Layne Norton - Let The Countdown Begin: 18 Weeks Out!

[webmaster]

I have decided to start cutting at approximately 22 weeks out this year and only lose 1-1.5 lbs per week. I want to leave nothing to chance...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/layne28.htm

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Layne since you ran out like a little girl ignoring my responses on your HIIT vs slow CARDIO we should continue the debate here. Are you afraid?

[Bignbuff]

Originally posted by Yellow Jacket85
Layne since you ran out like a little girl ignoring my responses on your HIIT vs slow CARDIO we should continue the debate here. Are you afraid?

Please don't start up with this BS.

[Big Cat]

I don't get why people respond to article reviews like this. Post your arguments, if you have any, and leave the personal stuff out. That's not so hard is it ?

If you want to beef with layne, mail him or PM him. I personally don't read all my article reviews, I'm sure the same holds true for Layne.

I'm sure its an interesting discussion, and if it can be conducted in a professional manner, I'd even gladly participate.

[Stay Puft]

Originally posted by Big Cat
I'm sure its an interesting discussion, and if it can be conducted in a professional manner, I'd even gladly participate.

AMEN!

[str8flexed]

I already posted all my argument and YJ responded to none of the points made. He is good at insulting, not debating.

What an ourright lie! Can't say I didn't expect it. I have asked you repeatedly to address the issue before it was closed and you totally ran away like a little girl from the debate.

Lets review:

HIIT will cut into recovery of legs(most preferred way of doing HIIT) so if you skip out on leg workouts altogether to get in your 2 or 3 HIIT workouts a week now your aren't working your legs or doing anything to help maintain overall body muscle. However if you add it in you are overtraining your legs because now they have to deal with HIIT and lifting.

Secondly HIIT is harder on your body overall so it will effect recovery and muscle maintenance evenif you don't use legs in your HIIT routine.

[Big Cat]

Might I add some comments ? I generally employ both HIIT and slow cardio for my athletes in contest prep. 1 session of HIIT, as far removed from leg training as possible. I don't see this impairing recovery much since legs recover fast. The excess damage of high intensity is in fast twitch fiber and legs aren't particularly rich in fast twitch fiber.

And two sessions of slow cardio, where intensity is moderate at best, but maintained for at least 80 or 90 minutes. Slow cardio is largely cortisol based, and norepinephrine protects against the apoptotic effects of catabolic conditions, so once again, the detrimental side is insignificant compared to the benefit.

Both offer an added benefit, so I'm not sure we are having a discussion that will pay off here. You both seem to be missing out on a great aid in fat loss.

Originally posted by Big Cat
Might I add some comments ? I generally employ both HIIT and slow cardio for my athletes in contest prep. 1 session of HIIT, as far removed from leg training as possible. I don't see this impairing recovery much since legs recover fast. The excess damage of high intensity is in fast twitch fiber and legs aren't particularly rich in fast twitch fiber.

And two sessions of slow cardio, where intensity is moderate at best, but maintained for at least 80 or 90 minutes. Slow cardio is largely cortisol based, and norepinephrine protects against the apoptotic effects of catabolic conditions, so once again, the detrimental side is insignificant compared to the benefit.

Both offer an added benefit, so I'm not sure we are having a discussion that will pay off here. You both seem to be missing out on a great aid in fat loss.

IF your only doing 1 session a week of HIIT i would rather increase my volume slightly to all my workouts then do add in 1 HIIT. Some of us don't have the genetics to be wasting time cutting into our recovery and it would be rather best to spend that towards preserving muscle ie, lifting weights.

Also you seem to be only looking at this ONLY at the muscular level. Doesn't HIIT cause a lot of strain on the CNS? Youll feel MORE exhuasted after 12 minutes of heavy HIIT then after a 30 minute moderate intense lifting session.

Anyways I appreciate your input Big Cat.

If we can get Bob to see this and layne to actually debate( ) maybe we can get this resolved.

That was me that posted that above.

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Unregistered
IF your only doing 1 session a week of HIIT i would rather increase my volume slightly to all my workouts then do add in 1 HIIT. Some of us don't have the genetics to be wasting time cutting into our recovery and it would be rather best to spend that towards preserving muscle ie, lifting weights.

Also you seem to be only looking at this ONLY at the muscular level. Doesn't HIIT cause a lot of strain on the CNS? Youll feel MORE exhuasted after 12 minutes of heavy HIIT then after a 30 minute moderate intense lifting session.

Anyways I appreciate your input Big Cat.

If we can get Bob to see this and layne to actually debate( ) maybe we can get this resolved.

Well, you have to place things in perspective. During cutting you aren't going to add any muscle. Once cutting diet is seriously underway, you normally switch an athlete from 5 divided sessions, training one or two muscle-groups, to three sessions of circuit-training. These three, plus the HIIT are all high intensity modes of cardio.

Adding on to your training does not have the same effect since it does not stimulate whole body fatburning, but only in the muscles worked. You have to see it from that perspective. Even with an additional circuit on a 4th day, you would not get the same result as from that one round of HIIT.

Your alternative is adding more slow cardio, but a balance between the two is more favourable and less likely to bring out the negatives of either method.

Trust me, bro, I wouldn't risk having an athlete do it if I wasn't sure of what I was doing

Originally posted by Big Cat
Well, you have to place things in perspective. During cutting you aren't going to add any muscle. Once cutting diet is seriously underway, you normally switch an athlete from 5 divided sessions, training one or two muscle-groups, to three sessions of circuit-training. These three, plus the HIIT are all high intensity modes of cardio.

Adding on to your training does not have the same effect since it does not stimulate whole body fatburning, but only in the muscles worked. You have to see it from that perspective. Even with an additional circuit on a 4th day, you would not get the same result as from that one round of HIIT.

Your alternative is adding more slow cardio, but a balance between the two is more favourable and less likely to bring out the negatives of either method.

Trust me, bro, I wouldn't risk having an athlete do it if I wasn't sure of what I was doing

What is the negative of sticking with just slow cardio??


BTW, when are we talking about slow cardio, in the morning without eating or with eating or what?

Wish I could edit posts.

[str8flexed]

taken from something I wrote on cardio a while back should answer all of the questions and address anything asked thus far.

Cardiovascular exercise has several myths surrounding it. The largest myth being that one should perform low intensity cardio in a fasted state. The logic being that if one is in a fasted state, their glycogen levels will be low and will force their body to burn fat. Unfortunately, this idea is misguided. While performing cardio in a fasted state may indeed increase the amount of calories that are burned from fat stores, it will also increase amino acid oxidation. Cardiovascular exercise while in a fasted state is a great way to increase cortisol release. Cortisol will liberate amino acids to produce glucose (glucose cannot be synthesized from fats) and can lead to muscle loss. Additionally, I find it ironic that many people take such great care to time their meals so that they do not go for more than 2-3 hours without eating in order to prevent muscle loss. However, they purposefully induce this state and then perform work on top of this! Research has shown that the type of substrate used during cardiovascular work makes little overall difference on fat loss. This is most likely due to the fact if one relies mostly upon fat stores during cardio (i.e. low intensity cardio), the body will burn predominantly glucose at other times of the day. Likewise, if one mainly utilizes glucose for energy during cardio (i.e. high intensity cardio) the body will customarily rely on fat at other times of the day in order to spare muscle glycogen. Training in and of itself causes the body to preferentially spare muscle glycogen and burn fat. It makes sense that one should strive to do their cardio on their ‘off days’ from lifting (as to not further hinder their recovery), and plan their carbohydrate intake similar to their lifting regime. Cardiovascular work will increase nutrient partitioning towards muscle tissue and away from fat tissue. One should take advantage of this by consuming the bulk of their carbohydrate intake around this time. The benefits are that these nutrients induce fat storage, but will rather be stored in muscle tissue.

Why would you want to deny your muscles nutrients at the most crucial time of the day, but then provide them during rest?
It does not make sense. Treat your cardiovascular work like your lifting.

Another question that often arises regarding cardio is the argument “Low-Intensity vs High-Intensity” cardio. Many people automatically assume that low-intensity cardio is better; citing that high-intensity cardio primarily utilizes glucose (anaerobic metabolism), while low-intensity cardio primarily burns fat (aerobic metabolism). Once again, the substrate used during cardiovascular work is not as important as the caloric deficit created by the cardiovascular work. In actuality, high-intensity cardiovascular work is superior to low-intensity cardio for several reasons…
High intensity cardio has a much stronger effect on GLUT-4 translocation in muscle cells due to the increased force of muscle contraction. This means that high-intensity cardio creates a much stronger nutrient partitioning effect towards muscle tissue than low- intensity cardio.
Low periods of low-intensity exercise tend to "overtrain" the fast-twitch muscle fibers and convert the intermediate muscle fibers to slow-twitch fibers. This is not a desirable effect as the fast twitch muscle fibers are those that have the greatest chance to hypertrophy. If your body has less fast twitch fibers, then you will experience less hypertrophy from training.
The body’s hormonal response to high intensity cardio is similar to the body’s hormonal response to resistance training (i.e. increased insulin sensitivity, gh release, Igf-1 release, etc) without placing the same strain on the nervous system as resistance training.
High-intensity cardio causes the body to preferentially store more carbohydrates and burn more fat.
High-intensity cardiovascular exercise increases oxygen expenditure and forces the body adapt by becoming more efficient at oxygen transport (increase in VO2 max). More efficient oxygen transport to the muscles will increase fat oxidation as fat oxidation is dependant upon the presence of oxygen.

High-intensity cardio seems to be more muscle sparing. Several studies have shown that high-intensity interval training (aka HIIT) burns less calories when compared to continuous lower intensity cardio. However, the skinfold losses were greater with the HIIT group than in the continuous intensity group. This means not only did the HIIT group lose more fat, they also spared more muscle tissue by burning less overall calories .
At this point I am going to refer you to several articles that I think are some of the best I’ve seen regarding cardiovascular work. I urge you to read them as they will re-emphasize what I have already stated, as well as help you gain a further understanding of how cardiovascular work effects your metabolism.

http://www.dolfzine.com/page483.htm (if you only read one article… READ THIS ONE!)
http://www.dolfzine.com/page484.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter2.htm
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/satter3.htm

[Big Cat]

I don't think the benefit of HIIT is that much at issue here. It seems to me you have trouble accepting the benefit of slow cardio as well.

Things aren't black and white, most often they are grey. Especially when it comes to physiology. Learn to reap the benefits of both.

[fupafighter2]

Originally posted by Big Cat
I don't think the benefit of HIIT is that much at issue here. It seems to me you have trouble accepting the benefit of slow cardio as well.

Things aren't black and white, most often they are grey. Especially when it comes to physiology. Learn to reap the benefits of both.

absolutely...

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by Big Cat
I don't think the benefit of HIIT is that much at issue here. It seems to me you have trouble accepting the benefit of slow cardio as well.

Things aren't black and white, most often they are grey. Especially when it comes to physiology. Learn to reap the benefits of both.

It's not so much that. Lately, I can understand an occasional bout of low intensity cardio, however as far as overall fat oxidation goes, high intensity is far better. I am also worried about long bouts of low intensity cardio since we know that fast twitch fibers tend to de-train and act more like slow twitch fibers under such conditions.

Big cat, wait only local fat reduction?? I thought spot reduction was a myth? Where the hell are you getting your science.

Originally posted by str8flexed
I am also worried about long bouts of low intensity cardio since we know that fast twitch fibers tend to de-train and act more like slow twitch fibers under such conditions.

That takes many months or years.


Are these studies done on people who LIFT weights also during the week and who are trained individuals?? IM just wondering if being untrained individuals will cause a greater fat oxidation at first but later equal or less then slow after a few weeks. Also maybe if the people in the study were doing lifting weights they wouldn't burn more fat because they are getting that mechanism done through lifting weights.

I see research that doesn't tell the whole story Layne.

[str8flexed]

Originally posted by Yellow Jacket89
That takes many months or years.


Are these studies done on people who LIFT weights also during the week and who are trained individuals?? IM just wondering if being untrained individuals will cause a greater fat oxidation at first but later equal or less then slow after a few weeks. Also maybe if the people in the study were doing lifting weights they wouldn't burn more fat because they are getting that mechanism done through lifting weights.

I see research that doesn't tell the whole story Layne.

conversion is a contstantly occuring process, it is not as if you hit a certain number of cardio sessions or a certain duration of low intensity and your body suddenly initiates massive detraining. Indeed it may take months to see appreciable differences due to detraining but it happens nonetheless.

You see, fiber detraining happens with any training, even with training styles such as powerlifting, some detraining occurs, however the amount and the degree to which it occurs depends upon the type of exercise performed. The body will "want" to convert fast twitch fibers to act like slow twitch fibers if given a chance b/c fast twitch fibers are much more energetically expensive than slow twitch fibers. Thus, any high intensity activity will work to initiate retention mechanisms to retain these fibers to function as fast twitch. This is why I tend to shy away from low intensity work, and especially frequent bouts of it.

Perhaps PowermanDL will have a bit more to add on this as he is much more knowledgable in this area than myself.

-Layne

[C-Los]

Originally posted by Big Cat
I don't think the benefit of HIIT is that much at issue here. It seems to me you have trouble accepting the benefit of slow cardio as well.

Things aren't black and white, most often they are grey. Especially when it comes to physiology. Learn to reap the benefits of both.

You're the smartest mofo in here man!

[Big Cat]

Originally posted by Yellow Jacket89
Big cat, wait only local fat reduction?? I thought spot reduction was a myth? Where the hell are you getting your science.

I was implying local fat burning, fat oxidation is induced in the trained area's, it does not mean that the fat is reduced only in that area, it can oxidize fats from any depot that releases fatty acids.