Clayton South - Should You Drink Milk?

[webmaster]

If you're like most people, you've been raised on cow's milk and probably continue to think that it's a healthy food that's a staple of the bodybuilding diet. This article presents some less than appetizing information regarding liquid milk consumption.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/south109.htm

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[Joka]

YAY!!! Another milk bashing article... PLEASE!!! Spare us!

:: Reaches for a big glass of drugs... ah, i mean Milk ::

[Joka]

Originally Posted by Joka

YAY!!! Another milk bashing article... PLEASE!!! Spare us!

:: Reaches for a big glass of drugs... ah, i mean Milk ::

Actually, i should clarify...

Use of bovine growth hormone is Banned in Australia, New Zealand and Japan, so your point is moot, and for accurate reporting you should really include a disclosure stating such variation in international standards. There are a lot of members on this board whom do not reside in the US...

[danboy]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

i drink more than a gallon a day, WTF i dont want to stop and buy milk protein isolates......they arent as cheap and milk replace water for me....instead of drinking something of no caloric, carb, protein value replace it with milk.....yeah its just an extra 128+ grams of protein a day and 1440 cals a day, and only being a drink to consume with meals. this isnt good news, i wish u didnt write that.

While some parts of this article could be attacked, notably the "Consider This" list (why would people with a lifespan of less than 30 years ever have osteoporosis?), it is overall a highly interesting and well written article that informs the reader about the side effects that methods used to enhance milk production can have on milk. It would be good to know however, how significant the levels of contaminants were in the milk that is contaminated; as it stands, the reader is left thinking, yes it there but in what amounts/how severe is the problem?

I will definitely save a copy of this article. Good job Clayton

[Ifrit]

Pretty much at one time or another they have done studies on everything from dangers of chemicals and hormones in foods to certain dyes for just coloring certain foods and it hasn't ruined anyones world yet. Unless you have gastrointestinal upset or are lactose intolerant then drink up it isn't going to kill you. We are far too paranoid these days about supplements and foods causing problems that are rather insignificant and it is just being plain anal. It's a good article that's not the problem, I just know I'm sick of my clients worried they are going to die just from caffeine lately.

[danboy]

^ agreed, i have no problem digesting milk...it makes me feel good and at night helps me sleep(idk y maybe all in my head i dunno)


i hope the sides arent too serious cause if there was any one thing i owe my bulking progress too(very succsesful bulk, im not even going to bother writing stat differences as they are unbelievable) its the milk, that gallon a day man....can replace gallon of water a day....helps u be hypocalloric way easier and makes consuming that 2-3g of protein per lb of weight easier.

[Joka]

Simple solution... Buy organic milk.

An opposing view furnished by daveb

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modda/11119202.html

[Shotput15]

I don't support this article whatsoever. Sure, there may be contaminants, but there are a whole lot of other foods that may have contaminants as well. In my opinion, milk is a great source of protein, a great source of protein, and heck, it tastes good! I can tell you this much, I will continue drinking a good 3-4 cups of skim milk a day

[Joka]

Originally Posted by Lucu

An opposing view furnished by daveb

http://web1.msue.msu.edu/msue/imp/modda/11119202.html

Excellent find...

Uh, the author should do a little more research on the subject. First, several countries have not passed legislation for use of this hormone in dairy cattle. Several countries were mentioned in a previous reply and you can add Canada as well. Second, cows milk is surpassed in world consumption, in fact it is ranked as the third most consumed milk in the world, not first, so the world is not ending. Thirdly, especially in Canada anyway, any drug residues or comtaminants found in raw milk results in the whole truckload being condemned at the producers expense because they take samples at each farm pickup to use as lab analysis for such testing. They even have a test to determine if the producer has tried to add a little extra water to his/her milk tanks. The dairy industry is one of the the most regulated industries around.

As is the case I usually enjoy the articles on this site. As more and more authors present false statements such as in this article, I lose respect for the author and will likely not take any value in what the author has written about in the past or what he/she will write in the future. If the authors can't get their facts straight I am left wondering about the validity of the authors past(or future) articles. I also have to question the integrity of this site and their choice in contributors.

Natural bodybuilders are always pissed because the general population thinks they are on steriods because they "hear the stories". It would be a mistake for everyone to think that this is the case with ALL dairies according to articles such as this.

[drugzkill]

I love milk....I love the drugs in milk and I hate anyone who bashes milk! Maybe if Clayton drank some milk he would actually have soem size. Have you seen this guy (http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/south.htm), he is the size of my grandmother, yet he still preaches to me about milk!!!

[dharok]

I do not necessarily disagree with the major thrust of the article-- which I interpreted to mean that milk can be a toxic brew which may be harmful to one's health-- but I do have to point out some seriously weak reasoning used by the author to make readers draw the same conclusion. Had the author left these points out of his text, he would have done better IMO.


(1) Bovine milk causes sickness in the majority of the world's population.

First, how is it possible to prove such a claim? Test 50% +1 of the world's population? Second, there are many factors involved with milk related sicknesses in third world countries: e.g. TB, lack of refrigeration, lack of sanitary conditions, etc. There is no possible way that one could conclusively prove scientifically that the milk per se is the major source of sickness even in cases when the sickness is shown to be milk related. . .

(2) Epidemiological data show that calcium deficiency and osteoporosis rates are lower in non-milk consuming countries than in Westernized and industrialized milk-consuming nations.

First, it should be obvious that there is no single reason why osteoporosis is more common in some populations than others: Consumption of carbonated beverages, other dietary factors (e.g. higher consumption of fish and calcium rich vegetables), lifestyle choices (smoking, drinking alcohol, lack of activity, etc.), and even life expectancy (osteoporosis most often attacks older people, if a population on average does not reach that age, then we should expect lower rates of osteoporosis)


(3) Human consumption of cow's milk is a recent development in evolution. Pre-humans and human ancestors did not drink cow's milk. Early fossil evidence shows no signs of osteoporosis.

This is absolutely ridiculous. What was the age expectancy of the average person even 1000 years ago? Around 35 years. . . let's take a fair sample group here. I bet there is little to no difference between 35 year olds today and those of 5000 years ago.

(4) Milk is a source of calcium, but not the best source of absorbable calcium - other foods are better.

who cares? This isn't even a good argument at all. There are other reasons to enjoy milk other than the calcium. Merely because milk isn't the best source doesn't disqualify it from being a source.

(5) As a source of protein, liquid milk is less than ideal - other foods are better.

see comment above . . .

another find daveb

"Milk Composition
The effect of bST on the concentration of milk nutrients is dependent on the nutritional status of the cows before and during bST supplementation. Nutrients including fat, protein, and calcium are generally not affected by bST administration. Fat, however, may vary somewhat in earlier stages of supplementation. With the use of proper feed management practices, milk production increases of about 10% may be expected.
Normal levels of bST in milk, about 10 ppb, are not significantly affected by administration of the hormone to the cow. The modest rise of IGF-I concentration is well within normal variation and at a level below its concentration in human milk.

Human Safety Considerations
Early clinical researchers studying bST were hopeful of its usefulness in treating human dwarfism. However, though the protein could be safely injected into humans, it was not biologically active. Growth hormones are species-specific. Since it is a protein hormone, it is digested by humans into peptides and amino acids like any other protein. In fact, when presented to a cow orally, bST is not active. The cow's digestive system simply recognizes it as dietary protein.
Though the human safety of naturally-occurring bST had been established in the 1950's, many more extensive studies were required by FDA prior to the approval for marketing milk from test cows in 1985. Then, prior to approving the marketing of recombinant bST in the U.S., many other issues, such as animal health and labeling, had to be resolved.

http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/foodsc...standmilk.html

I loved this article. I haven't drunk milk for years because of the raesons he talks about. Its about time that science based articles like this are put on bb.com

Well. I don't drink much milk except on my cereal, but I'm still a fan.

I found the article unbalanced. It only took me two minutes on Google to find what appeared to be equally credible references refutting the article's "scientific" claims. Listing references may be impressive, but just because it's published doesn't mean the conclusions have been accepted by the scientific community. Therefore, consider the source. Not all journals are weighed equally.

I assume a certain level of risk with every food I eat. I'm betting the risk is low in the U.S..

- nutz (too lazy to register on, yet, another message board. Sorry.)

[Clayton South]

Hello everyone:

Thanks so much for the great responses / discussion on this issue.

I'm not going to post much here, because the article states my position on liquid milk, but I will say this: Science is often a conflicted field, and it can be easy to find one study to support a position, while also finding another study to support the opposite conclusion on the same issue.

I investigated the milk issue to my satisfaction, collected data and obtained my data from unbiased sources such as the FDA and various food inspection agencies not aligned with the dairy industry or their partners. This is the responsibility of honest journalists.

Even if you don't agree with the conclusion / thesis of the article, I'm glad that each of you contributed and stimulated the discussion on this issue - as athletes and health enthusiasts we have to keep discussions going in our community to make sure that we are all learning and staying healthy.

So, thanks to you all for being so pro-active on your posts, and lets keep it up!!

The best of health to each of you.

-Clayton South

The best Milk is right from the milk tank on the farm, and make sure you get some cream in with it, best tasting Milk you will ever have.

[TRICK D]

Thanks for the article... you are just trying to give us some information to think about... even if we don't agree, you still gave us a good read.

[Groundhog]

Sounds like another PETA inspired bash against the dairy industry.

[JohnDeere]

Whats all that about? bullONI! I live on a dairy farm, and never has my father injected any type of hormone in any cow. They consume corn, silage (formented grass), fresh lush pasture grass and hay. clean water, and clean bedding. If thay do get mastitus, they get injected with penicilin, and the milk is not put in the tank. Even if small trace amounts of peniciln are detected, there is a hefty $10000 fine. gotta wait at least 2 weeks to milk that cow in with the herd. It must be tested.
I have never seen a cow covered in so much **** as the ones in the picture in the article. Maybe in the US farmers inject them with hormones, but in canada, its all natural. You just cant do that up here. illegal. I must drink 2 liters of whole milk a day and know it has helped me build mass and strength. Yes, store bought milk is different, but in N.S, I don't know any farmer that gives thier cows hormones. Im still drinking lots of milk and don't plan on stopping. and I eat lots of canadian beef too!

[Zim]

I appreciate the article, but I feel the data has been cherry-picked, and not presented fairly.

If you don't like milk, that's the only reason you need to not drink it. But this issue of contaminants is, IMO, blown out of proportion. Most of the contaminants listed will not survive digestion, and if they did, would still not yeild a measureable change in a human subject. There's a reason that most of those things need to be injected.

Futhermore, testing on treated and untreated cows shows there is no significant difference in hormone levels in the milk. The FDA keeps what I consider to be reasonable standards for milk, and they test milk sources for those standards.

Again, I appreciate the article, it gave me something to consider and research. But the evidence here is inferring more from problems with high IGF-1 levels, which you're really not going to get from drinking milk.

Try to get data that is not over 10 years old, get info that is about 2 years at the max, i also live on a farm and you are way off base.

[Joka]

Originally Posted by JohnDeere

Whats all that about? bullONI! I live on a dairy farm, and never has my father injected any type of hormone in any cow. They consume corn, silage (formented grass), fresh lush pasture grass and hay. clean water, and clean bedding. If thay do get mastitus, they get injected with penicilin, and the milk is not put in the tank. Even if small trace amounts of peniciln are detected, there is a hefty $10000 fine. gotta wait at least 2 weeks to milk that cow in with the herd. It must be tested.
I have never seen a cow covered in so much **** as the ones in the picture in the article. Maybe in the US farmers inject them with hormones, but in canada, its all natural. You just cant do that up here. illegal. I must drink 2 liters of whole milk a day and know it has helped me build mass and strength. Yes, store bought milk is different, but in N.S, I don't know any farmer that gives thier cows hormones. Im still drinking lots of milk and don't plan on stopping. and I eat lots of canadian beef too!

Like Australia, New Zealand and Japan, it is illegal in Canada for Dairy farmers to use bovine Growth Hormone... Hence your observation.

Originally Posted by Zim

I appreciate the article, but I feel the data has been cherry-picked, and not presented fairly.

If you don't like milk, that's the only reason you need to not drink it. But this issue of contaminants is, IMO, blown out of proportion. Most of the contaminants listed will not survive digestion, and if they did, would still not yeild a measureable change in a human subject. There's a reason that most of those things need to be injected.

Futhermore, testing on treated and untreated cows shows there is no significant difference in hormone levels in the milk. The FDA keeps what I consider to be reasonable standards for milk, and they test milk sources for those standards.

Again, I appreciate the article, it gave me something to consider and research. But the evidence here is inferring more from problems with high IGF-1 levels, which you're really not going to get from drinking milk.

Indeed, what you say supports the links I have posted previously in this thread. Milk seems to be quite safe.

What about in the UK? , do they use bovine hormones? ive been trying to find out but cant find any info about it.

[Joe00044]

This is total bull****. The hormone you speak of is just a very tiny protein that barely even makes it to the milk synthesizing cells, much less the milk. Also, any milk that contains antibiotics is dumped at the dairy, and if it is shipped, the farm is fined.

[Dallas68]

hmmm you know what i dont care if they do because its such a minimal amount anyway... milk has made me grow and keeps me doing so and i know my milk is not "infected" with any hormones since its guaranteed and stuff RbST or whatever...Reside in South Africa...just drink milk its good for you...plus where else do you get your calcium from>??

[perldog007]

Originally Posted by Dallas68

hmmm you know what i dont care if they do because its such a minimal amount anyway... milk has made me grow and keeps me doing so and i know my milk is not "infected" with any hormones since its guaranteed and stuff RbST or whatever...Reside in South Africa...just drink milk its good for you...plus where else do you get your calcium from>??

I am with you on 99% of that. I eat greens for my calcium because that is where you find most of it in human usable form. I avoided milk for years, and have just recently added it into my diet. I like it, but don't get excessive with it. WTF, I use a little soy here and there too. Here in U.S. I think we are wise to get organic when we can and not trust too much of any advertising.

I think some dairy can be usefull especially for those of us trying to drop poundage of the fat variety.


Clayton is not a mass monster. On the other hand, Mike Mahler is a vegan and while not huge, I wouldn't biotch slap him before 0900 on a dare, and not after either!, not even for cash.

S.A. interesting, I had you pegged as a Z-lander... oh well, I haven't been outside the CONUS since I had hair. (circa 1981)