Mark Tallon - The Truth About Creatine Stability!

[webmaster]

Is there such a thing as pH stable creatine formulas? Here we examine the REAL evidence behind issues causing waves in the sports nutrition industry.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/tallon8.htm

HOW TO REVIEW: Post Your Review Of This Article - CLICK ON POST REPLY BELOW! You do NOT need to be a registered member to post a reply in this section!

Good article.

Summary: Creatine is mighty stable. Also is quickly absorbed and is retained well.

[agony21]

WTF!? This is really starting to piss me off... Just when you think you understand, someone comes along and tells you that your way of thinking is wrong they have all lied to you... If this is true, then why are so many people reporting better gains due to CEE, and KreAlkalyn type products?

Are we really being lied to about a staple supplement like creatine?

[Clayton South]

Mark,

This is a GREAT article, and I'm glad that you wrote it. Thanks very much for this. I KNOW that it's going to help a lot of people. Amazing work.

-Clayton South

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by agony21

WTF!? This is really starting to piss me off... Just when you think you understand, someone comes along and tells you that your way of thinking is wrong they have all lied to you... If this is true, then why are so many people reporting better gains due to CEE, and KreAlkalyn type products?

Are we really being lied to about a staple supplement like creatine?

hell yes companies lie to you.

and the reason these people report better gains is due to the placebo effect. Same reason most people think glutamine works wonders.

This article is should be archived, extremely well presented. Great job. Not to mention my freakin' picture is in it

-Layne

[agony21]

Str8flexed,

Just wanted to say this upfront, I have alot of respect for you and your posts here on BB.com, they are always informative and helpful, and you seem to be very knowledgable and respectful individual.. That being said:

I realize most companies lie to you... Thats not the point I was attempting to make though i can see how it came across that way... I am simply frustrated... As a supplement user, I try to be the most knowledgable I can be about what I am taking... So I do the research, I read studies (when available), Read Log's, user reviews etc to find out what works, and what doesnt... From all the anecdotal reports of CEE being more efficient then Creatine Mono, i find it hard to believe that this is only Placebo... I am not saying that it is impossible ofcourse, just unlikely... Now after this article claiming that everything many people knew (or thought they knew) to be the shortcommings of Creatine Mono are merely myths... I find myself in a situation where I dont know whom to believe... I am not discrediting Mark Tallon at all, but I have no reason to believe he is any more reputable a source then anyother poster or author on BB.com who would say otherwise... I don't know who to listen to, or where to get a straight answer... Each side has well known and respected advocates, when all i want is the bottom line...

Ya know?

[str8flexed]

I think the article was moreso addressing the kre-alkalyn products rather than CEE products.

however, creatine monohydrate saturates the muscle cell 100% and you simply cannot get better than 100%, so I fail to see how CEE could improve gains over monohydrate.

[lucubration.]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

I think the article was moreso addressing the kre-alkalyn products rather than CEE products.
.

just to be clear....kre-alkalyn is plain old creatine right?

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by lucubration.

just to be clear....kre-alkalyn is plain old creatine right?

no it's creatine in some kind of "special" buffer thing.

[BringnIt]

Layne, what about people who don't respond to monohydrate, etc.? Couldn't CEE be better for some people and the same as mono. for others? Or no?

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by BringnIt

Layne, what about people who don't respond to monohydrate, etc.? Couldn't CEE be better for some people and the same as mono. for others? Or no?

the only area in which one could have superiority over the other would be absorption in the small intestine, not cellular uptake. But to my knowledge there are no documented studies showing one to be more effective than the other in absorption

-Layne

[OxygeniX]

Originally Posted by agony21

Str8flexed,

Just wanted to say this upfront, I have alot of respect for you and your posts here on BB.com, they are always informative and helpful, and you seem to be very knowledgable and respectful individual.. That being said:

I realize most companies lie to you... Thats not the point I was attempting to make though i can see how it came across that way... I am simply frustrated... As a supplement user, I try to be the most knowledgable I can be about what I am taking... So I do the research, I read studies (when available), Read Log's, user reviews etc to find out what works, and what doesnt... From all the anecdotal reports of CEE being more efficient then Creatine Mono, i find it hard to believe that this is only Placebo... I am not saying that it is impossible ofcourse, just unlikely... Now after this article claiming that everything many people knew (or thought they knew) to be the shortcommings of Creatine Mono are merely myths... I find myself in a situation where I dont know whom to believe... I am not discrediting Mark Tallon at all, but I have no reason to believe he is any more reputable a source then anyother poster or author on BB.com who would say otherwise... I don't know who to listen to, or where to get a straight answer... Each side has well known and respected advocates, when all i want is the bottom line...

Ya know?

Your totally correct there is no reason to rely on my personal opinion thats why I wrote this article "based on only the scientific facts we have on creatine and its stability in fluids and pH's at this time". By using the peer reviewed data you can draw the conclusions yourself, and to this end I have included all references included in the article (all searchable on pubmed). As you will see what I have wrote is only based on the facts. If anyone else can show you any published data (not from their web site, magazine or similar) to disprove what I have said I would be very interested to see it!

hope this article provides a good source of info for you!

[OxygeniX]

Thanks for the great comments guys!

[agony21]

Originally Posted by OxygeniX

Thanks for the great comments guys!

I have a couple more questions for you if you dont mind...

1) Through the research that you have done, how does Creatine Monohydrate solubility play into the absorption process... Meaning that Creatine sitting in the bottom of a glass of water undissolved, how much of that will ever make it to the muscle cell (or any cell in general)?

2) What about creatine delivery systems, are products like Phosphagen HP really more efficient at delivering creatine to the muscle cells then say adding monohydrate to a protein shake or a glass of water ( i realize these are two very different scenarios)...

3) Is there anyway for you to know the level of creatine saturation your muscles are at? I ask this because I have never done a loading phase of creatine, but I have been using the supplement for years... Would you expect say a moderate dosing scheme of 5 grams pre and post workout would effectively saturate the muscle cells to an optimal level, or would a loading phase at this stage of the game be beneficial?

The reason why I am asking these questions is because these myths you have broken are so prevalent, that it begs the question what other things about creatine are misunderstood...

Thank you for your time Mark..

[OxygeniX]

Originally Posted by agony21

I have a couple more questions for you if you dont mind...

1) Through the research that you have done, how does Creatine Monohydrate solubility play into the absorption process... Meaning that Creatine sitting in the bottom of a glass of water undissolved, how much of that will ever make it to the muscle cell (or any cell in general)?

2) What about creatine delivery systems, are products like Phosphagen HP really more efficient at delivering creatine to the muscle cells then say adding monohydrate to a protein shake or a glass of water ( i realize these are two very different scenarios)...

3) Is there anyway for you to know the level of creatine saturation your muscles are at? I ask this because I have never done a loading phase of creatine, but I have been using the supplement for years... Would you expect say a moderate dosing scheme of 5 grams pre and post workout would effectively saturate the muscle cells to an optimal level, or would a loading phase at this stage of the game be beneficial?

The reason why I am asking these questions is because these myths you have broken are so prevalent, that it begs the question what other things about creatine are misunderstood...

Thank you for your time Mark..

OK SOME ANSWERS:-

1. Is there anyway for you to know the level of creatine saturation your muscles are at?

Yes biopsy and possibly with NIR also with NMR (not total quantity but change)


2. Would you expect say a moderate dosing scheme of 5 grams pre and post workout would effectively saturate the muscle cells to an optimal level, or would a loading phase at this stage of the game be beneficial?

No five grams is not enough see studies by Van loon and others show a decreased retention post 30 days. I am working on a form of creatine that can overcome this at present get back to you in the future!

3. What about creatine delivery systems, are products like Phosphagen HP really more efficient at delivering creatine to the muscle cells then say adding monohydrate to a protein shake or a glass of water ( i realize these are two very different scenarios)...

Only as regards a possible insulin response (from the protein or carb sources) effecting uptake see early Greenhaff papers but more recent data suggests creatine transport is not insulin mediated but more to do with sodium!

4. Through the research that you have done, how does Creatine Monohydrate solubility play into the absorption process... Meaning that Creatine sitting in the bottom of a glass of water undissolved, how much of that will ever make it to the muscle cell (or any cell in general)?

Yes there are some issues regarding creatine’s poor solubility or High lipophilicity has been studied by Ganguly et al. 2003 and also Budavari et al. 1989. This was the reason the for the creatine citrates. For a recap solubility is the amount (g) of compound (in this case creatine) that can be absorbed in X mls of water. For creatine monohydrate this is about 12 – 15g per 1000mls (ltr) at a temperature of say 15oc which is something you could drink. To get around this we could do a variety of things including complexation with solubilizing agents such as cyclodextrins or micronization. The rationale behind these maybe effective approaches to enhancing absorption across the gut are directly linked to creatines low water solubility meaning that its solubility/particle size may cleared creatine by ciliary activity before they can dissolve and be absorbed in the gut, leading to less absorption into mucosal tissues.

So the take home increased solubility greater availability to the gut for uptake. There are other methods to further enhance creatine absorption but I am currently looking into patent aspects of this.

hope this helps

best Mark

[lucubration.]

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. Would you expect say a moderate dosing scheme of 5 grams pre and post workout would effectively saturate the muscle cells to an optimal level, or would a loading phase at this stage of the game be beneficial?

No five grams is not enough see studies by Van loon and other shown a decreased retention post 30 days. I am working on a form of creatine that can overcome this at present get back to you in the future!

What in your opinion or even a WAG would be an optimal amount/procedure for administration?

[Vinnie Bobarino]

Originally Posted by lucubration.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



What in your opinion or even a WAG would be an optimal amount/procedure for administration?

Good Article. On top of this, what would your recommend taking with creatine to enhance performance, recovery, and growth.

[agony21]

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Mark, it is very much appreciated.

One final question:

You mentioned studies by Van Loon which showed a decreased retention of creatine after 30 days... I realize you are doing work on patenting a product to circumvent this, but in the meantime what would be a good daily intake of creatine monohydrate to keep creatine at optimal levels?

[PowerSwede]

Thank you, i have been replying to so many regarding these issues, from now on i'll just refer them to your article.

Kre-Alkalyn is what is responsible for this information, the company behind it and at least one company that sells it are lying through their teeth trying to get suckers to buy their faulty information regarding creatine monohydrate.

I don't mind the new products coming out trying to live on their products but when they spend more time lying about their competitors products than they do claiming benefits for their own it makes me wonder... Do they really believe in their own product?

Regarding user reports and so on, creatine serum had a 75% satisfied customer base and there was no active ingredient in it.

[wanttobearnold]

Originally Posted by agony21

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Mark, it is very much appreciated.

One final question:

You mentioned studies by Van Loon which showed a decreased retention of creatine after 30 days... I realize you are doing work on patenting a product to circumvent this, but in the meantime what would be a good daily intake of creatine monohydrate to keep creatine at optimal levels?

I don't know what he might say, but I might suggest checking this article by author l rea:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/author22.htm

He gives some good information about when to take creatine and also what the best creatine "homebrew" as he calls it, is. Now obviously, when you look at it there might a few things which are not feasible. But I have used some of his reccomendations and find that taking creatine with whey, dextrose or maltodextrin and salt has helped a lot, especially with taking it at the three times he recommends, and with the amount of creatine he recommends, which only works out to 6-7g per day.

[pu12en12g]

It's my understanding that Patrick Arnold seemed to think that CEE offered some benefit over and above Creatine Mono. Anyone have the exact quote ?

Originally Posted by str8flexed

the reason these people report better gains is due to the placebo effect.

Layne,

What are your thoughts about a possible enhanced osmotic effect of CEE (vs. creatine mono).

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

It's my understanding that Patrick Arnold seemed to think that CEE offered some benefit over and above Creatine Mono. Anyone have the exact quote ?



Layne,

What are your thoughts about a possible enhanced osmotic effect of CEE (vs. creatine mono).

all people have as of now is theory, and not very well founded theory. Aparantly CEE causes a bigger spike in blood creatine levels but whether or not this has any benefit as far as faster saturation or higher saturation levels... I highly doubt it.

-Layne

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

saturation or higher saturation levels

What if we think outside the box for a little bit. What (besides saturation levels or placebo) would explain why plain CEE "seems" to work better. For example, people who don't even care about "cell volumization" are reporting enhanced cell volumization (vs. creatine mono).

I'm just wondering if it might not even be a creatine issue at all.

[OxygeniX]

Originally Posted by agony21

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Mark, it is very much appreciated.

One final question:

You mentioned studies by Van Loon which showed a decreased retention of creatine after 30 days... I realize you are doing work on patenting a product to circumvent this, but in the meantime what would be a good daily intake of creatine monohydrate to keep creatine at optimal levels?

The best I can suggest is to maintain your 5g/d dose. This will aviod DIETARY deficiency but performance effects will be primarily from your initial loading effect. Muscle growth etc we dont know what change you need from baseline regarding muscle creatine concentration to inflence Myogenic growth factors or cellular swelling signals...

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

What if we think outside the box for a little bit. What (besides saturation levels or placebo) would explain why plain CEE "seems" to work better. For example, people who don't even care about "cell volumization" are reporting enhanced cell volumization (vs. creatine mono).

I'm just wondering if it might not even be a creatine issue at all.

only thing i can think of is that esters are usually quite soluble & hydrophillic, perhaps it is pulling in more water than normal creatine monohdrate

[lucubration.]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

only thing i can think of is that esters are usually quite soluble & hydrophillic, perhaps it is pulling in more water than normal creatine monohdrate

Regarding strength and endurance alone, is creatine's ability to offer an increased amount of ATP for use more significant than the strength gains resulting from more fully hydrating the muscle?

Or am I off base? Just trying to understand what's going on...

[OxygeniX]

Originally Posted by str8flexed

only thing i can think of is that esters are usually quite soluble & hydrophillic, perhaps it is pulling in more water than normal creatine monohdrate

What about the esters been taken up into the muscle and mitrochondrial cell membranes? For examples you could increase the content of saturated fat in the diet and for anyone exposed to ROS insult from daily training this maybe biochemically advantageous.

The rationale behind this is that changing muscle membrane composition to greater ratio of Saturated fats (more resistable to lipoperoxidase) may protect muscle cell membranes more efficiently. So less ROS based tissue damage etc etc

My only doubt behind this theory is the relativly small amount (g) of EE take when you use CEE. However, the creatine may have some direct effect on where it is distributed in the muscle. It really come down to where the C and the EE break i.e. the gut ? in the muscle?

[brodus]

Excellent article and followup!

I think there's something else going on with CEE, but I agree that the PH-lie told by the Kre-Alk. people goes directly against my personal experience.

Thanks for collecting and summarizing such great research!

Does this mean that creatine monohydrate is bad?? Or what exactly, i dont speak english as a first language and I did not understand anything?

[str8flexed]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Does this mean that creatine monohydrate is bad?? Or what exactly, i dont speak english as a first language and I did not understand anything?

no, it means creatine monohydrate is fine