EDIT: Since people are having a hard time actually reading the context - this is about eating an animal WHILE IT IS LIVING. I am not at all against using animals as food if they are killed humanely FIRST. Eating an octopus means it dies slowly and in fear, while its sensitive legs are chewed to a pulp, and eventually its brain is crushed.
This is a response to this thread: http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=106816381
In particular, the idea that an octopus is not intelligent and cannot feel pain:
I'm going to do something terrible and start off by quoting Wikipedia, as I did in that thread, only because it's easier than trying to find several peer-reviewed articles that are viewable to people here (I have a university login that I use for article searches.)
It is also information that is in line with my own research, and it cites sources:
The complex nervous system leads us to the understanding that they feel pain. They must have a highly attuned sense of touch in order to forage, so they will also be able to feel other sensory input. Animals that can grope their way over rocks and lcoate prey that way are going to know full well when you chew them up while they are still conscious. Just because we cannot show that SOME invertebrates feel pain does not mean we can apply that to all of them. An octopus is a far cry from an earthworm.Octopuses are highly intelligent, probably more intelligent than any other order of invertebrates. The exact extent of their intelligence and learning capability is much debated among biologists,[1][2][3] but maze and problem-solving experiments have shown that they do have both short- and long-term memory. Their short lifespans limit the amount they can ultimately learn. There has been much speculation to the effect that almost all octopus behaviors are independently learned rather than instinct-based, although this remains largely unproven. They learn almost no behaviors from their parents, with whom young octopuses have very little contact.
An octopus has a highly complex nervous system, only part of which is localized in its brain. Two-thirds of an octopus's neurons are found in the nerve cords of its arms, which have a remarkable amount of autonomy. Octopus arms show a wide variety of complex reflex actions arising on at least three different levels of the nervous system. Some octopuses, such as the Mimic Octopus, will move their arms in ways that emulate the movements of other sea creatures.
In laboratory experiments, octopuses can be readily trained to distinguish between different shapes and patterns. They have been reported to practice observational learning,[4] although the validity of these findings is widely contested on a number of grounds.[1][2] Octopuses have also been observed in what some have described as play: repeatedly releasing bottles or toys into a circular current in their aquariums and then catching them.[5] Octopuses often break out of their aquariums and sometimes into others in search of food. They have even boarded fishing boats and opened holds to eat crabs.[3]
In some countries, octopuses are on the list of experimental animals on which surgery may not be performed without anesthesia. In the UK, cephalopods such as octopuses are regarded as honorary vertebrates under the Animals (Scientific Procedures) Act 1986 and other cruelty to animals legislation, extending to them protections not normally afforded to invertebrates.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octopus
In her article "Cephalopod consciousness: Behavioral evidence," Jennifer A. Mather writes the following abstract:
Behavioural evidence suggests that cephalopod molluscs may have a form of primary consciousness. First, the linkage of brain to behaviour seen in lateralization, sleep and through a developmental context is similar to that of mammals and birds. Second, cephalopods, especially octopuses, are heavily dependent on learning in response to both visual and tactile cues, and may have domain generality and form simple concepts. Third, these animals are aware of their position, both within themselves and in larger space, including having a working memory of foraging areas in the recent past. Thus if using a ?global workspace? which evaluates memory input and focuses attention is the criterion, cephalopods appear to have primary consciousness. [Copyright 2008 Elsevier]
Consciousness & Cognition; Mar2008, Vol. 17 Issue 1, p37-48, 12p
Here is an article that explains how some octopus thinking is diffuse rather than brain-centered: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1529397.stm
This goes along well with their need to be able to change color and pattern very rapidly for camouflage and communication. This article in particular addresses the need for an specialized and eleborate nervous system for their arms. Remember, a back bone is not needed for a nervous system, thus they can and do feel pain. You cannot lump all invertebrates together in that. They have an very well-developed sense of touch that is used to forage - probably far more finely tuned than your hands. Can you imagine someone chomping away at your fingers because they find it important to their taste buds and culture?
This is a very long and in-depth article that seems quite objective about their intelligence: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines...6/cephpod.html
A lot of good info there on actual studies. It appears the the octopus may be capable of learning from others of its species rather than through the usual means used in laboratory studies of them. This needs more research, but is a huge indicator fo intelligence if true. Not all mammals are capable of accomplishing this, much less invertebrates.
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03-31-2008, 04:23 AM #1
Staberella - Octopus intelligence
Last edited by sheduma; 03-31-2008 at 11:10 AM.
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03-31-2008, 04:33 AM #2
Another article: http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/...604&issueId=53
The central nervous system of the octopus is among the largest and most complex in the invertebrate world, rivaling that of many vertebrates, including birds and fish.
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03-31-2008, 05:52 AM #3
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03-31-2008, 07:26 AM #4
Food chain people..... octopus is below people, end of story.
Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 07:28 AM #5
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03-31-2008, 07:38 AM #6
Perfectly.
No, it's not the end of the story. You do nothing to justify eating an animal alive. Just because you're capable of doing something to a "lesser" creation doesn't mean you should. If you want to play by those rules, I'm going to start killing all of those humans I said I would eat if their meat was available. Hey, as long as I can overpower them/outsmart them, they are below me on the food chain. F*ck emotions and pain. What do I care. I mean, humans aside, can you imagine eating a primate alive? You'd have to be some sort of a sociopath to do that.
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03-31-2008, 07:43 AM #7
Live squid dipped in soy sauce and hot sauce is good. Very tasty especially when the Octopus has it's tentacles wrapped around your face trying to get out of your mouth. Yes I'm a heartless piece of **** and a sociopath like probably a billion other Asians in this world. U mad?
Let's put a smile on that face :)
Semper Fi
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03-31-2008, 07:43 AM #8
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03-31-2008, 07:46 AM #9
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03-31-2008, 07:47 AM #10Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 07:49 AM #11
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And?
You don't walk onto a farm and take a bite out of a cow's ass while he's chewing his cud, do you?
You don't get served a live hen at KFC, do you?
Hell - you probably don't even eat many raw vegetables, so why eat living octopi?
Why are you trying to bring religion into this?******
I'm American, not German. There's a difference between "location" and "nationality". Thanks.
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03-31-2008, 07:51 AM #12
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03-31-2008, 07:53 AM #13Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 07:53 AM #14
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03-31-2008, 07:54 AM #15
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03-31-2008, 07:56 AM #16Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 07:59 AM #17
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03-31-2008, 08:00 AM #18Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 08:01 AM #19
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03-31-2008, 08:03 AM #20
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03-31-2008, 08:04 AM #21
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03-31-2008, 08:05 AM #22
And then you get to kill and eat it... Seems a little more connected to the food than getting a cheeseburger at McD's where you never even have to deal with death. But at least the cow that you ate that lived in a cage got a humane death by bolt to the head.
BTW, never said I invented the net.. and why would I have to, it's already been done. It's called borrowing ideas, a common practice in the real world.Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 08:07 AM #23
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03-31-2008, 08:10 AM #24
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03-31-2008, 08:15 AM #25
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03-31-2008, 08:16 AM #26
Yeah, because I own a bunch of cows that I could just go butcher...
I've killed animals to eat them, your not going to ever make me feel guilty about that, a Tool song puts it quite well.. "life feeds on life, this is necessary". It sounds to me like your the one who couldn't deal with having to eat meat if it meant having to kill it first.Last edited by Rune; 03-31-2008 at 08:18 AM.
Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 08:21 AM #27
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03-31-2008, 08:27 AM #28Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless, like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle, it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot, it becomes the teapot. Water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend. - Bruce Lee
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03-31-2008, 08:30 AM #29
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03-31-2008, 08:32 AM #30
I'm sorry you'd turn into a sobbing, pathetic mess, or that you'd go around torturing things while you gnawed on them, if you didn't have a murderious god to give you orders, but some of us don't work that way.
Um, this isn't just about eating something; it's specifically about eating something alive. You don't think you need a justification for that? Then why do I need a justification for eating my neighbor alive? Or torturing kittens for amusement? Or raping babies because I hate babies?
I guess we should stop all those bully lions from eating gazelles too, I mean, beginning to feed on something before it's dead.. the horror!
Damn hippies.
I never said anyone is a sociopath for eating an octopus alive; I was refering to primates. But my previous judgement on people who eat octopus alive still stands.
Oh, well I guess that justifies anything you do. Just so long as it feels better for you, you can do anything you want. Remember that when I bite your mother's head off while she's still alive.
lol, you crack me up.
You can kill things without them even knowing what's happening. And the dumber a creature, the less aware they will be.
This is about all I see you contribute to this section. Pretty insignificant and pointless.
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