Clayton South - Why Chiropractic Is Critical To Your Success!

[webmaster]

In this eye-opening and revealing interview, Dr. Lee tells us why chiropractic is critical to athletic success and a long and healthy life.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/south86.htm

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[daoman]

There wasn't any mention of the dangers of neck manipulation in chiro that you hear so much about.

[Clayton South]

You are right.

The reason for this is because those incidences are rare, and are often over represented in media coverage. The doctor and I during interview discussed neck manipulation, and the statistical data shows that incidencies resulting from neck manipulation are rare.

What did you think of the article? Was it helpfull to you?

-Clayton South
www.bodybuilding.com

[Flee Priest]

Originally posted by Clayton South
You are right.

The reason for this is because those incidences are rare, and are often over represented in media coverage. The doctor and I during interview discussed neck manipulation, and the statistical data shows that incidencies resulting from neck manipulation are rare.

What did you think of the article? Was it helpfull to you?

-Clayton South
www.bodybuilding.com

..and exactly what does "rare" mean? You say you've checked statistical data, whats the numbers??

If its so rare, how come my friends bass player cant play bass anymore because a chiropractor made his hand go numb after some bonehead neck maneuver? How come my brothers neck is still screwed after some tard chiro tried to unscrew his head?...grrrrrr phuking asstards

If I ever meet a chiropractor at a party I'll personally manipulate his neck...with a chair.

http://www.quackwatch.org/01Quackery...ics/chiro.html

[Clayton South]

If you or anyone you know has a grievance against a medical practitioner you have legal recourse. In any event, your friends medical issues are none of my business.

I'd tell your friend to get an evaluation to determine the exact cause of his condition - causation is more complex than you might think.

In either case your anger is misdirected. I'm not a chiropractor - I'm a writer who did an interview and I will confine my comments and public discussion to the content of the interview.

Hope it was helpfull to you.

-Clayton South
www.bodybuilding.com

[Flee Priest]

Anger wasnt directed at you or your article, it was directed at chiropractors in general. I just feel I must try and make people think twice before they let someone manipulate their neck.

The question about the statistical data was directed at you tho, but I guess its searchable somewhere on the internet...people should make informed choices. How small a risk is not worth mentioning? I have no idea.

[Clayton South]

Flee:

I agree absolutley. People should make informed health choices - too many people are injured or die every year due to malpractice and bieng given incorrect medications, etc.

Prior to having chiropractic treatment I, too, investigated neck manipulations because of similar concerns.

To get the statistics I would recommend writing to the national association of chiropractors. If you fear that the data provided is in some way manipulated, you can always as them for the sources of their data. I'm sure that if they have nothing to hide they will readily provide you the information you seek.

But its good to be a health advocate and to look out for the interest of others. Keep up the good work!

-Clayton South
www.bodybuilding.com

[Joka]

Originally posted by Flee Priest
Anger wasnt directed at you or your article, it was directed at chiropractors in general. I just feel I must try and make people think twice before they let someone manipulate their neck.

The question about the statistical data was directed at you tho, but I guess its searchable somewhere on the internet...people should make informed choices. How small a risk is not worth mentioning? I have no idea.

The most commonly quoted statistic is 1 in 5.85million, which was found by a Canadian study within the last 5 years...

Chiropractic is an exceptionally safe profession and modality of healthcare for musculoskeletal injuries, dysfunction.

Essentially a very solid benchmark and yard stick for measuring the safety of chiropractic is to review the current insurance premiums of a f/t chiropractor. ~ $3000/year, which is quite minute comparatively to what some allopathic specialties are being slugged.

Flee Preist, i can understand your frustrations, but they are some what misplaced. Mal-practice occurs in every modality of healthcare, and to call all chiropractors "asstards" is a generalised blanket statement, based on your anecdotal recounts. (i am not attacking you, please dont interpret what i am saying as such)

I am not a chiropractor, neither a chiropractic student, so i do not have an agenda in this discussion, i am just pointing out some rational thoughts...

Take care.

[Flee Priest]

I find those numbers hard to believe, because I live in Norway, a country with a population smaller than 5,85 million..."cough"...so..you do the math..About the "asstard incident" I'd say throwing out a randomly chosen/(made up?) slandering word was certainly the short version of my grudge against chiropractic in general, but let me just say its not only based on the 2 incidents I mentioned. I believed for many years that chiropractic was legit, and that made me all the more disappointed when I learned more about it and the whole philosophy behind it. Instead of going into great detail about my disagreements with the chiropractic philosophy and examples from interviews I have seen with chiros displaying an almost new age like attitude towards their profession and a weak reasoning as to why people get ill and why their treatment should help, I just supplied a link that seemed critical to the whole thing to help people make up their own mind if they care to investigate. The placebo effect is powerful, I've experienced it myself, and I believe the chiropractors make most of their money from a demography that has a lot more money than physical health issues...but thats my opinion, theres no point for us in striving for some kind of agreement on this subject, unless its about agreeing to disagree. People can see that some are for and some are against, use the WWW to gather enough info for them to make up their own mind, and then do exactly as they please.

[Joka]

Originally posted by Flee Priest
I find those numbers hard to believe, because I live in Norway, a country with a population smaller than 5,85 million..."cough"...so..you do the math..About the "asstard incident" I'd say throwing out a randomly chosen/(made up?) slandering word was certainly the short version of my grudge against chiropractic in general, but let me just say its not only based on the 2 incidents I mentioned. I believed for many years that chiropractic was legit, and that made me all the more disappointed when I learned more about it and the whole philosophy behind it. Instead of going into great detail about my disagreements with the chiropractic philosophy and examples from interviews I have seen with chiros displaying an almost new age like attitude towards their profession and a weak reasoning as to why people get ill and why their treatment should help, I just supplied a link that seemed critical to the whole thing to help people make up their own mind if they care to investigate. The placebo effect is powerful, I've experienced it myself, and I believe the chiropractors make most of their money from a demography that has a lot more money than physical health issues...but thats my opinion, theres no point for us in striving for some kind of agreement on this subject, unless its about agreeing to disagree. People can see that some are for and some are against, use the WWW to gather enough info for them to make up their own mind, and then do exactly as they please.

OK, i am assuming you have very limited knowledge of statistics... 1 in 5.85million is a ratio, it does not mean 5.85 million people were involved in the study i mentioned. For instance they did not perform 5.85 million neck manipulations and on the 5.85millionth manipulation, the patient suffered an adverse reaction.

As for quackwatch.com... Well, there isn't really much to say about that source. Perhaps you should examine the history and current prejudice of the authors of that site, you will find their own history and professional expertise highly scrupulous and not without a great deal of controversy.

Essentially, i have found a number of other studies indicating that cervical incidence occurs 1 in 1.2million upper cervical manipulations, this study dates to August 97' volume 19, issue 6 of the 'Journal Of Manipulative and Physiological Therapeutics'...

The common trend here is 'incidence of cervical manipulation is exceedingly low.

Another study performed in October 95' and published in the same journal as mentioned above indicates cervical manipulative therapy to be greater than 700 times more safe than using NSAIDs (i.e. non-steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs), such as ibuprofin, a common headache tablet sold over the counter. Perhaps you should keep that in mind next time you are popping a headache pill for a headache, or similar pain.

These are facts published in peer-reviewed journals of manipulative therapy, which is a lot more than i can say for quackwatch.com (give me a break, please)...

[Joka]

Haldeman S, Carey P, Townsend M, Papadopoulos C. Clinical perceptions of the risk of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation the effect of referral bias. Department of Neurology, University of California, 101 City Drive, 92868, Orange, CA, USA. 2002 Sep-Oct;2(5):334-42

BACKGROUND CONTEXT: The growing recognition of cervical manipulation as a treatment of neck pain and cervicogenic headaches has lead to increased interest in potential complications that may result from this treatment approach. Recent surveys have reported that many neurologists will encounter cases of vertebral artery dissection that occur at various times after cervical manipulation, whereas most practitioners of spinal manipulation are of the opinion that these events are extremely rare. We asked the question whether these differences in perception could be explained in part by referral or selection bias.PURPOSE: To assess the effect of referral bias on the differences in perceived incidence of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation between neurologists and chiropractors in Canada.

STUDY DESIGN:This study was a retrospective review of cases where neurological symptoms consistent with cerebrovascular ischemia were reported by chiropractors in Canada.METHODS: An analysis of data from a chiropractic malpractice insurance carrier (Canadian Chiropractic Protective Association [CCPA]) and results of a survey of chiropractors was performed to determine the likelihood that a vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation would be reported to practicing chiropractors. This was compared with the likelihood that a neurologist would be made aware of such a complication.RESULTS: For the 10-year period 1988 to 1997, there were 23 cases of vertebral artery dissection after cervical manipulation reported to the CCPA that represents 85% of practicing chiropractors in Canada. Based on the survey, an estimated 134,466,765 cervical manipulations were performed during this 10-year period. This gave a calculated rate of vertebral artery dissection after manipulation of 1:5,846,381 cervical manipulations. Based on the number of practicing chiropractors and neurologists during the period of this study, 1 of every 48 chiropractors and one of every two neurologists would have been made aware of a vascular complication from cervical manipulation that was reported to the CCPA during their practice lifetime.

CONCLUSIONS: The perceived risk after cervical manipulation by chiropractors and neurologists is related to the probability that a practitioner will be made aware of such an incident. The difference in the number of chiropractors (approximately 3,840 in 1997) and neurologists (approximately 4,000 in 1997) in active practice and the fact that each patient who has a stroke after manipulation will likely be seen by only one chiropractor but by three or more neurologists partly explains the difference in experience and the perception of risk of these two professions. This selection or referral bias is important in shaping the clinical opinions of the various disciplines and distorts discussion on the true incidence of these complications of cervical manipulation. The nature of this study, however, describes the likelihood that a clinician will be made aware of such an event and cannot be interpreted as describing the actual risk of stroke after manipulation.

As per available from the Canadian Chiropractic Association

[Flee Priest]

Originally posted by Joka
OK, i am assuming you have very limited knowledge of statistics... 1 in 5.85million is a ratio, it does not mean 5.85 million people were involved in the study i mentioned. For instance they did not perform 5.85 million neck manipulations and on the 5.85millionth manipulation, the patient suffered an adverse reaction.

Thats not assuming I know nothing about statistics, thats assuming I'm stupid. Which is wrong, and kind of offensive, but it might come in handy I guess if you'd like people to dig out information for you...and this study you dug out is about extremely adverse reactions like stroke, and even though it "cannot be interpreted as describing the actual risk of stroke after manipulation" as it says, the main point is that I wasnt talking about the odds of merely surviving an encounter with a chiropractor. Unless he's a chiropractor working for Al Qaeda, I'd say the odds for suvival are fairly good. Chronic neck pain or a numb left hand however, is more than bad enough for me, as it can result in a lack of ability to work and hence the ability to take care of yourself financially. Frankly, any worsening of my general condition is bad enough for me. Do statistics on these less lethal but still higly negative reactions even exist?

A risk should be accepted if the benefits are great enough, and obviously my view is that the risk toleration towards this sort of treatment should be extremely low due to my impression that its basically bogus along the lines of healing and homeopathy. The difference is that healing and homeopathy is about as dangerous as astrology. You're highly at risk, but only at wasting your time...

"Another study performed in October 95' and published in the same journal as mentioned above indicates cervical manipulative therapy to be greater than 700 times more safe than using NSAIDs (i.e. non-steroidal Anti-inflammatory Drugs), such as ibuprofin, a common headache tablet sold over the counter. Perhaps you should keep that in mind next time you are popping a headache pill for a headache, or similar pain."

This is another debate altogether. Personally I havent popped a single painkiller or sleeping pill in over a decade and probaly never will in the future. IMO its good for nothing besides side effects. I'll stick to my vitamin pills thank you...

[elce]

It's good to have lots of points of view on this great website, and here's mine. It's always a bad sign when a physical treatment claims 1) it cures everything, 2)everybody needs it, 3)the treatment never stops, 4)conventional medicine is hopelessly inept, and 5)the human body can be brought to some kind of perfect functioning. Chiropractors always claim lots of education, when the actual amount of "medical" information they get is very small- check out the prerequisites and syllabus of any chiropractic college. The human body is an enormously complex system intimately connected to an enormously complex brain, neither of which are fully understood. No one treatment can claim to have all the answers. Chiropractic claims that everybody needs it; on one hand they ask us to admire the natural posture of children and on the other they want to start "manipulating" them right away! They claim that our ills result from unnatural living yet the very natural processes (like being born and walking) they admire are also claimed to do irreparable harm. Chiropractic treatment says it needs to be ongoing, but if they're so good at fixing what ails us, why don't they just fix it and let clients go on with living in their new perfect state? Practices which claim the ineptitude of "western" medicine ignore its immense success. People survive childhood more often, live longer, grow bigger stronger and faster, suffer fewer ills, and have access to better and cheaper diets than ever before. All of these are due to "western" science. There is no state of perfect functioning for the human body, no edenic state of innocence from which it has fallen. It is in a continual state of change. Without stress and recovery from it we wouldn't be living at all. Imperfection is natural and the path to improvement. Concluding questions about chiropractic: it claims to be old and well established, but when did it start? What other things (phrenology, for example) did its founder believe in and what research and testing did he do? What proper experiments have been done on chiropractic treatment? Why is chiropractic rhetoric so similar to religious rhetoric?

[Joka]

Originally posted by elce
It's good to have lots of points of view on this great website, and here's mine. It's always a bad sign when a physical treatment claims 1) it cures everything, 2)everybody needs it, 3)the treatment never stops, 4)conventional medicine is hopelessly inept, and 5)the human body can be brought to some kind of perfect functioning. Chiropractors always claim lots of education, when the actual amount of "medical" information they get is very small- check out the prerequisites and syllabus of any chiropractic college. The human body is an enormously complex system intimately connected to an enormously complex brain, neither of which are fully understood. No one treatment can claim to have all the answers. Chiropractic claims that everybody needs it; on one hand they ask us to admire the natural posture of children and on the other they want to start "manipulating" them right away! They claim that our ills result from unnatural living yet the very natural processes (like being born and walking) they admire are also claimed to do irreparable harm. Chiropractic treatment says it needs to be ongoing, but if they're so good at fixing what ails us, why don't they just fix it and let clients go on with living in their new perfect state? Practices which claim the ineptitude of "western" medicine ignore its immense success. People survive childhood more often, live longer, grow bigger stronger and faster, suffer fewer ills, and have access to better and cheaper diets than ever before. All of these are due to "western" science. There is no state of perfect functioning for the human body, no edenic state of innocence from which it has fallen. It is in a continual state of change. Without stress and recovery from it we wouldn't be living at all. Imperfection is natural and the path to improvement. Concluding questions about chiropractic: it claims to be old and well established, but when did it start? What other things (phrenology, for example) did its founder believe in and what research and testing did he do? What proper experiments have been done on chiropractic treatment? Why is chiropractic rhetoric so similar to religious rhetoric?

All very valid points, and i am not trying to defend that. As i mentioned, i am neither a chiropractor, or chiropractic student. I have no vested interest in the profession. I do however see it for what it is worth in terms of treatment in Musculoskeletal conditions, of which there is a fairly significant amount of well documented studies.

You have painted a very generalised view of the profession, which is somewhat dogmatic in itself and in reality, is simply not true- for the majority of chiropractors. As for the % whom do practice under the misleading, and somewhat dangerous paradigm you have outlined, it is a real shame because it puts a horrible tarnish on the entire profession, and is therefore verily focused on.

Allopathic medicine and chiropractic work together in many circumstances, and when they do, the patient will only ever benefit. Chiro and med are not two opposing teams playing against each other, but together in a lot of instances. The more working together that occurs, the better for all.

Sorry, i have little time to give a more detailed or suscinct response.

Take care.

My view....The antipathy that the medical profession has for the chiropractic community is 90% entirely uncalled for. Sure, there are quacks, as in any field, indeed maybe moreso than for "The Doctors" but bottom line...Chiropractic treatments can and do work for many many people when doctors cannot help them.

Good interview Clayton.

[Clayton South]

Lucobration:

Thanks!

-Clayton South
www.bodybuilding.com
clayton@bodybuilding.com