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Old 01-15-2004, 03:39 PM   #1
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Jesse Bushman - Lifting And Spirituality!

The one thing that I might add is that I believe that how we grow when we lift, parallels how we grow spiritually. Learn why I think this and how they correlate with each other...

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/liftingspirit.htm

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Old 01-20-2004, 04:33 PM   #2
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Good article

I go to church when I can. I was thinking you were going to bring a religious experience into your post as an example of growing spiritually. I believe in the phrase "my body is my temple..." and I was looking for ways to mentor youths about being 1 under God and building their bodies/temples through lifting. I see it as some what of a gift to God. By building your body/temple you are not only thanking him for the physical being that he gave you, but you are also creating a powerful temple in which your soul can praise him. Good article. Please expand on your thoughts.

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Old 01-21-2004, 11:00 AM   #3
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Question

Many of the articles on bodybuilding.com make claims about training techniques or supplements and the best ones site experiments and trials that provide evidence that validate their claims.

You claim the existence of something called a 'spirit' and describe it as physical, but you do not offer any verifiable research or studies that support your claim. In fact, you do not even offer a precise definition of 'spirit'. Similarly you claim the existence of something called a 'god' and provide no definition or evidence supporting this claim either.

Until you can precisely define a 'spirit' and a 'god' and site verifiable experiments then your article is at best anecdotal and at worst pure speculation. What benefits you attribute to 'spirits' and 'gods' may be explained by other, verifiable, natural (as opposed to supernatural) means.
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Old 01-21-2004, 01:09 PM   #4
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Your point about making unsupported claims is well taken and a valid one. I have, as you point out, not provided any proof of my impressions or beliefs. Over the years, I have come to accept as true or correct, certain impressions or flashes of thought that come to me in a manner that I experience as extra-personal, meaning, not dependent upon a logical deduction on my part, unlooked for, unanticipated.

Call it intuition, inspiration or revelation. It's a subjective experience, as I noted in the article and as such is susceptible of criticism and doubt both by myself, and by any other party, but I find myself persisting in accepting such experiences as valid contacts with something beyond myself.

As far as "proving" such an experience, I don't think that I could, in the same way that I cannot "prove" an emotion to you, as the feeling or internal state is not directly transferable to another individual and is only (imperfectly) available to anyone else insofar as I am able to describe it verbally. Although I suppose one can track how emotions affect us physiologically and thus "prove" them to be manifestations of a biochemical state of affairs. I am not a psychobiologist and don't have enough expertise to say much of value on that topic.

In any case, accepting the premise that I will prove nothing, I may at least be able to explain my thinking.

I accept the existence of a spiritual aspect of our being for several reasons. I was raised in a religious environment and continue to be fairly active in the church that I attend. So, it would be entirely accurate to dismiss my thinking simply by saying that I accept that premise from habit, or from being inculcated with it. It makes me comfortable. There are other reasons, however, that I persist in believing in a spirit.
I have met more than a half dozen people who have had near death experiences, whose perception of that event was that their spirit separated from their physically apprehensible self. As a result, they came away accepting the idea of a spiritual aspect of our being. In fact, arguing about it with them seems tantamount to discussing whether or not their right arm exists and is attached to their bodies. It's simply pointless. (See http://www.near-death.com/ if you're curious about these experiences).


In addition to my discussions with these individuals, several personal experiences have solidified my own belief in a spirit. Those experiences, though, were spontaneous and not something that I can "prove" by repetition, but they are the core of why I believe in a spiritual aspect of our being. If you're interested in a more detailed discussion of spiritual experience, take a look at William James' classic book "The Varieties of Religious Experience." James generally takes the stance that there are enough people reporting experiences with enough parallels that there is possibly something to what the prophets/mystics/visionaries say. In any case, this is a topic that won't be settled with two paragraphs of text (or a small library's worth, for that matter).


With regard to the nature of the spiritual aspect of ourselves, my thinking about that is highly informed by my religious tradition. I trust the ideas expressed about the nature of spirit because I have found other ideas expressed within the accepted theology of that tradition to be true. Within that tradition, the concept of a spirit is that it is made up of "matter" that is not apprehensible to our physical eyes (light, as it were), that it has agency, i.e., that it can make morally significant choices, that it is capable of growing or increasing in "size" (size being relative amount of light, as I understand it).


If you talk to any physicist, they'll tell you that the bulk of mass/energy in the universe is not physically apprehensible. Just for example, the residual radiant energy from the big bang literally fills our entire universe with light. We are awash in wavelengths that are beyond our physical capacity to see (check out NASA's site http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/ for images of that light and John Mather's book, "The Very First Light" for some interesting background.) It is also commonly accepted (based on mathematics that are way over my head) that there are states of mass/energy that are beyond the ability of any of our current instruments to measure or even detect. Some interesting books for the lay reader on that topic are:

"Just Six Numbers : The Deep Forces that Shape the Universe," by Martin Rees; "The Elegant Universe," by Brian Greene (my personal favorite); "The Bigger Bang," by James Lidsey; "Atom : An Odyssey from the Big Bang to Life on Earth ... and Beyond," by Lawrence Maxwell Krauss; "The Universe in a Nutshell," by Stephen Hawking.

In any case, given that the way we perceive the universe with our physical selves, including our perception of mass/energy, space and time, is just plain wrong, I don't find it that large a leap to believe in something that I cannot at the moment see, particularly when coupled with what I discussed above.
As for my accepting the existence of God, that is even more subjective than my reasons for belief in a spiritual aspect to humanity. Suffice it to say that various experiences have left me thoroughly convinced that God exists, is aware of us and loves us.

If you want philosophical arguments, I suppose you could read up on St. Anselm's proof, the argument from design and the various discussions of free will and the problem of evil ("Evil and the God of Love," by John Hick is a pretty good read). In the end, though, although I find them interesting, the philosophical arguments are not satisfying to me. I rely more on what I feel. Not much good for convincing anyone else, but not illogical either, I think. I can't pass on to you, for example, my relationship with my best friend. You have to build that on your own; get oil in your own lamp, as it were.


So, what does this very long-winded meandering have to do with bodybuilding?
The ideas I've discussed above had been kicking around in my head for a good while when I had the experience on my bike ride, as previously described. In a word, engaging in physical training modified my understanding of what I accept as the spiritual side of my being, as I explained in that first post. It put me in a position to grasp, intuitively, something about myself that I otherwise believe I would not have been open to.


You are, of course, entirely free to dismiss everything I've said as unsupported hogwash. But I am curious to see whether my unsupported hogwash resonates with anyone else out there.

Last edited by webmaster; 01-21-2004 at 01:46 PM.
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Old 06-01-2005, 01:02 PM   #5
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Spiritbuilding?

It has been several months since you responded. I suffer from a syndrome probably common to materialists, if it's out of site, it's out of mind <grin> You have obviously given this matter some serious thought and are well read. Two things still trouble me about the article. You still have not defined 'spirit'. Before you can discuss proving the existence of something you have to define what that something is and what it is not. In your response you skipped defining 'spirit' except to weave around and say that it and your perception ( or conception ) of it is subjective and personal. This brings me to ask, if ineffability is the only definitive attribute you can assign to 'spirit' then why write an article about it? I'm also curious why you would assume that these flashes of insight or inspiration (hmm, there's that spirit word again) are, "valid contacts with something beyond myself." Why not assume that they are created from some part of your brain ( or mind, if you prefer ) upon which you were not focused? It is the same organ, after all, that controlled your heart, lungs and even, to some degree I bet, your feet and legs without your conscious focus. For more insight into this human impulse to assign an external volition to unconscious thoughts you may want to add a couple more books to your reading list. My favorite on this subject is Julian James, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind". James presents evidence to support the idea that humanity's perception of the divine is a byproduct of a time when the two halves of the human brain were not as well connected as they have evolved to be. Another good read is Ernest Jones, "The Life and Works of Sigmund Freud". As translated by Jones, Freud describes this same tendency as, "an attempt to get control over the sensory world, in which we are placed, by means of the wish-world, which we have developed within as a result of biological and psychological necessities." In other words, looking for self understanding in 'spirituality' may leave you living a lie. As for 'gods' existing, it is entirely up to the individual to believe or not. I choose to live in a world without gods because it is more hopeful and life affirming. I choose to live in a world where innocent children die of diseases or disasters we may one day prevent or cure not where they die at the whim of some invisible bully whose will we can never know, understand or predict.
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Old 06-02-2005, 12:46 AM   #6
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You can't seriously be taking Jaynes's book seriously? Parts of it are interesting but most of it is unsupported crap....how you could possibly use that to support the trend you're taking is beyond me.

Note that he never did get around to the follow up of the book as he promised either...


If you want a more "expansive view" of "Freud, then read his protege Jung, who is more on the "spiritual" track if you will. If you can excuse his...admitted strangeness you can learn alot.

Or for a totally unsane approach start reading about plant based shamanism. Terence McKenna's the Archaic Revival is a good start.
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