Zach G. - Crank Up The VOLUME!

[webmaster]

Mike Mentzer started the HIT method and thousands followed. See why the HIT method is not for ectomorphs and volume training is!

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/zach8.htm

HOW TO REVIEW: Post Your Review Of This Article - CLICK ON POST REPLY BELOW! You do NOT need to be a registered member to post a reply in this section!

[aicyellowjacket]

Definitely agree with the resting no more than a minute between sets!

[D&G]

HIT was, as everyone knows already, started by Mike Mentzer.

Good start! - did you actually do any research whatsoever??? everyone knows Mentzer DID NOT start HIT - it was started by Arthur Jones long before Mentzer came along thats basic info and shows you really know nothing about the subject matter.

a single set on any exercise, as much effort as you put into it, cannot fully tax a muscle

Wrong again, HIT is NOT about training a single set to failure - Mike Mentzer himself never ever advocated one set per bodypart -if you had read his writings or any of the basic HIT information you would know this.

Pummel and pound the muscles for those 45 minutes and show no mercy

You never heard the phrase stimulate not annhilate? Your trying to make muscles grow not destroy them.

consider that no man besides Mentzer in the IFBB ever followed the HIT principles

What's that got to do with anything? Your talking about a group of elite individuals with great genetics and huge amounts of androgens that allow them to train any length of time they want to because they have increased recovery ability - what the pro's do has no bearing whatsoever on what the average person does. Musclemania Natural champion Markus Reinhardt was personally trained by Mike Mentzer and uses HIT - I think he is a better reference that what the pro's do. If you want a pro other than Yates who has used HIT - Aaron Baker - he was personally trained by Mentzer as well.


You fail to make a single valid point in your article - just because you like volume and use it well you draw the conclusion that HIT is ineffective - you didn't bother to take note of the many people that use it successfully - you claim BS but have nothing to back up what you say. You simply said I like volume so volume is best - if your going to slate something have some sort of evidence rather than your own opinion. All you refer to is 'I think' or 'I do'.

As for your own workout anyone who can do 5 sets of squats with only a minute in between is not training very hard or squatting very deep - squats are brutal - I need at least 3-4 minutes to clear my head and regain my breath after an intensive set.

[Aussie machine]

This is crazy, and i thought Ryan Maclains articles were bad, this tops the cake.

[Ozzymt]

thats funny. lol

I thought that Dorian Yates used the 1 set to failure method also though. Could be wrong, but then again the blood and guts video must have featured Dorian's identical twin.

[D&G]

what makes Dorian's story even more instructive is the fact that from the very beginning he rejected the high-set, volume approach and followed the HIT (high intensity training) philosophy of bodybuilding. Influenced by the teaching of Mike Mentzer - it made sense, he says - Dorian began with hard, brief and infrequent workouts. That system - and great genetics - took him to the pinnacle of the sport of bodybuilding, the Mr. Olympia title, not once but six times. Even as a beginner, Yates never did more than three sets per exercise and one of those sets was a warm-up. Over a period of several years, he progressed to doing only one all-out main set (after warm-up). That method, consistently applied, made him the world's best bodybuilder

[El Greco]

would that leg workout work for me and i am a im between a endo and ectomorph body

[Beast]

Leg Extensions - 2x20 (warmup) - View
Squats - 5x8 - View
Hack Squats/Leg Press - x9 - View
Lunges - 3x10 (each side) - View
Leg Extensions - 3x12 - View
Sissy Squats - 2x9 - View
Stiff-Legged Deadlifts - 3x9 - View
Leg Curls - 4x9,9,9,20 - View
Standing Calf Raises - 4x12 - View
Leg Press - 4x12 - View

LOL, I stopped reading after that.

Squats: 5x9, failure on all sets, 225, 205, 185, 175, 155. (View)
Why not rest longer and use a higher weight?

[ZachG_85]

Ugh.

All right, I'm sorry for the historical misnomers I put in there. Parts of it I wasn't 100% on (like HIT starting by Mentzer, I had forgotten about the others).

HIT is about few sets, period. Severe HIT-ers will do ONE set per exercise. With this you cannot disagree. Mentzer himself at the end advocated one set per exercise, two days per week. I NEVER SAID ONE SET PER BODY PART. I SAID ONE SET PER EXERCISE, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE.

I swear, no one gives their fellow HIT-ers so much ****.

I come here, I decide that volume needs some representation, and I get ****in destroyed for it because all of you LOOOOOOOVE your precious ****in low sets. You don't think high volume works? Fine.

But you wanna give me **** for what I've found DOES indeed work? You wanna talk about the **** I've talked with pros about? HIT is NOT nearly as effective as all you people think it is. And fine, I ****ing apologize for missing some of the finer points of HIT.

And Yates did NOT use HIT, D&G. You are wrong, plain and simple. Yates trained with up to 6 sets per body part. If you watched his damn video you'd see he did set after set after set per body part. He trained 5 days a week, for an hour and a half at a time. If that's brief and infrequent, I'd sure hate to see your definition of volume.

So you know what? **** you all. You want to shred me for something that works? You ask me why not wait longer? Simple, I'm not going for strength, I'm going for hypertrophy, and if I sit on my ass, all I'll do is get stronger.

AND DON'T COMPARE ME TO ****IN MCLANE! He advocated 2 and a half hour workouts, for ****'s sake. He said things like "I don't know what would happen, but it probably wouldn't be good."

You wanna squat with me? You don't think it's possible to go balls out on every set and not wait around 3 or 4 minutes? Guess what? It is, and I do it, week after week. I fail on a set, and keep going. I've hit failure on squats for nine consecutive sets in the past. And moreover I did it, plus the remainder, in under an hour.

You HIT guys seem to think it's your way or nothin. I have admitted in the past that HIT can work for some, but volume gets NO representation here. So I try to do what I can, and this happens because you disagree with me.

[D&G]

1 - I didn't say volume doesn't work

2 - I don't use HIT and I never tell others to use it, don't accuse me of being an HIT or not at all person - I simply do not use HIT and you'll never see me saying its the best way to train.

3 - Yates did warm ups before one set to failure for 2-3 exercises -HIT is a set of principles not a workout set in stone - he said it was his own version based on his personal preference which was governed by superior genetics and lots of drugs. In his own words he said he used his own version of HIT. Yes I have seen his video - he quite clearly does warm ups to one all out set.

You wanna squat with me?

No, I squat heavier and more intense than you which is why I need fewer sets - I train to build muscle not endurance or stamina which is what you seem to be doing.

this happens because you disagree with me

I made one comment at the end regarding your choice of workout - 95% of what I was saying was clearing up the mis-information in your article - you just admitted you didn't research it. I don't care what training you do, I only care when you make incorrect statements.

You wanna talk about the **** I've talked with pros about

Who cares, I don't give a toss what Ronnie or Cutler does - they have a ton of drugs, great genetics and all day to sit around eat and recover - what they do has no bearing on what Joe Average does.

Why all the expletives - don't think you can get your point across rationally without resorting to **** all over the place - real mature.

Have a read of this -

Appointed by the American College of Sports Medicine, these expert’s recommendations for the best way of building muscle mass and strength include:


• Work large muscle groups, such as legs, chest and back, before small muscle groups, such as triceps and biceps.

• Chose multiple-joint exercises, like barbell squats and dead lifts, before single-joint exercises, such as leg extensions and curls.

• Overload is the key factor to muscle growth. Load (resistance) must be constantly increased in order to produce a growth/adaptation response.

• Once past the novice stage, emphasis of heavy loads in the 1-6 maximum rep-range is most effective.

• Use at least three-minute rest periods.

• Training volume should be kept minimal to avoid overtraining.

• A training frequency of 4–5 sessions per week is recommended for experienced lifters, and 2–3 sessions a week for novice trainers.

• Train muscle groups once a week, twice a week is the maximum (you are already doing this if you incorporate a shoulder workout into your program).

• Chronic muscle damage (soreness) is not a prerequisite of muscle growth—muscle growth still occurs without severe muscle damage.

Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise. 34:364-380,2002

[aicyellowjacket]

I don't think that the problem lies in the fact that you prefer high volume. We all train in different ways and what works for you is what counts the most. I can't speak for everyone but I think that the problem that they have with the article is the fact that you seem to hate on HIT and some of the facts on the history were off. That's just what I interpreted from all of the posts and trust me, I have been flamed for some of my articles too. Don't worry about it, take it as a learning experience and move on. You have written plenty of high quality articles so you are entitled to this one. You have written plenty of articles that are better than mine. I don't think that the comparison to McLane was fair. My only suggestion would have been to stray away from the HIT part and just state your reasons as to why you prefer high volume which you did so it wasn't a total waste.

[Mark21087]

1. D & G, if my muscles can recover faster than yours, why should I only do 4-5 sets when I can do 20+ sets, and still recover from it quickly?

2. Zach, I do agree with you about High Volume, but maybe your 30+ sets was too much for legs. Generally, I will stick around 18-20.

3. Other people might think it's crazy, but Zach and I make our best gains off of High Volume. Sure, low volume has given stregnth gains, but not muscle gains. I have been doing 18-20 sets for legs the past year, and it has helped me attain 26' legs.

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by webmaster
Mike Mentzer started the HIT method and thousands followed. See why the HIT method is not for ectomorphs and volume training is!

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/zach8.htm

HOW TO REVIEW: Post Your Review Of This Article - CLICK ON POST REPLY BELOW! You do NOT need to be a registered member to post a reply in this section!

Mentzer did not start HIT. Jones did. Jones was a brillent man that wanted to make money. He did just that. He died a rich man and his Jedi's such as Bryzcki follow him as of today. But we know Bryzcki is the most laughed at S&C in the nation.


Kc

[FortifiedIron]

http://www.drsquat.com/index.cfm?act...e&articleID=74

Shall I show you pieces where Mel Siff bashes HIT? Wuld u also like pieces of ME bashing HIT?




Kc

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by D&G
1 - I didn't say volume doesn't work

2 - I don't use HIT and I never tell others to use it, don't accuse me of being an HIT or not at all person - I simply do not use HIT and you'll never see me saying its the best way to train.

3 - Yates did warm ups before one set to failure for 2-3 exercises -HIT is a set of principles not a workout set in stone - he said it was his own version based on his personal preference which was governed by superior genetics and lots of drugs. In his own words he said he used his own version of HIT. Yes I have seen his video - he quite clearly does warm ups to one all out set.


No, I squat heavier and more intense than you which is why I need fewer sets - I train to build muscle not endurance or stamina which is what you seem to be doing.

**Who said he doesnt gain mass? Granted he might build endurance but your taking into the wrong account of his training ability and history. So basicly you mean to tell me training at high resp as a newbie you wont gain strenght or mass?

I made one comment at the end regarding your choice of workout - 95% of what I was saying was clearing up the mis-information in your article - you just admitted you didn't research it. I don't care what training you do, I only care when you make incorrect statements.


Who cares, I don't give a toss what Ronnie or Cutler does - they have a ton of drugs, great genetics and all day to sit around eat and recover - what they do has no bearing on what Joe Average does.

Why all the expletives - don't think you can get your point across rationally without resorting to **** all over the place - real mature.

Have a read of this -

[FortifiedIron]

Appointed by the American College of Sports Medicine, these expert’s recommendations for the best way of building muscle mass and strength include:


• Work large muscle groups, such as legs, chest and back, before small muscle groups, such as triceps and biceps.

• Chose multiple-joint exercises, like barbell squats and dead lifts, before single-joint exercises, such as leg extensions and curls.

• Overload is the key factor to muscle growth. Load (resistance) must be constantly increased in order to produce a growth/adaptation response.

******This contridicts HIT.

• Once past the novice stage, emphasis of heavy loads in the 1-6 maximum rep-range is most effective.

***** Whats a novice?

• Use at least three-minute rest periods.

****** What backs this?


• Training volume should be kept minimal to avoid overtraining.

**** can you say Bulgarians? Chinese? Russian?

• A training frequency of 4–5 sessions per week is recommended for experienced lifters, and 2–3 sessions a week for novice trainers.

*** and who and where did this get validated from?

• Train muscle groups once a week, twice a week is the maximum (you are already doing this if you incorporate a shoulder workout into your program).

***** who and where did this get validated from?

• Chronic muscle damage (soreness) is not a prerequisite of muscle growth—muscle growth still occurs without severe muscle damage.

** agreed
Medicine and Science in Sport and Exercise. 34:364-380,2002

[long_play_id]

Hey, yall guyz, why do u give a **** about his article? Or the writer or the article?

If 30+ sets for legs works for you, fine, if 12-18 sets works for others, fine, I think that the only way any of you could ever start discussing and saying which is better is at the gym, lifting and showin some muscle. Not here, whatever you say here will be forgotten within minutes, though in a gym, if you see someone teaching you something and actually seeing for yourself the results it has, there is more impact and maybe remember for the rest of your life. So give it a rest to this dumb discussion and go lift like the real men do.

[$-=SeAn NaL=-$]

I highly disagree with your opinions....but that's all bodybuilding is...opinions.....everyone has one and to someone else, the opinions suck...so, whatever...but at least state the fact that the article is simply your opinion instead of trying to make it seem like what you are saying is fact when it really isn't...

[D&G]

Originally posted by Mark21087
1. D & G, if my muscles can recover faster than yours, why should I only do 4-5 sets when I can do 20+ sets, and still recover from it quickly?

When did I tell you to do 4-5 sets When did I tell anyone not to do 20 sets I never made a single statement about training volume

3. I have been doing 18-20 sets for legs the past year, and it has helped me attain 26' legs.

I've been doing far less sets for legs and my legs are bigger than yours - does that prove anything? - no.

[D&G]

Originally posted by FortifiedIron

This contridicts HIT.

Shall I show you pieces where Mel Siff bashes HIT? Wuld u also like pieces of ME bashing HIT?

Who's promoting HIT here? not me, I merely pointed out the incorrect statements made about HIT - at no time did I encourage anyone to use it or make any statement about its validity. I don't care if you bash HIT, I don't use it, I don't advocate it - you've taken on the mantle of disproving HIT but theres no one here to argue against since not one person in this thread has said anything contradictory to what you are trying to say - read more carefully before you next decide to start on a crusade.



The study I quoted was not my beliefs - it was just a study to give a broad outline on efficient training methods - did I say it was gospel? did I say it was how to train? no, it was merely some suggested reading, in no way, shape or form did I agree with it I just suggested reading it for information - again, read more carefully next time.

[Ozzymt]

Originally posted by ZachG_85
Ugh.

And Yates did NOT use HIT, D&G. You are wrong, plain and simple. Yates trained with up to 6 sets per body part. If you watched his damn video you'd see he did set after set after set per body part. He trained 5 days a week, for an hour and a half at a time. If that's brief and infrequent, I'd sure hate to see your definition of volume.

This is wrong. Dorain did do 1 working set per exercise. He also trained for no more than 1 hour per session and worked a 2 on 1 off split routine. Meaning he worked out 4 out of every 6 days.

I never said that volume doesn't work either. Im training westside barbell which is very high volume, especially compared to HIT training and i am finding that it works very well. But westside barbell still only requires no more than 1 hour in the gym at a time and the routines are constructed wisely so as to avoid overtraining and maximise gains.

If you want to write an article you have to accept the critisim that comes if you are wrong.

[ZachG_85]

My incorrect statement was that Menzter did NOT start it. I apologize for not proofreading.

Now listen up, I never set one set per body part. I said one set per exercise. There's a difference, learn to read before shredding me. One set of flyes, flat bench, and incline bench is different than just one set of presses. And my statement stands.

You successfully corrected me on one incorrect statement. Congratulations.

"Stimulate, don't annihilate." I believe that's a mutation of Lee Haney's "Assimilate, don't annihilate." And regardless you're taking a statement from a man who lived in an era where two hour workouts weren't uncommon, and it was believed that you had to change your training the closer you got to a contest. Oh, and he thought that flyes improved "the quality of the shape of a muscle," whatever that may mean.

I don't know why I'm replying, I guess the thread went a lot longer than I was expecting it to, and I needed to say one last thing.

You say I don't know about HIT, well how many low set low rep articles were written by people who don't know **** about volume? How often do I read articles by folks who think 12 reps means not going to failure? Or that if you're doing three sets it means you can slack off on the first one or two? VERY few writers have the first clue about volume training, yet it's perfectly all right for them to come out and rip it apart, thinking that they know what it's all about.

It pisses me off that no one bitches about the inconsistancies and horrendous mistakes in articles revolving around intensity, but when I freakin mess up Mentzer/Jones, and because I don't like HIT, I get killed. If I had written the same article, from the other side, with nothing added to it, there would not be ONE angry comment. Not one.

Before you worry about the splinter in MY eye, you might want to work on that plank in yours.

Okay, now I'm done. I'm unsubscribing to the thread, if there's anything you for some reason REALLY need to tell me, I may check my PMs once in a while.

[D&G]

Originally posted by ZachG_85

You successfully corrected me on one incorrect statement. Congratulations.

I also corrected you on the statement where you said no other IFBB pro had used HIT.

I couldn't care less what you think of HIT and whether you want to rip into it - you made incorrect statements and I corrected them.

I'm not sure who you are directing your comments at because I made one statement about your squats - I said nothing else whatsoever about your choice of volume, if I saw an article about HIT that had incorrect statements in it I would point those out as well - I've done it with plenty of articles - I've seen mistakes and pointed it out that is the purpose of a review section.

I'll make this bold as it seems to be a point of some confusion fora lot of people

I do not use HIT, I do not promote it - I did not make a single comment about the level of sets you emply in your workouts - I never said a thing about volume training - I just pointed out some errors in your article. You make statements like 'pummel' the muscle - WTF is that? You write an article you put it out there to be commented on, if you make an error your gonna get called on it - I don't give a **** about your choice of volume ok! If there were no errors in your article I would have had nothing to comment on

[FortifiedIron]

D&G,
You know i hate HIT. The superior method is Periodiziationg, end of discusion.

In the article Zach merely stated what worked for him with high volume. Volume can be a bad thing and a good thing. To some high volume isnt what it takes and to others it is. This is why I really hate studies that say what posted above. Its hard to take into account every single person when every single person is so different in many ways.


Kc

[str8flexed]

Zach calm down dude. Not everyone will agree with you. You may think that you can put everything into 30 sets but I'm telling you... you would have much more focus doing 10 or 12 sets. I do hate it when people say "X amount of time between sets is optimal" The optimal time between sets is the amount of time it takes for you to be 100% ready for your next set (unless your doing glycogen depletion training). This will vary from bodypart to bodypart. Doing a heavy set of squats absolutely murders your body... not just the muscular system, but the nervous system as well, it also requires an enourmous amount of oxygen consumption. If you don't take enough time to get your breath back (hell takes me at least 3 minutes) then your not going to be able to put maximal effort into the next set, because you won't have enough oxygen. Also, I do not agree with doing leg extentions before squats... I"m not a big fan of pre-exhuast... your not helping to stimulate that muscle any further and you may actually decrease stimulation by it tiring you out and you having to use less weight on your big moving exercises like squats, where you are getting the REAL STIMULATION from.

Peace,
-Layne

[Beast]

That's what I was saying. Instead of resting a minute and having to decrease your weight so much, why not rest longer (I also rest 3 minutes on squats) and keep your weight up.

[Mark21087]

Originally posted by Beast
That's what I was saying. Instead of resting a minute and having to decrease your weight so much, why not rest longer (I also rest 3 minutes on squats) and keep your weight up.

Muscles dont' care about the weight your lifting, only the stimulation your giving them. If I can get the job done in less time with less weight, why not? Decreased chance of injury using less weight. That is why powerlifters are alot stronger than bodybuilders, but bodybuilders have much more muscle than them.

[str8flexed]

muscles dont' care about weight only stimulation eh? Well most studies show that muscles get the best "stimulation" when they are overloaded the most... this normally happens with heavy weights.

[Mark21087]

Originally posted by str8flexed
muscles dont' care about weight only stimulation eh? Well most studies show that muscles get the best "stimulation" when they are overloaded the most... this normally happens with heavy weights.

I'm not saying don't lift with heavy weights but you don't necessarily need the heaviest, but I am a huge fan of pre-exhaustion.

For chest, I always do flyes first so I can make sure that they fail before/with my triceps and deltoids on chest presses. And leg extensions before squats so I can make sure my qauds fail before/after my hamstrings, glutes, and calves. You may not like it, but it has worked for me.

[Beast]

Originally posted by Mark21087
Muscles dont' care about the weight your lifting, only the stimulation your giving them. If I can get the job done in less time with less weight, why not? Decreased chance of injury using less weight. That is why powerlifters are alot stronger than bodybuilders, but bodybuilders have much more muscle than them.

Why limit the weight you can use by not resting?
Yesterday for squats, I did 375 X 6, 5, 4 with 3 minute rest periods between. So you're saying I would grow more If I did, 375, 325, 275? Because after one set with 375 lbs. I'm toast if I don't rest. Why would I limit the overload on my legs when I could rest and then use the higher weight?