Mike Mahler - Getting Big & Strong On A Vegan Diet!

[webmaster]

I have the strength and size to back up the fact that you can get strong and have a muscular body on a vegan diet. In this article I am going to discuss why I became a vegan and then go into how to plan your diet to pack on some muscle and increase strength.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/mahler53.htm

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I read your article with interest and congratulate you on being able to improve your fitness level. Please don't consider that being a vegan is not detrimental to animals we share the planet with. Many acres of marginal land are put into crop, vegetable and other non animal production to produce food. This marginal land can be utilised by wildlife as well as humanely raising livestock on "non factory Farms". Marginal land that could be used by wildlife is gone and where do these animals go. They die off even more miserable deaths by starvation or by living in or near populated areas and die because they are treated as pests, usually by poisoning or shooting.

I hope that while you are enjoying your excercise routines that your footwear is not leather and your clothing is not made of wool or any other material that has caused animal suffering in any way(nylon, rayon, etc). Is that not hypocritical.

I do not believe animals lead any more miserable lives than any other animal. In fact they don't have the stress of possibly being eaten by other animals, do not, or should not be exposed to parasites or starvation. If animals on farms were as miserable as you have made us believe they would not thrive or reproduce efficiently. If animals are like humans when you are sick or miserable or extremely stressed do you gain muscle and grow? Do you feel like reproducing? I doubt it.

Peoples perceptions of animals living miserable lives, is this based on perception? Did you hear someone say they were, or have you done effective and actual research into the physiology and psychology of these animals you mention.

I have enjoyed reading your articles in the past and valued what you have shared with us. Unfortunately by some of your comments I am not confident in your credibility by some of your assessments. The choice is yours to make and I value the right to choose. I would hate to think that being a vegan does not impact animals in some way negatively because it does in everything humans do. Wood, metals, plastics, all are out there in the environment that will make an animal miserable one way or the other. Cities are built on the ground the very animals you mention had once lived.

Am I to believe by your article that our nations livestock, poultry and dairy producers enjoy seeing their animals live miserable lives and do not value or respect these creatures. I eat meat and I also eat a lot of vegetables, does anyone have a concern with how that food is produced? The animals lives you saved were lost by another animal, inhumanely, when the land it was living on was converted to producing food for your lifestyle choice as well as mine. It may be only suited to grazing animals or give it back to the wildlife.

I am a body builder. I am also a livestock producer. There are a lot of comments regarding bodybuilders that are false and incorrect, and we all hate those inaccurate assessments. Are you absolutely sure your comments are correct about how animals are raised? On both topics there are those who lower their morales and make it bad for everyone else and they definitely should be punished, harshly.

Enough said. My best wishes. I am sure there are many that are interested in your your ability to make gains in your fitness level by choosing this lifestyle.

Can human digest fibres? Can we eat grass? No, we are not cows or horeses. We are omnivores. We were born to eat meats, vegetables and fruits. Taking out meats from complete diet is unnatural. Talking about history, we had been hunting animals for millions of years before agriculture was invented. Our ancestors changed their diet to mostly meats and got bigger bodies, including brains, as well as better strength and energy such that they could develop language and culture. Animal protein is good, and abnormally high carbs from farming products - cane sugar, cereal and fruits - causes obesity, diabetes, hypertension and heart attack. Vegans look ill. Vegans look even worse than beggers. Vegans are pointless.

Gorillas are vegans and they are super strong. If we only knew how...

[Mike Mahler]

Unregistered,

Interesting point. BTW, I do not weat leather or wool, thanks for bringing that point up and I forgot to include that in the article.

I have been to many factory farms and the animals certainly do not look like they have good lives. Would you enjoy living in a crate without any fresh air or mobility for your life? Please, the illusion that animals have nice lifes on family farms and die peaceful deaths is over. That is very rare for most animals, especially the ones that end up in supermarkets for people to purchase.

Sure, just by me living, animals are dying. That is an undeniable fact of this world. Also, I do have respect for people that hunt for their own meat and take a part in the process of the kill. At least the know what they are doing and the sacrfice that is being made. I just do not like the way animals are mass produced and treated on factory farms.

I am sorry if you lost some respect for me. However, I am not a politician that tries to please everyone. I have strong beliefs that I stand up for.

Mike Mahler

[lucubration]

How many calories is that Mike?

You must have a very low metalobism?

[NicktheRoofer]

Since when does someone have to be absolutely sure about anything? There are no absolutes in life. As long as one feels like hes contributing. I mean seriously, if someone wanted to take NO-PART in the slaughter of animals and the cause they provide, he mind as well kill himself. I live a vegan lifestyle, and I except the fact that I will cross paths with animals that have died for what I have to do. I believe by not consuming animals, im doing it for my inner strength and spirit.. the outside of me will have to part take, NOTHING can be done about it.

[NicktheRoofer]

Originally posted by lucubration
How many calories is that Mike?

You must have a very low metalobism?

I dont want to totally speak for Mike, but I know he follows his own version of the Warrior Diet.. he gets in most his food at night. When he says some tofu, its probably alot. hope this answers ur Q

[MASSIVEVEGAN]

Originally posted by Meat Eating Man
Can human digest fibres? Can we eat grass? No, we are not cows or horeses. We are omnivores. We were born to eat meats, vegetables and fruits. Taking out meats from complete diet is unnatural. Talking about history, we had been hunting animals for millions of years before agriculture was invented. Our ancestors changed their diet to mostly meats and got bigger bodies, including brains, as well as better strength and energy such that they could develop language and culture. Animal protein is good, and abnormally high carbs from farming products - cane sugar, cereal and fruits - causes obesity, diabetes, hypertension and heart attack. Vegans look ill. Vegans look even worse than beggers. Vegans are pointless.

I dont understand this, you say we have been hunting animals for millions of years before agriculture was invented, then you go on to say that our ancestors changed their diets to mostly meats and got bigger etc... well which one is it? it is true that our ancestors hunted meat b4 there was agriculture, but it was the smaller more intellectual of the species that migrated north and developed agriculture because they could not compete with the carnivores for food. the point i am trying to make is that, it is the vegetarians that have evolved not the carnivores. and furthermore your statement about vegans "looking ill", Mike Mahler doesn't look ill, and myself @ 210 lbs of lean muscle looks far from ill, quite the contrary. And to say that a vegetarian diet causes obesity hypertension and heart attack: my friend you are very misinformed, diets high in soy proteins and organic foods have quite the opposite effects.

[Mike Mahler]

lucubration,

Actually, I have a high metabolism and lose weight very easily. Look at my photos again and you will see that my bodyfat is low. Hardly an indication that my metabolism is slow. I do not count calories.

Mike Mahelr

[Woden]

Originally posted by MASSIVEVEGAN
I dont understand this, you say we have been hunting animals for millions of years before agriculture was invented, then you go on to say that our ancestors changed their diets to mostly meats and got bigger etc... well which one is it? it is true that our ancestors hunted meat b4 there was agriculture, but it was the smaller more intellectual of the species that migrated north and developed agriculture because they could not compete with the carnivores for food. the point i am trying to make is that, it is the vegetarians that have evolved not the carnivores. and furthermore your statement about vegans "looking ill", Mike Mahler doesn't look ill, and myself @ 210 lbs of lean muscle looks far from ill, quite the contrary. And to say that a vegetarian diet causes obesity hypertension and heart attack: my friend you are very misinformed, diets high in soy proteins and organic foods have quite the opposite effects.

Wow, that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have read all week.

Edit: I read it again and decided it was the dumbest thing I have read all month.

[Canarian Roy]

we need saturated fat, zinc, vitamin B12 which its synthethic form is no way near as effective as its natural form (which comes from meat). IMO, a vegan diet will throw the omega 3: omega 6 ratio out of balance, since plants provide mostly omega 6 fats.
I didnt read the whole article, just had a quick skimmed read thru the diet, and all the protein sources come from nuts and seeds if im not mistaken. Unless you take supplementary lysine, you are taking in incomplete protein sources, although I agree with what he says about the crazyness of bodybuilders to take lots of protein, and IMO, its still easy to reach 1 g of protein per pound of lean mass on a vegan diet, but Im still concerned with the missing of lysine, which is a very important amino acid for growth.
I dont agree at all with a vegan diet, and it is not healthier than an omnivore diet, but I respect anyone following a vegan diet or being a long time vegan.
He is also right about the type of training to use, and I like it, because it is very simple, and simple things are what normally work.

[AJbuilder]

Vegan diet or not, Mike has already stated why he chose it.


from that one pic, he looks in terrific shape by going on that diet.

[NicktheRoofer]

Originally posted by Canarian Roy
we need saturated fat, zinc, vitamin B12 which its synthethic form is no way near as effective as its natural form (which comes from meat). IMO, a vegan diet will throw the omega 3: omega 6 ratio out of balance, since plants provide mostly omega 6 fats.
I didnt read the whole article, just had a quick skimmed read thru the diet, and all the protein sources come from nuts and seeds if im not mistaken. Unless you take supplementary lysine, you are taking in incomplete protein sources, although I agree with what he says about the crazyness of bodybuilders to take lots of protein, and IMO, its still easy to reach 1 g of protein per pound of lean mass on a vegan diet, but Im still concerned with the missing of lysine, which is a very important amino acid for growth.
I dont agree at all with a vegan diet, and it is not healthier than an omnivore diet, but I respect anyone following a vegan diet or being a long time vegan.
He is also right about the type of training to use, and I like it, because it is very simple, and simple things are what normally work.

Im sorry, but this article wasnt just made to tell us you can get big on a vegan diet.. but it was also proven, and backed up, that it is definently possible. To me, it wasnt ment to start a veggie-no-muscle rant or fighting debates about being vegetarian, there are tons of other threads for that. To me, it just looks like your justifying something that cant happen, when it already did happen.

[Mike Mahler]

Thanks Nick, you took the words right out of my mouth and you are right as I am not trying to start some forum war. Or maybe I am as it is kind of fun ;-)

I have the results to back up everything that I write about. I also have several clients that have gotten great results with my vegan diet advice.

You can sing all day long about how a vegan diet is deficient in this or that, but the bottom line is I am in shape and that is that.

Mike Mahler
www.mikemahler.com

[NicktheRoofer]

I know Mike, Forum wars do have their moments Hearin someone speak about how his vegan diet really did help him build a great physique is definently a moment to remember!

Yes, you are a saint if you eat no meat!

[NicktheRoofer]

Originally posted by dickless
Yes, you are a saint if you eat no meat!

hey man, no one went there.. so chill. Everyone is the same. Diet doesnt mean much to me (even though I eat pretty good) .. cause if your training isnt in order then you got nothing worth wild. Its all about the hard work you put in.

PS No ones better than anyone just because of the way one eats, thats rubbish man.. where did you get that idea anyways? take care

Nice article Mike, I found it only now via web search.

I'm vegan myself, have been for quite some time, 12 odd years. I started lifting about 4 years ago and went from 150lbs long distance/thai-boxer physique to current 218lbs, all natural, have used creatine sometimes. So it can be done, it has been done and it will be done many times over. It wasn't even hard.

Veganism is a positive choise anyone can do for the environment, against animal cruelty and for fairer global food distribution. I raise my hat to anyone who goes vegetarian/vegan.

Some useful links perhaps:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
http://www.veganbodybuilder.com
http://www.veganfitness.net
http://www.veganoutreach.com

[Ashkon]

Originally posted by Unregistered
Nice article Mike, I found it only now via web search.

I'm vegan myself, have been for quite some time, 12 odd years. I started lifting about 4 years ago and went from 150lbs long distance/thai-boxer physique to current 218lbs, all natural, have used creatine sometimes. So it can be done, it has been done and it will be done many times over. It wasn't even hard.

Veganism is a positive choise anyone can do for the environment, against animal cruelty and for fairer global food distribution. I raise my hat to anyone who goes vegetarian/vegan.

Some useful links perhaps:

http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
http://www.veganbodybuilder.com
http://www.veganfitness.net
http://www.veganoutreach.com

I don't see the reason why humans are so complicated. Sure it may be right to be a veg and save many lives of suffering animals, but then again, who says plants should suffer. I mean they live too. Science clearly claims that plants are well alive. Their cell structure is very similar to ours. So why should they suffer. Just because they don't have a specific look that a man can relate or understand it dosnt mean their dead.
Animals have a look similar to us. That's why we seem to "understand" it. We may look at a chicken: we can see and observe and mentally have an image which we could state as a face, and feel sorry for his head gettn cut off, but not for a faceless silent plant.

I'm not even a veg, but I doin't understand why we should screw up the life cycle. Why hasn't the tigers stopped eatn deers and goats, and why hasnt the sheep stopped the maddness of chewing the poor innocent grass? CRZ world.

[LordNeon]

Originally posted by Mike Mahler

You can sing all day long about how a vegan diet is deficient in this or that, but the bottom line is I am in shape and that is that.

Mike Mahler
www.mikemahler.com

Great response!

[lucubration]

Originally posted by Ashkon
I don't see the reason why humans are so complicated. Sure it may be right to be a veg and save many lives of suffering animals, but then again, who says plants should suffer. I mean they live too. Science clearly claims that plants are well alive. Their cell structure is very similar to ours. So why should they suffer. Just because they don't have a specific look that a man can relate or understand it dosnt mean their dead.

Animals have a look similar to us. That's why we seem to "understand" it. We may look at a chicken: we can see and observe and mentally have an image which we could state as a face, and feel sorry for his head gettn cut off, but not for a faceless silent plant.

agree

I'm not even a veg, but I doin't understand why we should screw up the life cycle. Why hasn't the tigers stopped eatn deers and goats, and why hasnt the sheep stopped the maddness of chewing the poor innocent grass? CRZ world.

the life cycle??? wtf :0

[MASSIVEVEGAN]

Originally posted by Woden
Wow, that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have read all week.

Edit: I read it again and decided it was the dumbest thing I have read all month.

I just saw this, lol...I guess they are not teaching you the evolution theory in high school anymore. What I said was not meant to be taken so literraly. To prove my point however I'll quote Dr. Peter J D'Adamo from his book Live Right For Your Type:

"We are accustomed to picturing the course of human evolution as a straight line, with markers along the way that identify signifigant shifts. Blood type evolution was described in a purposely linear matter, in an effort to comunicate the basic idea. However, we know that the evolutionary peocess is more a loop than a line, more circular than linear, When we talk about O being first, Type A second followed by type B then type AB, we're not descibing a seamless march from hunter to farmer to nomad and beyond. Evolution occurs on an invisible ladscape, the actual process taking eons. The refinements in our species and the many subspecies are the hammer of the enviornmental demands arriving with the force of small taps rather than with thundering blows. These refinements have but one purpose...our survival. Today as we arrive at a new century, we have the understanding and the tools to maximize our capacity for survival, using the genetic material that nature has supplied."

So what I said was a basic inference to how modern man evolved and is backed up by well over seventy years on scientific studies.
Do your homework next time before blasting someone, otherwise you may just make yourself look like an ignorant ass.

[Woden]

Originally posted by MASSIVEVEGAN
I just saw this, lol...I guess they are not teaching you the evolution theory in high school anymore. What I said was not meant to be taken so literraly. To prove my point however I'll quote Dr. Peter J D'Adamo from his book Live Right For Your Type:

"We are accustomed to picturing the course of human evolution as a straight line, with markers along the way that identify signifigant shifts. Blood type evolution was described in a purposely linear matter, in an effort to comunicate the basic idea. However, we know that the evolutionary peocess is more a loop than a line, more circular than linear, When we talk about O being first, Type A second followed by type B then type AB, we're not descibing a seamless march from hunter to farmer to nomad and beyond. Evolution occurs on an invisible ladscape, the actual process taking eons. The refinements in our species and the many subspecies are the hammer of the enviornmental demands arriving with the force of small taps rather than with thundering blows. These refinements have but one purpose...our survival. Today as we arrive at a new century, we have the understanding and the tools to maximize our capacity for survival, using the genetic material that nature has supplied."

So what I said was a basic inference to how modern man evolved and is backed up by well over seventy years on scientific studies.
Do your homework next time before blasting someone, otherwise you may just make yourself look like an ignorant ass.

Your writing style is almost non-coherent. Are you actually trying to say that humans evolved to be vegetarians? (I hope so)

I would destroy the points you made in your original post, but I cannot see how this post backs it up at all, so I am confused. Could you please state the point you are trying to make?

[MASSIVEVEGAN]

Originally posted by Woden
Your writing style is almost non-coherent. Are you actually trying to say that humans evolved to be vegetarians? (I hope so)

I would destroy the points you made in your original post, but I cannot see how this post backs it up at all, so I am confused. Could you please state the point you are trying to make?

No I am not saying that every human has evolved or is evolving to become a vegetarian. To make it a little simpler for you; The first humans were hunters and gatherers, their basic diets consisted of animal proteins, these first people all had "O" blood type. As man evolved, more people began to migrated across the land because of lack of food and competition for the foods. they learned how to plant crops and live from plant based proteins. Not only did their lifestyle change over the years so did their blood type. These are Blood type "A" people. From there two more blood types evolved type "B" and type "AB". Now, we modern day humans still carry some of the same genes that our earliest ancestors carried. Hence, Modern day humans with "O" BLood types should Consume mostly foods containing animal based proteins(carnivore). And type "A" humans should consume foods derived mostly from plants(vegetarian) and so on for types "B" and "AB".
I wasn't trying to say that vegetarians are higher on the evolutionary scale, simply that originally all humans were meat eaters and as humans in general evolved we became more diverse in the foods that we eat. Having said that, if we still carry some of the same genes as our ancestors we should follow the same diets of our ancestors, at least to some extent.

[Woden]

"The point i am trying to make is that, it is the vegetarians that have evolved not the carnivores."

"but it was the smaller more intellectual of the species that migrated north and developed agriculture because they could not compete with the carnivores for food"

I hope you see where I got the idea and why i ridiculed it as stupid. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

[MASSIVEVEGAN]

Originally posted by Woden
"The point i am trying to make is that, it is the vegetarians that have evolved not the carnivores."

"but it was the smaller more intellectual of the species that migrated north and developed agriculture because they could not compete with the carnivores for food"

I hope you see where I got the idea and why i ridiculed it as stupid. I apologize for the misunderstanding.

yeah bro NBD my first post was a bit of a stretch, I can see how that could be taken totally out of context...my bad

This is a very long reply, I had allot to say so just wanted to let you know before you start reading...

I stumbled upon this discussion board looking for information on vegetarian bodybuilding. I'm finding this discussion controversial, but also interesting. I wanted to give my opinions. There are so many pro's and con's to both sides, it can be very confusing for people. I've been into health and fitness for over 15 years. I've done allot of research on this and many other subjects. For about 7 years of my life I was a vegan. I grew up as a kid eating the standard american diet (SAD) like so many of us did. Fried chicken, pork ribs, meat loaf, eggs, sausage and bacon, milk, cheeses. Although as a young kid, I ate a diet rich in these saturated fat foods, I was always healthy, looked healthy. Later, during the time I was a vegetarian, I was also very healthy and looked healthy, but just much leaner. As with any nutrition plan you must take complete charge of your diet and make sure you are getting complete nutrition, including protein and enough calories each day. Most of the vegetarian food that is dense in nutrition, like dark green vegetables, are also low in calories. As a vegetarian, It's extremely easy to be very healthy inside but look very gaunt on the outside. (being too under weight is not healthy either) The reason why so many vegetarians and vegans look sickly, is because they don't eat enough calories and don't work out to build muscle. And to be honest with you, many of the gaunt looking vegetarians, are not really monitoring their nutrition intake. However, some get allot of healthy micro nutrients but not enough macro nutrients like carbs, protein and fats and overall calories. As we have seen here with Mike Mahler, and many other vegetarian fitness enthusiasts, it's possible to be healthy, fit, and strong on a vegetarian diet with proper exercise, weight training and monitoring diet. We shouldn't judge vegetarian bodybuilding as a whole by a few vegetarians who don't eat enough calories, get proper nutrition and don't work out. By the same token, we shouldn't assume that somone who is big and strong on the outside is healthy on the inside. Our bodies are meant to survive, and they will take allot of punishment before we start to see signs. Chances are we won't see the long-term effects of a dietary lifestyle until we are in our later years. By then it's too late to turn back the clock. I've seen allot of photos of 50+ year old vegetarian and die-hard meat eaters. Almost every vegetarian as they get older looked 10 to 20+ years younger than their chronological age. Genetics play are major role that is true, but there is actually scientific research to help explain why that might be. It's long and complicated, but basically the same process that browns a chicken in the oven, creates grill marks on a beef steak, or sun-damaged wrinkled skin is called glycation. This cross-linking of sugar and protein molecules creates insoluble masses that generate free-radicals. These masses called Advanced Glycation End products (A.G.E.'s) or "Glycotoxins" accumulates in our collagen, skin, brain, nervous system, arteries, ect. So probably because vegetarians eat allot of raw foods like salads and vegetables, lowers the amount of excess glycotoxins in their body. The high fiber content flushes out the body. In addition, the high amount of enzymes, antioxidants, and micro nutrients in fresh fruits and vegetables probably combats excess damage done by other free-radicals. Someone mentioned on here about our ancestors. Before there was fire, our ancestors ate everything raw, including meat. (I don't recommend that these days). However, high temperature cooking destroys many things in our food including nutrients and especially enzymes in food that help digest and absorb the food we eat. Not only that, but when our ancestors ate a vegetable from the earth, there was some dirt left on it, with soil organisms and trace minerals from nutrient rich earth. (I don't recommend eating unwashed vegetables these days either). Our diets today are so different from our ancestors, but that's part of evolution. Take for example animal / vegan debate: Animals that graze on pastures eat allot of nutrient dense grasses. These nutrients such as CLA for one, are absorbed into their blood, flesh and fat. When we eat these animals with a little of the fat, we also absorb these nutrients and provide our bodies with a wide range of nutrients at one time. Not to mention a complete amino acid profile and a useable form of iron. On the negative side, a high meat based diet contributes faster to the aging process through glycation. Also, today's cattle are pumped up with antibiotics and hormones. Many use pesticides not only on the pastures, but on the animals themselves to control flies. They are crammed in stalls, many in unhealthy conditions. The highly profitable commercial cattle industry has been using ground up animal parts for years in feed. For more information on this subject go to: www.madcowboy.com. If you are going to eat meat I recommend buying your meat from an organic farm where the cattle graze on pastures and not fed on grains. Check out: www.eatwild.com for more information. As far as a vegetarian diet is concerned, when we eat a wide range of vegetables, plants and grasses, and sprouts, nuts, seeds, legumes, we take in directly the nutrients from these plants. However, unlike a meat eaters diet, where you can get a wide range of nutrition and complete protein at one time, vegetarians must consume a wide range of vegetables on a constant basis to make sure they are getting complete and proper nutrition. This requires allot more thinking and preparation. Vegetarians should be taking a multi vitamin supplement just to make sure they are not missing anything. Also like the meat industry, vegetables today are full of pesticides and chemicals. run-off from factories that get into the soil. Now with genetically modified plants (GM), there is a question about what these do to our bodies in the long-term. Grocery stores are not bound legally to inform you that produce is genetically modified or not. You will only know if they say it's not. If you are going to be a vegan or vegetarian, I would recommend buying only certified organic, non-GMO vegetables. (This is not a perfect solution but it helps) On a positive note, A vegetarian diet has proven to slow the aging process, lower heart disease, and other diseases, increase energy, and provide a wide range of nutrients. Now, I'm not advocating anyone should eliminate animal products from their diet, or become a vegetarian. I think everyone should do what works best for their conscience and well-being. The main thing to remember is knowing the facts about any particular lifestyle and doing everything it takes to be healthy within that lifestyle. We tend to get so wrapped up in a particular way of thinking that we block out any other point of view and we become defensive and this leads to denial. I think bodybuilding is not just about looking good, it's about staying fit and healthy for life.

[Woden]

Originally posted by Unregistered
This is a very long reply, I had allot to say so just wanted to let you know before you start reading...

I stumbled upon this discussion board looking for information on vegetarian bodybuilding. I'm finding this discussion controversial, but also interesting. I wanted to give my opinions. There are so many pro's and con's to both sides, it can be very confusing for people. I've been into health and fitness for over 15 years. I've done allot of research on this and many other subjects. For about 7 years of my life I was a vegan. I grew up as a kid eating the standard american diet (SAD) like so many of us did. Fried chicken, pork ribs, meat loaf, eggs, sausage and bacon, milk, cheeses. Although as a young kid, I ate a diet rich in these saturated fat foods, I was always healthy, looked healthy. Later, during the time I was a vegetarian, I was also very healthy and looked healthy, but just much leaner. As with any nutrition plan you must take complete charge of your diet and make sure you are getting complete nutrition, including protein and enough calories each day. Most of the vegetarian food that is dense in nutrition, like dark green vegetables, are also low in calories. As a vegetarian, It's extremely easy to be very healthy inside but look very gaunt on the outside. (being too under weight is not healthy either) The reason why so many vegetarians and vegans look sickly, is because they don't eat enough calories and don't work out to build muscle. And to be honest with you, many of the gaunt looking vegetarians, are not really monitoring their nutrition intake. However, some get allot of healthy micro nutrients but not enough macro nutrients like carbs, protein and fats and overall calories. As we have seen here with Mike Mahler, and many other vegetarian fitness enthusiasts, it's possible to be healthy, fit, and strong on a vegetarian diet with proper exercise, weight training and monitoring diet. We shouldn't judge vegetarian bodybuilding as a whole by a few vegetarians who don't eat enough calories, get proper nutrition and don't work out. By the same token, we shouldn't assume that somone who is big and strong on the outside is healthy on the inside. Our bodies are meant to survive, and they will take allot of punishment before we start to see signs. Chances are we won't see the long-term effects of a dietary lifestyle until we are in our later years. By then it's too late to turn back the clock. I've seen allot of photos of 50+ year old vegetarian and die-hard meat eaters. Almost every vegetarian as they get older looked 10 to 20+ years younger than their chronological age. Genetics play are major role that is true, but there is actually scientific research to help explain why that might be. It's long and complicated, but basically the same process that browns a chicken in the oven, creates grill marks on a beef steak, or sun-damaged wrinkled skin is called glycation. This cross-linking of sugar and protein molecules creates insoluble masses that generate free-radicals. These masses called Advanced Glycation End products (A.G.E.'s) or "Glycotoxins" accumulates in our collagen, skin, brain, nervous system, arteries, ect. So probably because vegetarians eat allot of raw foods like salads and vegetables, lowers the amount of excess glycotoxins in their body. The high fiber content flushes out the body. In addition, the high amount of enzymes, antioxidants, and micro nutrients in fresh fruits and vegetables probably combats excess damage done by other free-radicals. Someone mentioned on here about our ancestors. Before there was fire, our ancestors ate everything raw, including meat. (I don't recommend that these days). However, high temperature cooking destroys many things in our food including nutrients and especially enzymes in food that help digest and absorb the food we eat. Not only that, but when our ancestors ate a vegetable from the earth, there was some dirt left on it, with soil organisms and trace minerals from nutrient rich earth. (I don't recommend eating unwashed vegetables these days either). Our diets today are so different from our ancestors, but that's part of evolution. Take for example animal / vegan debate: Animals that graze on pastures eat allot of nutrient dense grasses. These nutrients such as CLA for one, are absorbed into their blood, flesh and fat. When we eat these animals with a little of the fat, we also absorb these nutrients and provide our bodies with a wide range of nutrients at one time. Not to mention a complete amino acid profile and a useable form of iron. On the negative side, a high meat based diet contributes faster to the aging process through glycation. Also, today's cattle are pumped up with antibiotics and hormones. Many use pesticides not only on the pastures, but on the animals themselves to control flies. They are crammed in stalls, many in unhealthy conditions. The highly profitable commercial cattle industry has been using ground up animal parts for years in feed. For more information on this subject go to: www.madcowboy.com. If you are going to eat meat I recommend buying your meat from an organic farm where the cattle graze on pastures and not fed on grains. Check out: www.eatwild.com for more information. As far as a vegetarian diet is concerned, when we eat a wide range of vegetables, plants and grasses, and sprouts, nuts, seeds, legumes, we take in directly the nutrients from these plants. However, unlike a meat eaters diet, where you can get a wide range of nutrition and complete protein at one time, vegetarians must consume a wide range of vegetables on a constant basis to make sure they are getting complete and proper nutrition. This requires allot more thinking and preparation. Vegetarians should be taking a multi vitamin supplement just to make sure they are not missing anything. Also like the meat industry, vegetables today are full of pesticides and chemicals. run-off from factories that get into the soil. Now with genetically modified plants (GM), there is a question about what these do to our bodies in the long-term. Grocery stores are not bound legally to inform you that produce is genetically modified or not. You will only know if they say it's not. If you are going to be a vegan or vegetarian, I would recommend buying only certified organic, non-GMO vegetables. (This is not a perfect solution but it helps) On a positive note, A vegetarian diet has proven to slow the aging process, lower heart disease, and other diseases, increase energy, and provide a wide range of nutrients. Now, I'm not advocating anyone should eliminate animal products from their diet, or become a vegetarian. I think everyone should do what works best for their conscience and well-being. The main thing to remember is knowing the facts about any particular lifestyle and doing everything it takes to be healthy within that lifestyle. We tend to get so wrapped up in a particular way of thinking that we block out any other point of view and we become defensive and this leads to denial. I think bodybuilding is not just about looking good, it's about staying fit and healthy for life.

I think that the most healthy diet is a balanced diet of meat and raw foods. However, I must give you a big BUMP on parts of your post.

Eskimos kill a walrus, cut it open, and start eating it there, no cooking at all. Unregistered posted about how cooking meat harms you, I would also like to add that if you cook meat, and burn any of it, then you are also creating carcinogens. I believe every humans digestive system could adapt to eating raw meat over time. It was only around 80,000 years ago (educated guess), that we still ate raw meat, that is not enough time for our bodies to lose the capability.

I am a avid meat eater (I eat mostly beef from my grandfathers family farm, the cows there are hormone free, almost anti-biotic free, and live a good life before they get a humane ending) and I like meat barely cooked. Rare steak is the best. I wouldn't mind finding a source of meat that I could be pretty sure was safe and eating it mostly raw, the only problem would be parasites...

Woden I'd like to add...

Read more about what you wrote go to this site:

http://www.wysong.net/controversies/rawmeat.shtml

Scroll down to the topic titled:
A Lesson from the Eskimos_________________________________________
Dr. R.L. Wysong

The whole webiste is interesting too.