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  1. #1
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    Size Vs Strength

    This is about strength Vs. pure size type routines, where they fit in, and what realistic goals are to be considered an advanced trainee by genetically typical, and usually drug free standards.

    Most guys just don�t have great genetics relative to adding size and strength to their frame. Knowing that, the key is to make the best of what you have. And for most guys that consists of being extremely focused, and extremely realistic. And the reality is, most guys can build a fair strength/size base if they train and diet correctly. I will use Stuart McRoberts goals/guidelines to define that strength level:

    For Joe average of 5'9 190-205 in a fairly lean state, Joe has a 300 lb bench give or take a few lbs, and can do rep work with 250 +. We want to see Joe Squatting at least 400-450 for a single, or doing rep work with 350 +. Joe should also be able to do deads with about the same weights as his squat, or maybe a little higher. Stuart simply stated 300/400/500 for bench, squat, and deadlift.

    Most guys can get there (at least within 50 lbs over or under dependant on body mechanics for each lift) if they TRULY dedicate themselves to bread and butter training and heavy eating. MOST guys never come close, but could if they didn't overtrain and under-eat.

    The reason most (some fail purely because of diet) never get this so very important strength base is they always train doing too many lifts, using many techniques that are more specific to size instead of strength. Pure hypertrophy training is well and good IF it works for you, but it's time and place is AFTER you have dedicated yourself to building the foundation. I recently had a couple of personal training clients that were disappointed that the routine I wrote was not geared for towards "size" gains. They wanted less rest between lifts and more sets so they could focus on getting bigger. The problem was both these guys were beginner level weak (after training for years). In fact, 5 out of the 8 girls I currently train have a bigger squat and dead than these guys do. I don't care how many fast "pump" sets you do with girl weights. The truth is, you will still look like a girl if that is all the weight you use.

    It doesn�t take long for most people to realize that they will never total Elite in powerlifting, nor do any serious damage on the posing dais. Genetics is the first and last word about how far you can go. You may never be freaky strong, or freaky huge. But with the correct focus, here is what will happen. After you have paid your dues with the big lifts for heavy weights and heavy eating, you will be stronger than about 90-95% of the guys in the gym. And a good percentage of you will have the size to go along with it. But.......some of you will not be as big as you "should be� for your strength. Guess what??? Now its time to start trying some of the protocols that tend to build size at the expense of strength. But also guess how much more effective that type of training is now that you are not lifting girl weights!!!

    The right way to get there for most people is to COMMIT to spending a couple of years (or more) worried about little more than the little more than adding weight on the bar from workout to workout. For many people, this is all they need to do to get huge. But SOME guys get a lot stronger without a linear increase in size. Often much of what occurs from a strength standpoint occurs primarily through innervation gains. This does little for size. But with patience, when the bar is a lot heavier, you will be too. There is no way for you to add 75-125 lbs to your bench or dips, and 150-250 lbs to your squat and deadlift, and big numbers to all your other lifts without getting a lot bigger. It just doesn�t happen.

    Now let me insert three VERY critical ideas here.

    The first is MANY people think they are hardgainers, or naturally weak because they train and eat like ****. Train somewhat like many powerlifters (but with slightly higher reps) do for a few months and eat like a horse and you may find this is all irrelevant because you may find you build strength and size rapidly when not doing some of the crazy **** many bodybuilders do.

    The second thing is that you realize it doesn't happen overnight, and if you are not progressing at a rate you think acceptable you need to do something few do in these days and times. You keep at your task and apply lots of thought, deductive reasoning, and learn everything you can about what you are attempting to do. And that doesn't mean from glossy coated muscle mags that are really supplement catalogs in disguise. Try Hardgainer magazine, Powerlifting USA (and yes, there is a lot in PL USA geared towards guys with great genetics, but it�s better than almost all the BB mags), and online sources that specifically STATE THE INFO IS GEARED TOWARD THE AVERAGE TRAINEE, NOT GENETIC WONDERS. And then FAITHFULLY apply what you know day in day out. This isn't stamp collecting we�re doing here. Its tough, and it takes balls to train and eat right consistently.

    The Third thing is to accept the best of what you have and are capable of. Some people will never hit 300/400/500, and some will plow through them FAST once training right. If you are one of the extreme, extreme ecto's, or an endo that just isn't wired for strength, and you have truly paid your dues, and just don't have it. Do everything you can to get as strong as you can, then, a little stronger. THEN, and only then consider yourself "advanced" and change your focus to a hypertrophy routine SUITABLE FOR PEOPLE WITH AVERAGE GENETICS! This, for many people is simply a routine using higher reps, a few more lifts, with more sets than HIT/Hardgainer style training, but much less than volume training. Using an intensity level higher than volume, lower than hit.

    Once you are MOST of the way there it is fine to experiment a little with some hypertrophy specific techniques, but continually trying these types of training too soon will usually just be a counterproductive waste of time. Some people find doing a small cycles of mid-level volume work interspersed with HIT/Hardgainer techniques provides additional growth without overtraining them. This is an option for those with slightly better than average recovery ability. I will go into more detail about the format in another article, but most people reading this should be focused about getting stronger for a while longer.

    Iron Addict

    www.ironaddicts.com
    Last edited by the iron addict; 02-09-2004 at 04:35 PM.
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  2. #2
    Registered User ComfortEagle's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Nice post.
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  3. #3
    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    .......................

    IA. I was using a max-ot style routine I made up and my dip went from +55 for 3 sets to +135 for the same. I gained 13lbs on top of that. I gained size, but I thought I'd be MUCH bigger dipping 135lbs. either way I'm not complaining. I'll just have to shoot for +200lbs.

    anyway, I'm starting up a low volume/high frequency routine that is very basic ( as are all my routines ) and my goal is to progress in the exercises as fast as I can. I've done a low volume/high frequency routine in the past and it worked well, even though my diet was terrible.

    here's what it looks like:


    push day:

    inc. bench: 2x6-8
    seated military: 2x6-8
    dips: 2x6-8
    db calf raise: 2x6-8 (they're easy on the lower back)

    pull day:

    squat: 2x6-8
    deads: 2x6-8
    pullups: 2x6-8
    bb curl: 2x6-8

    frequency:
    .................M......W.....F
    wk1..........ps.....pl.....ps
    wk2..........pl......ps....pl
    etc...
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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  4. #4
    Registered User the iron addict's Avatar
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    Looks good Mass, you are a testimonial of what good basic training can accomplish. How many other trainees in your gym are dipping with 135 around their waist? Not many I bet. While you were zipping your way through the poundage progression, most of the guys in your gym were probably in the gym 5-6 days a week and still look the same. GREAT JOB!

    Iron Addict

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  5. #5
    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    .......................

    I went from +55 to +135 in less than 5 months. which seems fast, but it's only roughly 5lbs a week. it's all about steady strength gains. for me it's like this. if I don't lift more weight or do more reps than last time, I worry. if I still don't improve by next session then I change something so that I do improve. I always write down the time of day I'm training, how much sleep I got, nutrition ofcourse... just so I look back and know WHY I am or am not progressing, it could be something as simple as not getting enough sleep. like you said, I don't understand people who lift the same weights each time and expect to get bigger. if all you press is 135, then you'll only have as much muscle that is needed to press 135.
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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  6. #6
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    Talking

    Originally posted by the iron addict
    Looks good Mass, you are a testimonial of what good basic training can accomplish. How many other trainees in your gym are dipping with 135 around their waist? Not many I bet. While you were zipping your way through the poundage progression, most of the guys in your gym were probably in the gym 5-6 days a week and still look the same. GREAT JOB!

    Iron Addict

    www.ironaddicts.com
    wk 1 upper body(1 workout on monday)
    wk 2 lower body( 1 workout on monday)

    repeat

    keep it simple
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  7. #7
    Registered User Kane Fan's Avatar
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    Re: .......................

    Originally posted by massmatters
    IA. I was using a max-ot style routine I made up and my dip went from +55 for 3 sets to +135 for the same. I gained 13lbs on top of that. I gained size, but I thought I'd be MUCH bigger dipping 135lbs. either way I'm not complaining. I'll just have to shoot for +200lbs.

    anyway, I'm starting up a low volume/high frequency routine that is very basic ( as are all my routines ) and my goal is to progress in the exercises as fast as I can. I've done a low volume/high frequency routine in the past and it worked well, even though my diet was terrible.

    here's what it looks like:


    push day:

    inc. bench: 2x6-8
    seated military: 2x6-8
    dips: 2x6-8
    db calf raise: 2x6-8 (they're easy on the lower back)

    pull day:

    squat: 2x6-8
    deads: 2x6-8
    pullups: 2x6-8
    bb curl: 2x6-8

    frequency:
    .................M......W.....F
    wk1..........ps.....pl.....ps
    wk2..........pl......ps....pl
    etc...
    if it was max-ot style (rep wise) your reps may have been a little low for ideal mass gains
    I assume you are pretty sure your calorie intake was high enough?
    No-Dope-Crew.

    here's something more constructive
    I helped a guy gain 1/4" on his biceps with 1 workout, and it was definatly volume training
    eat that you buncha HIT nazi's
    (also helped Jesin gain 6/10 " and Q gained 1/10th", also DoctorX2k2 gained 1/4")

    -unrelated bicep comment-
    and btw, I can Hammer Curl the 120's dangit!

    March: 275+
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  8. #8
    Super Member TarvMan's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    nice rant man, good stuff.

    Cant remember if you mentioned it, but training in lower reps for strength also helps build up your tendons and ligement, bone and joint health..... injury resistant.
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  9. #9
    Registered User Nick666's Avatar
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    With HST, you don't necessarily need to get stronger to gain mass. They're right on that, that's what has happened to me..

    I lost some strength during my SD, and I'm hardly getting back to my previous maxes, but I've gained maybe 4 lbs in one months. That's quite good. - but nothing will replace the physical and psychological challenge of a HIT workout.. -
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    Stop on over and check out Animals Board, if he will let you in, you will see IA knows his ****, big time...
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  11. #11
    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    Re: Re: .......................

    Originally posted by Kane Fan
    if it was max-ot style (rep wise) your reps may have been a little low for ideal mass gains
    I assume you are pretty sure your calorie intake was high enough?
    perhaps, but I can't complain with the results. only complaint about the rep range is that it was hard on the joints. 13lbs up and less than an inch on my waist? if my cals were higher I probably would have gained too much fat.
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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  12. #12
    Registered User chunkyaa's Avatar
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    Hey mass,

    Isn't it more like : "grow like a seed" and not like a weed ..
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    Member jinget's Avatar
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    I have seen massmatters in the gym and his progression has been impressive.
    Last edited by jinget; 02-10-2004 at 10:28 PM.
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    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    ....................

    that's my buddy jay who I train with. he started training with me in early october. I showed him how to train correctly and since that time he's went from 6'2 195lbs to 220lbs, with the same bf, about 10%. he went from benchin 235 for 1 to 315 for 2. he is destined to become a beast.
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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    Re: ....................

    Originally posted by massmatters
    that's my buddy jay who I train with. he started training with me in early october. I showed him how to train correctly and since that time he's went from 6'2 195lbs to 220lbs, with the same bf, about 10%. he went from benchin 235 for 1 to 315 for 2. he is destined to become a beast.
    Good job man..
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    Re: ....................

    Originally posted by massmatters
    that's my buddy jay who I train with. he started training with me in early october. I showed him how to train correctly and since that time he's went from 6'2 195lbs to 220lbs, with the same bf, about 10%. he went from benchin 235 for 1 to 315 for 2. he is destined to become a beast.
    Does he follow the same routine as you? Thanks!!


    -Dave
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    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    .................

    yes, we used the same training routine. now we're both switching over to the routine I posted above.
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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  18. #18
    Registered User thompsbj's Avatar
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    Can you suggest a good full body routine geared entirely towards strength gains? Maybe a bunch of singles and doubles would be good, but I have never tried anything like that.
    "Sir, are you classified as human?"
    "Negative, I am a meat popsicle."

    Bodyweight: 185
    Deadlift: 280X3 for 4 sets
    Chinups: B.W. + 42.5 lbs X3 for 4 sets
    Standing Shoulder Press: 125X3
    Incline DB Press 75'sX3 for 3 sets
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    Registered User SoG's Avatar
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    What MAX-OT routine did you guys do? Thanks again!


    -Dave
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    ..........................

    I posted this on another board:
    .........................................

    keeping a high training frequency will maintain a high level of protein synthesis ( growth aka supercompensation ) within the muscle. example. on a traditional split you train chest on monday. around wednesday or thursday you have finished growing from mondays workout. that leaves friday - sunday where your chest COULD be growing, but it is not since you are busy with other bodyparts. one of the ways you can apply this principle to a traditional split ( rather than going full body, or a push/pull split ) is by working each body part twice a week, once directly, once indirectly. I'll show you what I mean:

    monday: legs + biceps ( deadlifts indirect for back )
    tuesday: chest + calves ( dips and inc bench indirect for shoulders and tris )
    wednesday: rest
    thursday: back + abs ( chins and rows indirect for biceps )
    friday: shoulders + tris ( cg bench indirect for chest )
    sat/sun: off

    the only thing that I don't work indirectly is my legs as my lower back takes it's sweet time to recover.

    eitherway, it's just an idea of how you can maximize protein synthesis with a few minor changes to your routine.
    ...................................

    I'll post the exact details such as exercise selection when I get back from my night class.
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  21. #21
    olympian idol massmatters's Avatar
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    ............

    here's the routine:

    Monday: Legs + Biceps

    Squats 3 x 4-6
    Front Squats 3 x 4-6
    Deads 2 x 4-6
    EZ Curls 3 x 4-6
    EZ Preacher 2 x 4-6

    Tuesday: Chest + Calves

    Dips 3 x 4-6
    Inc Bench 3 x 4-6
    DB Bench 2 x 4-6
    Calf raise 3 x 4-6
    Seated Calf 2 x 4-6

    Thursday: Back + Abs

    'EZ Chins' [EZ bar style grip*] 3 x 4-6
    BB Row 3 x 4-6
    DB Row 2 x 4-6
    Weighted Crunches 3 x 6-8
    Hanging Leg Raises 2 x 6-8

    Friday: Shoulders + Tris

    OHP 3 x 4-6
    DB Seated OHP 3 x 4-6
    CG Bench 3 x 4-6
    Skulls 2 x 4-6


    * (I grip the insdes of the pull up handes so it looks like this \ /
    I found that doing them this way bring the forarms more into the movement, letting you use more weight, and getting rid of most of the sticking point in the middle.)
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    Registered User chunkyaa's Avatar
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    Don't you think you miss some hamstring work ? Or are you going very deep on squat, so you work hams and glute ?
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    Registered User thompsbj's Avatar
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    BLDLs work the hamstrings a lot too.
    "Sir, are you classified as human?"
    "Negative, I am a meat popsicle."

    Bodyweight: 185
    Deadlift: 280X3 for 4 sets
    Chinups: B.W. + 42.5 lbs X3 for 4 sets
    Standing Shoulder Press: 125X3
    Incline DB Press 75'sX3 for 3 sets
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    .......................

    deep squats and deadlifts is all the hamstring work I need.
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    Registered User Wes's Avatar
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    Just wondering, what is your endurance like? How many times can you rep 225?
    Thanks.
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    bump
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    .............................

    flat bench I can only rep it 8-10 times. I'm mostly fast twitch, my max is 325. so I progress better in lower rep ranges.

    edit: haven't maxed out in almost 2 months. I don't like maxing out as it cuts into my workouts, and I don't really care about 1 rep maxes.
    Last edited by massmatters; 02-14-2004 at 05:55 PM.
    Train like an animal
    Eat like a horse
    Sleep like a baby
    Grow like a weed

    I've got more mass than a church on sunday.

    someone, somewhere is training harder with less excuses.

    the harder I lift and the more I eat, the better my genetics seem to get.

    got www.bodybuildingapplied.com ?
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  28. #28
    Registered User thanatopsis's Avatar
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    I'm one of those guys that trains hard, gets stronger, but doesn't get a whole lot bigger... currently I'm sitting at 178 lbs first thing in the morning with the following major lifts:

    Dead Lifts:
    455 x 4
    or
    405 x 8

    Squats:
    425 x 8
    or
    405 x 11

    DB Bench:
    120 x 7
    or
    130 x 4

    Weighted Dips:
    +90 lbs x 18 reps

    Weighted Wide Pull-Ups:
    +45 lbs x 11 reps

    Not too shabby... I'm shooting for a 600 lb 1RM dead-lift by the end of this year. Then maybe I'll try to put on some size.
    - Jacob
    - Out of the game for a few years... getting back into it to lose some weight.
    - 11/1/11 -- 202 lbs (started 90% Vegetarian diet)
    - 11/25/11 -- 195 lbs
    - 12/8/11 -- 193 lbs
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  29. #29
    Banned waynelucky's Avatar
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    Hi there,

    Great post.

    I myself have four different routines, for each bodypart, and work at each of them for six weeks.

    As most of you know I am HIT person, but looking at my ( lets take legs for example ) 4 routines, it looks like I do, do a bit more volume at times, here s my TUT for the 4 leg routines, I work to failure and have forced and negatives, but the TUT I have put down here is just working to failure without adding the times for forced and negatives.

    This is the TUT, meaning actual time when lifting, when the weight is being moved, I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT REST PERIODS, BUT ACTUAL LIFTING TUT.

    Routine 1. 168 sec. 2 min. 48 sec.
    Routine 2. 218 sec. 3.00 min.
    Routine 3. 276 sec. 4 min. 36 sec.
    Routine 4. 390 sec. 6 min. 30 sec.

    I wonder if anyone will be honest and put their TUT in, and for anyone wanting to lie, if you put a higher time in than me it will not make you more macho, but a pure nob, as I could squat with only bodyweight and could do it for 15 min. or more, see my point ???

    Thank you Wayne
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    Bump! Time to start bumping all the good threads again...
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