Morning Cardio

blackpoodle · 02-17-2003, 09:29 PM

Do you recommend having anything pre-cardio in the morning whilst cutting?
At the moment I just drink some water with 5g Glutamine and have an eca.
Should I have some protein & a little dextrose pre-cardio in the morning?

janderstein · 02-17-2003, 09:34 PM

I would say no, if you are looking for optimal fat burning, make sure there are no ways that that pesky fat is going to get away from you, the glutamine is a good idea.

Timbo · 02-17-2003, 09:37 PM

I'm really not a proponent of the fasted-state cardio. I'm going to do a little more research, but I don't think it's necessary. True, with ingested carbohydrate, you're going to blunt fat oxidation during exercise, but this really shouldn't be your primary concern. Your primary goal should be to crank it up and burn as many calories as possible. Now, I know you didn't ask what type of cardio, but I see all fingers pointing towards HIIT for optimal fat loss.

blackpoodle · 02-17-2003, 11:39 PM

I`m doing HIIT for 15 minutes 2-3 times a week.
In your opinion, what should I do for pre/post cardio nutrition?

Timbo · 02-18-2003, 05:54 AM

Poodle: Excellent choice:-) I'm going to get back to you on pre-workout nutrition. I hope L-Train jumps in, as I'm sure he can shed some light. For post-workout, I similar liquid drink to what you'd take after lifting will suit you well. Alternatively, you could just eat a whole-food protein and carb meal as soon as possible--the latter is what I choose because I like to use my jaw:-)

Gareth · 02-18-2003, 06:09 AM

I always have a plain protein meal (tuna) before my morning cardio. This has been effective so far. Fat is loss and muscle is retained.

pinoy · 02-18-2003, 09:32 AM

i'm going to start HIIT also, i'm also puzzled as to what nutrition i should have on these HIIT days...mostly what people have said is to not eat 1 hour before, and to have dextrose/protein afterwards.

**str8flexed** · 02-18-2003, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timbo
I'm really not a proponent of the fasted-state cardio. I'm going to do a little more research, but I don't think it's necessary. True, with ingested carbohydrate, you're going to blunt fat oxidation during exercise, but this really shouldn't be your primary concern. Your primary goal should be to crank it up and burn as many calories as possible. Now, I know you didn't ask what type of cardio, but I see all fingers pointing towards HIIT for optimal fat loss.

word.

Read E-Dawg's article... www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

cortisol levels are high in the morning anyway... throw in cardio in a fasted state... how much muscle do you want to lose???? b/c this will get the job done for you.

cookie_monster · 02-19-2003, 12:58 AM

Has anyone tried using BCAA's pre cardio? Did you feel it prevented muscle catabolism at all? Is it a wortwhile supplement to include in your diet?

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 06:37 AM

BCAAs are great but they do nothing to lower cortisol levels to my knowledge and thus you are stilll stuck with a hormonal problem.
Peace

Timbo · 02-19-2003, 06:59 AM

I agree with L-Train. I'm doing some experimenting myself, as well as some others I keep in touch with, as far as pre-cardio nutrition.

Personally, I don't see a need to perform it first thing in the morning--mind you, I'm speaking of HIIT. Some of the others I know are consuming protein and carbs about an hour or so beforehand--in liquid form--because they are doing it as soon as possible after awakening.

If you're going to do HIIT first thing in the morning, I would tend to lean on the side of L-Train, in that you should have some protein and carbs. I'm not a fan of the high GI breakfast like our buddy E-Street advocates, but it's a viable option.

I think that BCAAs are a solid addition before, during and after any type of intense training.

Gareth · 02-19-2003, 07:13 AM

Timbo, can I just ask.

Wouldn't it be better to just consume a whole-food protein meal alone?

Wouldn't that control cortisol somewhat without the need for additional carbs.

Wouldn't it also prevent muscle wasting during the cardio itself.

Of course this is in relation to doing cardio upon wake.

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 08:46 AM

no, protein will do little to counteract high cortisol levels.

Timbo · 02-19-2003, 10:27 AM

I concur with L-Train. The only thing that's going to suppress cortisol is going to be insulin. Your best bet to get some insulin going is to consume some carbs--which I don't feel need to be high GI. However, a huge meal of protein will stimulate insulin secretion, so you'd have the same effects. But from a physiological standpoint, the huge protein meal would have the same effects of protein and carbs, so you might as well choose the latter.

Be aware that I'm speaking of HIIT here. I'm not sure what I'd recommend regarding a moderate intensity exercise.

css6 · 02-19-2003, 11:05 AM

str8,

I'm a little confused. In your article "What Makes a Bodybuilder a Bodybuilder", you advocate cardio before breakfast while cutting. Is that just old data and you've since changed your mind?

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by css6
str8,

I'm a little confused. In your article "What Makes a Bodybuilder a Bodybuilder", you advocate cardio before breakfast while cutting. Is that just old data and you've since changed your mind?

I was young and foolish at the time. I like that article but would like to change that part of it. I have most definately changed my ideals about cardio since then.
peace

blackpoodle · 02-19-2003, 04:05 PM

In the article which str8flexed provided a link to, thanks BTW, it suggests to bracket the HIIT morning cardio with dextrose, protein, creatine & glutamine.

For someone like me who is 194lbs/18-20%BF & just starting off cutting, how`s this look?

30 mins pre-cardio:
30g dextrose
11g protein - 1/2 Optimum
5g creatine + 5g glutamine + 1 eca

*15 minutes of HIIT*

immediately following cardio:
30 dextrose
22g protein - 1 Optimum
5g creatine + 5g glutamine + Multi-V + 1000g VitC

30 minutes post-cardio:
oatmeal & eggs.

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 04:15 PM

if that is the way you work it up for a non workout day that's fine... but if you are working out that day... you may want to workout after your 2nd post cardio meal so you can take advantage of those carbs and also the insulin spike.
Peace

**Bignbuff** · 02-19-2003, 04:42 PM

This might be a stupid question but...

I realize that it is important to eat before cardio due to cortisol. But, some of you guys are promoting eating carbs before which I don't understand since the cardio you'll be doing will only be using carbs for energy and not burning the fat you want to lose.

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 05:51 PM

read this article again www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

research has shown time and time again that it is not what kind of tissue that your burn while doing cardio that is important... but rather the amount of total calories you burn (thus creating calorie deficit) and the rise in baseline metabolism you get from the cardio.

Another misconception is this "fat burning" zone of staying at low intensity while doing cardio crap so you "just burn the fat". HIIT Cardio (at least any type of good cardio) requires quite a bit of anoerobic metabolism... meaning glycolysis to produce atp. If there is not ample glycogen in the cell or carbs in the bloodstream then guess where the body will go to get carbs... it will oxidize amino acids and turn them into carbs for energy (and yes this means your muscle tissue).

I know what your all thinking... duh... just do lower intensity well this has been studied as well...

in one study they used 2 groups. One group performed 12 minutes of high intensity interval training (periods of 90% of maximal heart rate between periods of lower heart rate)

group 2 performed 30 minutes of cardio at 75% of maximum heart rate.

Results

group 2 burned more total calories, however group one lost more fat than group one. So what does all that mean????

not only is high intensity cardio more efficient at burning fat... it is better at sparing muscle since it burned less cals but shed more fat. In addition high intensity cardio kept metabolism raised for over 24 hours while the moderate intensity did not raise metabolism for any appreciable amount of time.

So much for the "fat burning" zone

JD- · 02-19-2003, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by str8flexed
So much for the "fat burning" zone

lol i think it is just amazing how many theories and studies regarding health and fitness have been disproven in recent years.... everything from the cholesterol in eggs thing to fat being the major source of fat....

wonder what other highly-accepted fact will be brought down next

**Bignbuff** · 02-19-2003, 06:28 PM

Thanks Layne!

Timbo · 02-19-2003, 09:01 PM

Would you all just listen to the Train that is Layne? C'mon, bruthas!

When you do your cardio hella intense (i.e. HIIT style), you're going to be burning a crapload of calories not only during the session, but more importantly afterwards. And afterwards is when fat oxidation and metabolism really takes hold.

That's right, you crank up the fat burning afterwards to replace all the energy stores you burned up, and to restore homeostasis (i.e. body temperature, catecholamines, hemoglobin, myoglobin, elevated respiration, etc.).

And it doesn't matter if you eat carbs right away either. This will not inhibit the oxidation of fat.

I don't think dextrose/maltodextrin is needed beforehand, especially when dieting. But, this ultimately your decision. You'll never know if you don't try.

pinoy · 02-19-2003, 09:08 PM

so i guess not eating for a hour before HIIT, and dextrose/protein after would be good?!!?

blackpoodle · 02-19-2003, 09:28 PM

So the answer is there is no answer.

Timbo · 02-19-2003, 09:54 PM

The answer is that HIIT should not be performed in a fasted-state.

**str8flexed** · 02-19-2003, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timbo
The answer is that HIIT should not be performed in a fasted-state.

*bangs head on desk*

NO ONE LISTENS TO WHAT WE'RE SAYING!!!!!!!!!

*goes and curls up in bed and cries himself to sleep*

blackpoodle · 02-19-2003, 11:28 PM

I think that I have a better understanding now thanks to everyone`s help.
It wasn`t in vain str8flexed so you can stop banging your head now.
It`s clear that HIIT cardio burns fat over a long period of time by raising the metabolic rate.
Basically HIIT causes energy expenditure & fat utilisation.
The most important point to consider is total energy expenditure.
This is more important than the fuel which is used during HIIT.
The fact that I`m consuming that dextrose & protein pre-HIIT to fuel my HIIT doesn`t affect my fat loss PROVIDED that I`m in a caloric deficit.
Am I on the right track?

Zen_Lifter · 02-19-2003, 11:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by str8flexed
word.

Read E-Dawg's article... www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

cortisol levels are high in the morning anyway... throw in cardio in a fasted state... how much muscle do you want to lose???? b/c this will get the job done for you.

****, Im bulking now, but I think I'm going to implement this into my bulking routine starting next week. (I dont usually do cardio when bulking)

great info timbo and str8

**str8flexed** · 02-20-2003, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blackpoodle
I think that I have a better understanding now thanks to everyone`s help.
It wasn`t in vain str8flexed so you can stop banging your head now.
It`s clear that HIIT cardio burns fat over a long period of time by raising the metabolic rate.
Basically HIIT causes energy expenditure & fat utilisation.
The most important point to consider is total energy expenditure.
This is more important than the fuel which is used during HIIT.
The fact that I`m consuming that dextrose & protein pre-HIIT to fuel my HIIT doesn`t affect my fat loss PROVIDED that I`m in a caloric deficit.
Am I on the right track?

YESSSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!