Bob Cicherillo - Slow Cardio: Great Technique Or Bad Advice?

[webmaster]

There have been many questions asked online and PM to me lately as the competition season has crept upon us. One of the more frequently asked questions is what kind of cardio is the best for getting ripped?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/bobchic3.htm

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[Sher 2.DIE.4]

Originally posted by Dorian
I think the article was interesting but ..... not true.
It may work for him, but in real life it is different.
If I took a pharmacy with me everywhere I went then maybe it would work.
I also do not get the idea that the body will use carbs during high intensity and fat during low intensity. This is BS>
First oiff the body will deplete the carb stores and then turn to the fat stores.
The only way the body will automaticly use fat stores at low intensity is by training the bodyto do that and that would be using some form of Keto diet.
Then this would allow the body to use primarily fats for a fuel source. But since most people do not do a keto, then it wouls be safe to say that carbs will be the main depletion source prior to using anything else. As for proteins being used for fuel, it could happen if you starved your self and ate very little. The real way to lose alot of muscle is to go into starvation.
I have used slow cardio a few times as a experiment to see if it worked better than high intensity and have found it did not.
Do you have references for this slow cardio to prove through actual scientific testing, to prove it works?
If indeed what you are saying is true, then it wqould be possible for a couch potatoe to lose fat just by performing slow cardio a few times per week. I don't buy this.

bump

bad article

[30cm]

BOB always writes great articles... and BOB; if youre reading this... BIG compliments... keep educating us!

[ShaneG85]

I agree with this completely. That's partly why you see football players come into the season looking good and come out looking softer and weighing less.

Shane

[noeyedea]

great tips, i have been wondering which type of cardio is better for keeping the hard earned muscle mass and burning the fat away, this article pretty much clarified everything.

[powerman2000]

I guess I'm going to have to be the voice of sanity hear. That article is BAD advice!!! I'm a natural bodybuilder and I've been in the iron game for more than 20 years. After doing the slow cardio for years I've switched to high intensity and I've seen much better results. I haven't lost an ounce of muscle. I can burn twice the amount of calories in half the time and I continue to burn fat/calories throughout the day because I've jacked up my metabolism so high that it just keeps going all day. Even his logic is bad. Let me ask you one question. At the end of his article he states that the slow cardio works for all the pros. Do you then think you should also follow the same weightlifting routines that the pros do? Think about it! If you are a natural lifter then there is very little you should do in the gym that is the same as a pro. Its true, you will burn a higher % of calories from fat at a low intensity, but you are doing little to crank up the flames of your bodies metabolism, which is much more important than being in the "fat burning zone". You also must be very careful with your nutritional support when you do HIIT cardio, but when done correctly is works great! I even do my hiit cardio 1st am on an empty stomach and I still don't lose muscle and believe me I watch myself in the mirror very carefully. Going back for a second, let me clarify that I actually drink a large dose of glutamine before I do my cardio in the am, but I put it in water and ingest nothing else before hand. So, shame on you Bob for writing such a bad article.

[Pro Bob Chick]

Get yourself ready for a show with your technique, THEN get back to me on if you think it worked or not.....

You proved EXACTLY what I was trying to point out in your post....thank you!

[Tete]

Originally posted by powerman2000
I guess I'm going to have to be the voice of sanity hear. That article is BAD advice!!! I'm a natural bodybuilder and I've been in the iron game for more than 20 years. After doing the slow cardio for years I've switched to high intensity and I've seen much better results. I haven't lost an ounce of muscle. I can burn twice the amount of calories in half the time and I continue to burn fat/calories throughout the day because I've jacked up my metabolism so high that it just keeps going all day. Even his logic is bad. Let me ask you one question. At the end of his article he states that the slow cardio works for all the pros. Do you then think you should also follow the same weightlifting routines that the pros do? Think about it! If you are a natural lifter then there is very little you should do in the gym that is the same as a pro. Its true, you will burn a higher % of calories from fat at a low intensity, but you are doing little to crank up the flames of your bodies metabolism, which is much more important than being in the "fat burning zone". You also must be very careful with your nutritional support when you do HIIT cardio, but when done correctly is works great! I even do my hiit cardio 1st am on an empty stomach and I still don't lose muscle and believe me I watch myself in the mirror very carefully. Going back for a second, let me clarify that I actually drink a large dose of glutamine before I do my cardio in the am, but I put it in water and ingest nothing else before hand. So, shame on you Bob for writing such a bad article.

Amen....glutamine is a waste of money though

[ronmolina]

I am not a pro but have been weight training for 40 years. If you truely want to burn the most fat without sacrificing muscle then Bobs method is by far the best. Slow easy cardio over extent periods. Now if you simply want to lose weight and dont care where it comes from HIIT works great. Just be prepared to give up more muscle then slow easy cardio.

[Icex999]

It's a very good article, and the technique does indeed work. HIT is also an excellent technique for burning body-fat that some people prefer over the slow-go method. Both work however, and there is plenty of science backing both, which makes giving a straightforward answer as to which is better somewhat difficult.

However, the slow-go method isn't exactly as straightforward as Bob delved into when you consider such factors as energy balance and nutrient partioning.

[powerman2000]

Originally posted by BOB CHICK
Get yourself ready for a show with your technique, THEN get back to me on if you think it worked or not.....

You proved EXACTLY what I was trying to point out in your post....thank you!

So Bob, tell me what was it exactly that was in my post that proved your point? How come after I started the HIIT I could see better results than ever compared to the slow cardio? The mirror doesn't lie. Don't get me wrong, they both work, but HIIT is better. Why don't you check Layne Norton's progress for yourself since he uses it and is getting ready for a show as we speak. I'm in the leanest off season condition of my life and yes, it also has to do with my diet. BTW, I may not be a pro, but I've been doing this longer than you have.

[powerman2000]

Originally posted by ronmolina
I am not a pro but have been weight training for 40 years. If you truely want to burn the most fat without sacrificing muscle then Bobs method is by far the best. Slow easy cardio over extent periods. Now if you simply want to lose weight and dont care where it comes from HIIT works great. Just be prepared to give up more muscle then slow easy cardio.

Wow, 40 years you say? Sorry to disappoint you, but you are wrong. I have said over and over that I haven't lost any muscle and the mirror don't lie.

[Icex999]

Here's just an interesting link to show everybody else the opposing viewpoint on slow-go cardio.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by Icex999
Here's just an interesting link to show everybody else the opposing viewpoint on slow-go cardio.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm

a much more sound article for those that care about science and logic

[metron9]

New to the board here. I was 3 years into heavy bodybuilding when I was 20 years old, got married and back at it again finally im 46 now. Through the years I have attempted to lift again but after a couple of months I would get sick. My problem was I was not getting the nutrition I needed pre and post workout and worst of all I had sleep apnia and could never recover because of the lack of sleep.

This artical brings a question to mind now that I understand a few things.

HIT and going to failure using heavy weights brings in all 3 energy systems, you need to eat plenty of carbs for energy for the workout, you need the insulin spike to get out of the catabolic state after an intense workout and plenty of protein to rebuild the muscles you break down. The trick is finding out how many carbs and protein and how much fast glycimic carbs to get the insulin spike without triggering the fat storing mode.

Now the question, If I do a 45 min workout to maximum failure and the next day my body is doing all the repair work would it not be better to do slow cardio on that day vs HIT cardio because it will stress the body less and allow me to be better rested for the following HIT lifting?

Another thing I am testing on this slow cardio is for example, If i set the treadmill to 3 mph I have a constant heart rate of around 100 + or - 1 beat. After 30 min my heart rate starts to climb and I start to break a sweat on my forehead. Could this be the switch over from fat burning mode to burning muscle?

Im down from 234 lbs to 218 in 4 weeks so far this go around but I have stalled at 218 for 2 weeks now, I did stop doing cardio and started back up tonight after reading this artical. I track Protein,Fat and Carbs for each day as I am trying to find the point where I can lose the fat and gain muscle.

Some stats:
Barbell Preacher Curls 3 sets x 6 85 lbs 17" Biceps
5' 11" 218 lbs
Only able to bench 175 lbs I was up to 250 a few years ago for one rep and I have only worked my chest 2 times because I only started really lifting 2 weeks ago. Last week I did squats with only 100 lbs and after the second day I was almost unable to walk (had my wife help me with donky calf raises that day too)

Anyway I have learned quite a bit from this site and no signes of getting ill this time around, maby you will see me in some over 50 contest some day but for now I just want to get rid of about 30 lbs of fat around my belly as my new bodyfat scale says im at frikin 30%!!!!!

Is it possible to add as much muscle lbs in a month as you lose body fat? Could I lose 30 lbs of fat and gain 30 lbs of muscle and stay at 218 for the next few years? I guess the only way to tell if you lose muscle while losing bodyfat is to have an accurate bodyfat measurement and the actual weight so the one poster above looking in the mirror and not seeing any muscle loss is not to me anyway a valid way to tell if slow or HIT is better for him as the mirror takes into account the eyes of the beholder. I'm not pickin a fight (cause im not back in shape yet) but you get my point.

[Pro Bob Chick]

Layne, Layne, layne......

You have eyes, but you do not see....

You would be wise to adopt this method of cardio, as you don't have any muscle to spare, brother.....

keep following your "science and logic", Spock...you'll end up looking like you just got released from Auschwitz by the time you get on stage.

[ronmolina]

Layne if you understood the science you would know HIIT hurts a body builder preparing for a contest. Works great for sprinters and distant runners though. By the way have you seen any sprinters with 18+ inch arms? For that matter with thighs the size of todays pros?

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by ronmolina
Layne if you understood the science you would know HIIT hurts a body builder preparing for a contest. Works great for sprinters and distant runners though. By the way have you seen any sprinters with 18+ inch arms? For that matter with thighs the size of todays pros?

Yes, I do understand the science.

And bob it does not surprise me that you would take a personal shot at my physique rather than debate me. You show your class once again.

[str8flexed]

yet I will debate you in any case. This is taken from my pre contest article... this is my cardio section... and it is fully referenced

Of course... none of it matters right? B/c I don't have 20" arms
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cardio

Perhaps the most dreaded word in a bodybuilder's vocabulary is cardio. Unfortunately, cardio is a necessary evil of pre contest prep for most people. Few are able to achieve contest bodyfat levels through diet alone (i.e. ectomorphs with extremely fast metabolisms). In men, cardio increases lipolysis in visceral fat (surrounding organs), especially in the stubborn abdominal area. In women, cardio increases lipolysis in the stubborn subcutaneous buttocks and thigh area in women. This is due to innervation and blood flow, which aerobic activity influences much more than diet alone(17).

Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.

Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism). Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons...
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low- intensity cardio.
Long periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.
The body's hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body's hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.

High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIIT) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories .
At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I've seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

http://www.dolfzine.com/page483.htm (if you only read one article, READ THIS ONE!)
http://www.dolfzine.com/page484.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm

I also implore you to read this thread from the bodybuilding.com message boards as it may help you better understand the subject and or answer any questions you might have.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=99420

In conclusion, I suggest performing HIIT cardiovascular work on their off days only. One should treat this cardio session like a weight session and eat accordingly (as outlined in the diet section). If you must perform cardio on your lifting days then do it on the day you train your weakest body part and divide up your carbohydrate intake in view that you leave enough carbohydrates for both pre/post lifting and cardio.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Layne "Think... It's not illegal yet"

[bhman6]

Layne, I completely agree with you. Bob, not to take anything away from you, but as naturals, the rules for us change a little bit. Maybe the pros use slow cardio, but the pros have a little extra assistance than most of us.

[Tom Ricci]

I don't usually agree with Bob, but for me and for most of the
competitors I train for contests, slow cardio works better than
HIIT.There are those who will see benefits from HIIT no doubt
just as there are people who will eat crap, lift once a week and
still look awesome. (yeah I hate those guys too). I think it has
more to do with the person's set point being a little higher than
their resting heart rate. I say whatever method works for you
then do it, and it may work this week, next week and so on but
I go back time and again and try different methods of lifting and
cardio because of the body's ability to adapt I believe in keeping
all loptions and methods open for periodic review. Long winded
sorry.

[Dorian]

I think the article was interesting but ..... not true.
It may work for him, but in real life it is different.
If I took a pharmacy with me everywhere I went then maybe it would work.
I also do not get the idea that the body will use carbs during high intensity and fat during low intensity. This is BS>
First oiff the body will deplete the carb stores and then turn to the fat stores.
The only way the body will automaticly use fat stores at low intensity is by training the bodyto do that and that would be using some form of Keto diet.
Then this would allow the body to use primarily fats for a fuel source. But since most people do not do a keto, then it wouls be safe to say that carbs will be the main depletion source prior to using anything else. As for proteins being used for fuel, it could happen if you starved your self and ate very little. The real way to lose alot of muscle is to go into starvation.
I have used slow cardio a few times as a experiment to see if it worked better than high intensity and have found it did not.
Do you have references for this slow cardio to prove through actual scientific testing, to prove it works?
If indeed what you are saying is true, then it wqould be possible for a couch potatoe to lose fat just by performing slow cardio a few times per week. I don't buy this.

[bhman6]

I think Dorian makes a good point.

Not that slow cardio doesn't work well for people, I'm sure both slow and HIIT work differently for different people.

But to say slow cardio is the better approach would require some valid science to prove this, otherwise it is just opinion and heresay.

[Tom Ricci]

My short answer is try different methods, see what works and go
from there. Later on dry different methods again, see what
works, continue. There is no "one size fits all"

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by str8flexed
yet I will debate you in any case. This is taken from my pre contest article... this is my cardio section... and it is fully referenced

Of course... none of it matters right? B/c I don't have 20" arms
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cardio

Perhaps the most dreaded word in a bodybuilder's vocabulary is cardio. Unfortunately, cardio is a necessary evil of pre contest prep for most people. Few are able to achieve contest bodyfat levels through diet alone (i.e. ectomorphs with extremely fast metabolisms). In men, cardio increases lipolysis in visceral fat (surrounding organs), especially in the stubborn abdominal area. In women, cardio increases lipolysis in the stubborn subcutaneous buttocks and thigh area in women. This is due to innervation and blood flow, which aerobic activity influences much more than diet alone(17).

Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.

Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism). Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons...
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low- intensity cardio.
Long periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.
The body's hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body's hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.

High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIIT) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories .
At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I've seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

http://www.dolfzine.com/page483.htm (if you only read one article, READ THIS ONE!)
http://www.dolfzine.com/page484.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm

I also implore you to read this thread from the bodybuilding.com message boards as it may help you better understand the subject and or answer any questions you might have.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...threadid=99420

In conclusion, I suggest performing HIIT cardiovascular work on their off days only. One should treat this cardio session like a weight session and eat accordingly (as outlined in the diet section). If you must perform cardio on your lifting days then do it on the day you train your weakest body part and divide up your carbohydrate intake in view that you leave enough carbohydrates for both pre/post lifting and cardio.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

-Layne "Think... It's not illegal yet"

HOLY ****!

Damn right that was illegal, you used cites and the word science!

Kc "Do directly to jail, do not college $200 for passing GO"

[Tete]

to whomever said sprinter don't have 18" arms....THEY ARE SPRINTERS NOT BODYBUILDERS...

[Pro Bob Chick]

Once again, layne...I'm amazed that we (I) can't refer to your physique as a reference....WHY?

If what you say has all the science behind it...you should have no problem using yourself as a test subject, the results (I'm sure) will speak for themselves....

You also don't have enough experience in your short "career", to REALLY know which method is best, or would yield the better results....your a man of science...how can you tell everyone which way is better based on the fact that YOU have only done one particular style, and have limited experience at best??

You can't.

This has nothing to do with having 20 in. arms, etc as you like to keep pointing out, and doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you on gear....In reality, being "natural" would be even MORE reason to follow the slow cardio method, as I've seen countless natural athletes waste away to nothing using any type of HIIT style, without the benefits of gear to keep on the mass.

Why do you think ALL the pro's use this style? Because it works...because we've already been where you are, and have learned the hard way.....because we've seen the results it yields, etc.

BTW, I'm sure I could scour the internet and mag sources, and articles to find PLENTY of "scientific proof" to back up pretty much anything....quite frankly, I don't have the time,or the need to prove myself....I have myself and my career, and hundreds of successful clients as all the reference I need....

results speak for themselves.

someday you might get it, probably not though......

keep debating....

[Tete]

Originally posted by BOB CHICK
Once again, layne...I'm amazed that we (I) can't refer to your physique as a reference....WHY?

If what you say has all the science behind it...you should have no problem using yourself as a test subject, the results (I'm sure) will speak for themselves....

You also don't have enough experience in your short "career", to REALLY know which method is best, or would yield the better results....your a man of science...how can you tell everyone which way is better based on the fact that YOU have only done one particular style, and have limited experience at best??

You can't.

This has nothing to do with having 20 in. arms, etc as you like to keep pointing out, and doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you on gear....In reality, being "natural" would be even MORE reason to follow the slow cardio method, as I've seen countless natural athletes waste away to nothing using any type of HIIT style, without the benefits of gear to keep on the mass.

Why do you think ALL the pro's use this style? Because it works...because we've already been where you are, and have learned the hard way.....because we've seen the results it yields, etc.

BTW, I'm sure I could scour the internet and mag sources, and articles to find PLENTY of "scientific proof" to back up pretty much anything....quite frankly, I don't have the time,or the need to prove myself....I have myself and my career, and hundreds of successful clients as all the reference I need....

results speak for themselves.

someday you might get it, probably not though......

keep debating....

but what about drinking your pre/post workout drinks before/after HIIT....I mean...HIIT is hormonaly(sp?) similar to weightlifting...I'm not being a bitch here just asking...and also I don't think it's fair to tell layne that he doesn't have enough muscle...the guy weights 220 pounds and is 100% natural (I believe him)....in saying all this I don't mean any disrespect to you or your achievments
good luck with the movies and your next comp

[FortifiedIron]

Originally posted by BOB CHICK
Once again, layne...I'm amazed that we (I) can't refer to your physique as a reference....WHY?

If what you say has all the science behind it...you should have no problem using yourself as a test subject, the results (I'm sure) will speak for themselves....

You also don't have enough experience in your short "career", to REALLY know which method is best, or would yield the better results....your a man of science...how can you tell everyone which way is better based on the fact that YOU have only done one particular style, and have limited experience at best??

You can't.

This has nothing to do with having 20 in. arms, etc as you like to keep pointing out, and doesn't really have anything to do with whether or not you on gear....In reality, being "natural" would be even MORE reason to follow the slow cardio method, as I've seen countless natural athletes waste away to nothing using any type of HIIT style, without the benefits of gear to keep on the mass.

Why do you think ALL the pro's use this style? Because it works...because we've already been where you are, and have learned the hard way.....because we've seen the results it yields, etc.

BTW, I'm sure I could scour the internet and mag sources, and articles to find PLENTY of "scientific proof" to back up pretty much anything....quite frankly, I don't have the time,or the need to prove myself....I have myself and my career, and hundreds of successful clients as all the reference I need....

results speak for themselves.

someday you might get it, probably not though......

keep debating....

Bob does the name Johnnie Jackson ring a bell to you?


Kc

[PowerManDL]

So we're back to the "I'm big so I'm right" argument.

I don't know where you're getting off knocking Layne, Bob...he's got one of the best physiques I've seen natty or otherwise, so you're really doing nothing but making yourself look like a cocky jackass by attacking him via that route.

You've still never once addressed the key point at hand, that being you have no counter-argument but "I do it this way and look at me!" As has already been stated, you could look the way you do as a result of numerous factors, none of which involves you knowing your ass from a hole in the ground with respect to training or nutrition.

Is there something more I'm missing here? I don't think I'm being out of line by simply asking for some qualification besides "look at me! I'm hyooge!"