Intermittent Fasting for Strength Training and Fat Loss - Part Two

[J.Thomas]

Havent been in this thread for a few days, my geek side has taken over (Science & Tech threads)

Ending my 3rd week of IF, 1 more of cutting then bulk begins.
Sitting around 153 dry in the mornings.

For some reason i can find myself to drink coffee with creamer (10 cals a tsp) but cant bring myself to drink crystal light (10 cals a packet). I guess in my mind the thermogenic effect from the caffein helps to kill those 10 cals from the creamer? Maybe...lol

[Jenslyn17]

Actually something I haven't thought about which might be kinda stupid... I don't think it matters much but had to bring it up

Doing the fasted training with no pre-workout meal these days and it seems to work well! Thing is, I've used Jack3d for most workouts lately which is a supplement that Martin recommends. Recently I ran out but I do have some NO Xplode left over which I like too. Used it yesterday and planning on using it today, but ofc it has some calories in it. It's probably not a big deal at all, but Martin seems to only allow an extremely limited amount of calories before the workout.

Would you guys think NO Xplode is ok to take, or would it be breaching the fast prematurely so to speak?

[limelite]

Actually something I haven't thought about which might be kinda stupid... I don't think it matters much but had to bring it up

Doing the fasted training with no pre-workout meal these days and it seems to work well! Thing is, I've used Jack3d for most workouts lately which is a supplement that Martin recommends. Recently I ran out but I do have some NO Xplode left over which I like too. Used it yesterday and planning on using it today, but ofc it has some calories in it. It's probably not a big deal at all, but Martin seems to only allow an extremely limited amount of calories before the workout.

Would you guys think NO Xplode is ok to take, or would it be breaching the fast prematurely so to speak?

Should be fine, I think. Even his recommendation of Xtend contains trace calories around ~40 kcal per serving (and to think he recommends around 30g of BCAAs, which is around 4 servings), allows a few kcals of milk added to your coffee during the fasted state and if NO Xplode is only 25* kcal, it should be fine.

[bazak]

Should be fine, I think. Even his recommendation of Xtend contains trace calories around ~40 kcal per serving (and to think he recommends around 30g of BCAAs, which is around 4 servings), allows a few kcals of milk added to your coffee during the fasted state and if NO Xplode is only 36 kcal, it should be fine.

^^ should be okay, assuming you sticking to just one serving (25 calories)

[UNTILthen]

How much do you currently weigh? Any idea on current BF%?

I'm 5'9 214 lbs. ~18%

Using the Katch-McArdle formula:

BMR = 370 + (21.6 * LBM in kg)
= 370 + (21.6 * 79.7kg)
= 370 +1722.9
= 2092.9

maintenance = activity factor (1.5) x 2092.9
= 3139 cals

I know that's what the formula comes out to, but it doesn't work for me. I bulked this past fall (Sep-Dec) and put on 20 lbs at 3000cal/day.

Back in January when I was following a typical 5-6 meals per day schedule, I was hitting ~2200 cals/day on lifting days and ~1800 cals/day non-lifting days. And I was dropping about 1.5 lbs/week.

[Dexter3000]

Doing IF has made my after-dinner crash significantly stronger.

Nowadays when I break the fast (2pm) I feel the effects on my energy/focus pretty heavily. Even though it is only a 300-500 calorie meal I almost fall a sleep within 15min after eating it.

Does this mean I have become more insulin sensitive? Is it because the bigger fluctuations of blood sugar/insulin levels during the day, compared to all meals spread over the day?

[FitDad327]

Boom, I fast till 10pm everyday. Progress pics:

Hey Man,
Great progress. I am in a similar place physique wise compared to your week 1 photo. I am kind of at a crossroads as to what my plan is for the next 5 months. I'm not sure if I should bulk and then cut or just do a slower recomp and was just curious which route you have been following over the last 10 weeks. Thanks

[viennafat]

Boom, I fast till 10pm everyday. Progress pics:

Nice job man.
Give us more details on what you're currently doing.
Are you on a deficit, doing the standard 16/8 fasted/fed hours, type of training?

[marlinus]

hi guys, i just read martin's post on "Fasted Training Boosts Endurance and Muscle Glycogen"
the studies found that women showed a stronger respond when training in the fed state.

what do you guys think? does that mean it will always be better for women to have one/two pre-workout meal/s before training?

[bazak]

hi guys, i just read martin's post on "Fasted Training Boosts Endurance and Muscle Glycogen"
the studies found that women showed a stronger respond when training in the fed state.

what do you guys think? does that mean it will always be better for women to have one/two pre-workout meal/s before training?

always is a very bold statement to make, best is to give both a go and see how YOUR body responds best

[limelite]

Just curious for those who train fasted, how many scoops of Xtend do you guys take? 2 scoops gives 7.1g of BCAAs, so you need around 9 scoops to get Martin's recommendation of 30g in BCAAs. Are you all actually following this? I only do 3 scoops. If I did 8 scoops, that would finish my tub in less than 15 days!

[bazak]

I'm 5'9 214 lbs. ~18%

Using the Katch-McArdle formula:

BMR = 370 + (21.6 * LBM in kg)
= 370 + (21.6 * 79.7kg)
= 370 +1722.9
= 2092.9

maintenance = activity factor (1.5) x 2092.9
= 3139 cals

I know that's what the formula comes out to, but it doesn't work for me. I bulked this past fall (Sep-Dec) and put on 20 lbs at 3000cal/day.

Back in January when I was following a typical 5-6 meals per day schedule, I was hitting ~2200 cals/day on lifting days and ~1800 cals/day non-lifting days. And I was dropping about 1.5 lbs/week.

BMR formulas are normally very good at determining starting points but need to be adjusted based on weight loss/gains, looks like you already have a good idea about overall calorie intake.

A good starting point would be:

1-1.5g/lb protein
.35-.5g/lb fat
where carbs make up the rest

Following the leangains approach I would keep protein consistent and adjust fat based on activity level, lower on training days and higher on rest days

[PJbrah]

Just curious for those who train fasted, how many scoops of Xtend do you guys take? 2 scoops gives 7.1g of BCAAs, so you need around 9 scoops to get Martin's recommendation of 30g in BCAAs. Are you all actually following this? I only do 3 scoops. If I did 8 scoops, that would finish my tub in less than 15 days!

I could have sworn when I looked at my tub it said 12.xx grams per serving...but I could be wrong ill have to double check

[Jenslyn17]

Should be fine, I think. Even his recommendation of Xtend contains trace calories around ~40 kcal per serving (and to think he recommends around 30g of BCAAs, which is around 4 servings), allows a few kcals of milk added to your coffee during the fasted state and if NO Xplode is only 25* kcal, it should be fine.

^^ should be okay, assuming you sticking to just one serving (25 calories)

Thanks for the advice! I'm quite tolerant to stims, though, so I tend to use upwards of 2.5 scoops... guess it's not ok then? But when it comes down to it, do you guys really think it matters? Such a tiny amoun and it kicks assin the gym :/

[marlinus]

always is a very bold statement to make, best is to give both a go and see how YOUR body responds best

thanks bazak, im definitely gonna give a go and see whats best for me. i was just asking for opinions though

anyway, another question about training. how do you guys do your cardio? right after training, cardio at am and weight training at pm, or do you guys just do cardio on every other day?
thanks!

Just curious for those who train fasted, how many scoops of Xtend do you guys take? 2 scoops gives 7.1g of BCAAs, so you need around 9 scoops to get Martin's recommendation of 30g in BCAAs. Are you all actually following this? I only do 3 scoops. If I did 8 scoops, that would finish my tub in less than 15 days!

i take 6 scoops of mdoern bcaa (20grams bcaa+glutamine) and i drink it right before, during and after training.

[The Solution]

Just curious for those who train fasted, how many scoops of Xtend do you guys take? 2 scoops gives 7.1g of BCAAs, so you need around 9 scoops to get Martin's recommendation of 30g in BCAAs. Are you all actually following this? I only do 3 scoops. If I did 8 scoops, that would finish my tub in less than 15 days!

Read the recommendation on the side of the jug. 4 scoops of xtend. Take that. thats 14g of BCAA's which is pefect (10g) that martin gives. Not to mention Xtend is probably the most cost effective on the market. You can find it as cheap as 36$ for 90 servings when on wheycheap or other sales (Check Marc Lobliners ******** for up to date sales) that happen all the time.

Martin RECOMMENDS 10g of BCAA's for pre/intra workout, dose that.

[trader vlad]

thanks bazak, im definitely gonna give a go and see whats best for me. i was just asking for opinions though

anyway, another question about training. how do you guys do your cardio? right after training, cardio at am and weight training at pm, or do you guys just do cardio on every other day?
thanks!

i take 6 scoops of mdoern bcaa (20grams bcaa+glutamine) and i drink it right before, during and after training.

I re-read leangains.com for you:

I am in disagreement with Tom's cardio recommendations and consider them counterproductive. Especially if used in the context mentioned in the book. After weights, or 8 hrs after weights, is about the worst time to do cardio**. The research he cites to claim that moderate amounts of cardio can help muscle growth is also flat out wrong (or cherry-picked).

Add cardio or whatever else to get your energy expenditure up. A personal favorite of mine is lower intensity and longer duration activities like walking in the 12-16 hour time interval of the fast. Not only is this the "golden age" of subcutaneous fat oxidation, but lower intensity activities selectively use fatty acids to fuel the activity. There are other reasons I favor low intensity over high intensity activities (such as HIIT). They interfere minimally with your performance in the gym and can be done on a daily basis, which is not the case with HIIT.

I've gotten myself and several clients very lean without supplementation, cardio, and with fed state training.

While there seems to be some clear benefits of fasted cardio in terms of improving endurance and muscle glycogen storage, this form of training may hamper muscle growth by a few different mechanisms. Besides being potentially catabolic to muscle growth by accelerating de novo gluconeogenesis (the conversion of amino acids to glucose), it may also interfere with cellular adaptations to weight training.

Some people rely heavily on cardio in order to maintain their leanness. This allows them to be somewhat more lenient with their diet. I am however no fan of cardio and don't use it to stay lean. In my view cardio as a strategy to maintain a low body fat percentage is not only time-consuming, but also a sure-fire way to hamper muscle and strength gains. If nor time or muscle gain is a concern then by all means continue your cardio regimen. But considering my priorities and those of my clients, I focus on the macrocomposition of the diet to maintain the lean state.

Elevated levels of cortisol can cause water retention, potentially due to interfering with aldosteron (a hormone that regulates fluid balance). Excessive cardio, particularly of the more intense variety (HIIT), and low calorie intakes increases cortisol.

* Only do low intensity steady state cardio, such as walking or similar activities with a low perceived rate of effort.

* Never attempt to train yourself into a caloric deficit. Don't spend hours on the treadmill. Diet comes first, cardio second. The dumbest fat loss strategy ever devised is used by people that wake up early in the morning before going to work to do cardio and follow that up with "recovery shake." Congratulations, you just wasted two hours of your life. Cardio is good for cardiovascular health, but most people use cardio as a fat loss tool - and force themselves through regimens that aren't very conducive to their daily routine (or mental sanity). Next time, skip the shake and the cardio. Sleep two hours longer, but skip breakfast and fast until lunch time. This way you can create the same caloric deficit with the added bonus of feeling more rested and having saved more time. You'll be much better off.

Q: Is there any way to perform cardio in a way that limits its catabolic effects? Is their any benefit to doing submaximal intervals vs. steady state?

A: The type of cardio that has the least impact on your recovery capabilities/gym performance will be the least "catabolic". If your conditioning is not adequate, don't play around too much with HIIT. Go with low impact cardio performed for duration rather than intensity if you want to play it safe, and if metabolic conditioning is of a lesser priority than fat loss.

Summary:
If you do cardio go for low intensity and short periods in a fasted state.
Don't do cardio after lifting
Don't do high impact/moderate or high intensity cardio which may impact your recoverability.
If you really want to save muscle mass, it's best to not do cardio at all.

I do cardio once or twice a week on my off days. It's usually moderate intensity HIIT style (muay thai with a heavy bag, or mountain biking). I do it because its fun and keeps up my cardio for sports and maintains my skills.

[UNTILthen]

BMR formulas are normally very good at determining starting points but need to be adjusted based on weight loss/gains, looks like you already have a good idea about overall calorie intake.

A good starting point would be:

1-1.5g/lb protein
.35-.5g/lb fat
where carbs make up the rest

Following the leangains approach I would keep protein consistent and adjust fat based on activity level, lower on training days and higher on rest days

Well if 1-1.5g/lb protein and .35-.5g/lb fat are good protocols to follow, two macros in my example days stand out...

Training day...

1783 calories
30g fat
142g carb
222g protein

Non-training day...

1654 cals
83g fat
71g carb
159g protein

I need more fat on the training days and more protein on the non-training days. The thing is that I was totally satisfied yesterday at 1783 cals and didn't feel deprived at all. Eliminating 300-400 cals I typically eat in the morning...trying to force in those calories later in the day would have been...well....forced. I'm on a cut, so I just figure lowering my cals even more and keeping an adequate amount of protein (like I did) would be a good thing.

[IrishPilot]

I got these when I ate on a more common schedule, but I would have to say that they are far more challenging when IFing. Doesnt help that I also train at ~5am and dont break the fast usually until lunchtime if not well after.

Having one of those days. Immense hunger, incredible cravings, wicked mind games. Seems these days when cutting weight I usually get a day of crazy hunger about once a week or so. 6 out of 7 days I have no major hunger issues, but man that one day it feels out of control.

Makes me wonder what is going on in the mind/body, especially in a continued calorie deprived state.

[kels_88]

Read the recommendation on the side of the jug. 4 scoops of xtend. Take that. thats 14g of BCAA's which is pefect (10g) that martin gives. Not to mention Xtend is probably the most cost effective on the market. You can find it as cheap as 36$ for 90 servings when on wheycheap or other sales (Check Marc Lobliners ******** for up to date sales) that happen all the time.

Martin RECOMMENDS 10g of BCAA's for pre/intra workout, dose that.

I agree, read the container. Since they spell it out in grams, I just weight it. I've found a leek scoop to be about 8g, which makes sense if they recommend two scoops a serving and want you to go through their product faster. I hit the 11g serving recommendation witha heaping scoop.

[PJbrah]

just read my xtend container...1 serving = 2 scoops = 14 grams

[PuffinMyLye]

I got these when I ate on a more common schedule, but I would have to say that they are far more challenging when IFing. Doesnt help that I also train at ~5am and dont break the fast usually until lunchtime if not well after.

Having one of those days. Immense hunger, incredible cravings, wicked mind games. Seems these days when cutting weight I usually get a day of crazy hunger about once a week or so. 6 out of 7 days I have no major hunger issues, but man that one day it feels out of control.

Makes me wonder what is going on in the mind/body, especially in a continued calorie deprived state.

Are you keeping active/busy? Or do you have a job where you sit most of the time and don't move around much? I find it easiest to keep hunger under control by keeping myself busy and moving around whenever I can.

just read my xtend container...1 serving = 2 scoops = 14 grams

Just keep in mind that's not a full 14g of BCAA's though. Only about half that is BCAA's.

[totally_dude]

I plan on fasting for one day (Sunday) every week to accelerate my cutting... I will be dosing 10g BCCAs every 2 hours during the fast and eating nothing else, would this be too catabolic or will I be OK? i will not be lifting on sunday, i sit around on the TV all day

[kels_88]

just read my xtend container...1 serving = 2 scoops = 14 grams

I don't want to pick at straws b/c we're getting slightly off topic here, but it really depends what type you have. Look at the nutritional data, use the drop down for different types: http://www.bodybuilding.com/store/sv/xtend.html

Blue Raspberry: 1 serving ~14g
Watermelon: 1 serving 11.5g

Regardless, I have a scale in the kitchen right by the cabinet where I store this stuff, so it takes me about 2 extra seconds to weigh it out.

Xtend is a precise, scientific blend of Energy Aminos consisting of the surmised 2:1:1 ratio of Branched Chain Amino Acids (L-Leucine, L-Isoleucine and L-Valine), Glutamine, Citrulline Malate, and Vitamin B6 that will give you the energy you need to maximize your training while promoting recovery at the same time.

Just keep in mind that's not a full 14g of BCAA's though. Only about half that is BCAA's.

Exactly, the part bolded above means to me that only half of your serving is actually BCAAs, but I'm still only using 1 serving (11.5g) each time I take it. YMMV, dont know if it will make a huge difference in the long run.

[IrishPilot]

Are you keeping active/busy? Or do you have a job where you sit most of the time and don't move around much? I find it easiest to keep hunger under control by keeping myself busy and moving around whenever I can.
...

Yeah I dont usually have a problem keeping hunger under control, Im more just venting how its strange that I get random days of unreal hunger. It can be a busy day, or a quiet day...doesnt matter. STARVING.

[viennafat]

Can I get some opinions in relation to this study: http://www.leangains.com/2009/12/pre...etabolism.html

For someone who's implementing a 1or2 pre-wo meal approach, would it make sense to ingest protein or BCAAs to take advantage of what is desrcibed in the above article?

Say you have your 1 pre-wo meal (which contains protein) a few hours before you train, would it be advantageous or pointless to then ingest protein or BCAAs again like 20 minutes before training?
Thanks

[PuffinMyLye]

Exactly, the part bolded above means to me that only half of your serving is actually BCAAs, but I'm still only using 1 serving (11.5g) each time I take it. YMMV, dont know if it will make a huge difference in the long run.

I can't quantify the difference it makes but I personally sip 2 servings of xtend (4 scoops) b4 and into my workout when I train fasted.

Yeah I dont usually have a problem keeping hunger under control, Im more just venting how its strange that I get random days of unreal hunger. It can be a busy day, or a quiet day...doesnt matter. STARVING.

Haha I get you, in that case, VENT ON!

But on a serious note, I've had days like that where hunger is a lot worse than other days. I view it the same way as I do my training. Gotta go through some pain to look good. It's a means to an end.

[fni]

Re-calculated my macros. I feel like I need to up my fats more on rest days, but I find it so difficult to up them fats. Might need to venture into the keto forums for this

WO Days

~ 2900 --- 215 / 82 / 325

Rest

~ 2300 --- 215 / 90 / 150

Summary:
If you do cardio go for low intensity and short periods in a fasted state.
Don't do cardio after lifting
Don't do high impact/moderate or high intensity cardio which may impact your recoverability.
If you really want to save muscle mass, it's best to not do cardio at all.

I do cardio once or twice a week on my off days. It's usually moderate intensity HIIT style (muay thai with a heavy bag, or mountain biking). I do it because its fun and keeps up my cardio for sports and maintains my skills.

Yep. I love cardio. Relaxes me, and promotes overall well-being (and has an immense amount of benefits for cognition, too)!
I do cardio whenever I can on my rest days. Also throw in yoga whenever I can. It's just something I love doing, so if you enjoy it -- go for it. No research study should get in your way :P

[PuffinMyLye]

Re-calculated my macros. I feel like I need to up my fats more on rest days, but I find it so difficult to up them fats. Might need to venture into the keto forums for this

WO Days

~ 2900 --- 215 / 82 / 325

Rest

~ 2300 --- 215 / 90 / 150

Nut butter (I can never get enough natty PB)? Olive oil? Flaxseed oil? Fish Oil? Whole nuts like almonds? I never have a hard time getting my fats in, it's keeping them low that can be tough.

[fni]

Nut butter (I can never get enough natty PB)? Olive oil? Flaxseed oil? Fish Oil? Whole nuts like almonds? I never have a hard time getting my fats in, it's keeping them low that can be tough.

pb and nuts is what I live by. and hard-boiled eggs recently. but it gets boring.. throw out some creative recipes!