd with vanadyl sulfate (P < 0.005), but plasma glucose flux via glycolysis was unchanged. In NIDDM subjects, vanadyl sulfate was also associated with greater suppression of plasma free fatty acids (FFAs) (P < 0.01) and lipid oxidation (P < 0.05) during clamps. The reduction in HGO and increase in Rd were both highly correlated with the decline in plasma FFA concentrations during the clamp period (P < 0.001). In conclusion, small oral doses of vanadyl sulfate do not alter insulin sensitivity in nondiabetic subjects, but it does improve both hepatic and skeletal muscle insulin sensitivity in NIDDM subjects in part by enhancing insulin's inhibitory effect on lipolysis. These data suggest that vanadyl sulfate may improve a defect in insulin signaling specific to NIDDM.

PMID: 8621019 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
[/quote]

not only it doesn't further improve insulin sensitivity in non-diabetics, it may also exert an anti-lipolytic effect!!!

[ram_6000000]

Thank you NO HYPE and Dr. P, you both are very knowledgeable. I'm sorry I got lazy with the references, but in my opinion yes vanadyl sulfate is some dangerous ****. And I myself dont agree with putting insulin mimickers in a pre-workout formula. I have felt a little light headed from time to time and wonder if low blood sugar is to blame due to my use of those ingredients pre-workout.

[cgcgraded]

Ive said it b4, I'll say it again....I really like VS.
30mg preworkout with alot of carbs.
must be cycled though

[Millennium 1]

The "average" dose most manufacturers include is 5mg per serving.

Remember that 5mg of vanadyl sulfate doesn't even yield 1.5mg of elemental vanadium.

[NO HYPE]

Remember that 5mg of vanadyl sulfate doesn't even yield 1.5mg of elemental vanadium.

References please?

[NO HYPE]

Remember that 5mg of vanadyl sulfate doesn't even yield 1.5mg of elemental vanadium.

Straight elemental vanadium and vanadyl sulfate are two different critters

Care to elaborate?

[Millennium 1]

Care to elaborate?

Vanadyl sulfate is vanadium chelated to sulfate. It is typically 20-30% vanadium (depending on purity and manufacturer) by weight so you can't just assume that 10mg of vanadyl sulfate equals 10mg of elemental vanadium. It's simple chemistry. You have to figure in the weight of the chelated compound too.

Just like 1500mg of glucosamine sulfate doesn't yield 1500mg of elemental glucosamine or 5 grams of creatine magnesium chelate doesn't yield 5 grams of creatine.

[NO HYPE]

Vanadyl sulfate is vanadium chelated to sulfate. It is typically 20-30% vanadium (depending on purity and manufacturer) by weight so you can't just assume that 10mg of vanadyl sulfate equals 10mg of elemental vanadium. It's simple chemistry. You have to figure in the weight of the chelated compound too.

Just like 1500mg of glucosamine sulfate doesn't yield 1500mg of elemental glucosamine or 5 grams of creatine magnesium chelate doesn't yield 5 grams of creatine.

References?

[Millennium 1]

References?

We don?t need references. Here are the simple molecular weights of vanadium and vanadyl sulfate. As you can clearly see vanadyl sulfate is more than just vanadium with a molecular weight of 163 opposed to 50.941 for vanadium.



Here are two examples of the ranges in purity of VS on the market. One is 31% elemental vanadium by weight and the other is 19.5% elemental vanadium by weight.

Biochem- Vanadyl Sulfate
975mcg of Vanadium from 5000mcg Vanadyl Sulfate = 19.5% elemental vanadium by weight

Optimum Nutrition- VS-10
10mg of Vanadyl Sulfate yielding 3.1mg of vanadium (31% elemental vanadium by weight)

[CognitiveNutrition]

References please?

References?

LOL references for basic science facts.