Lipoderm-Y, Ab-Solved effectiveness?

[javelin]

I wonder how well would Lipoderm-Y and Ab-Solved would work with low leptin levels, as compared to normal levels?

By the way - is there any way to tell scientifically / experiantially (as opposed to just guess) if your leptin levels are low? Tell-tale signs, blood tests, anything?

Also - do Lipoderm-Y and Ab-Solved work with the same effectiveness with firm bodyfat (feels hard when poked, doesn't spill over the beltline) as with soft bodyfat (feels soft when poked, when moved can wobble around like jello, tends to spill over the beltline and just kinda stick out visually). If's it's equally effective for both - any scientific explanation as to why?

[Tkarrde]

Well, fat loss is generally easier in the presence of 'normal' leptin levels, though in answer to your question, when one is below setpoint, the addition of Lipoderm or Ab-Solved should rekindle previously stalled lipolysis.

So far as subjective ways of analyzing leptin levels, signs that they are low would include: increased and often chronic hunger (food seems as good or better than sex), low energy levels/fatigue and sometimes depression and decreased sex drive. Plateaus in fat loss and increases in muscle loss are also good indicators that you've travelled below your setpoint.

As to firm vs. flabby bodyfat, I am not quite following; the only difference I garner between the two relates to the amount of fat present (more = flabbier).

Still, for most males, Ab-Solved is the superior choice for the midsection (will be excellent at reducing visceral adipose tissue), with Lipoderm-Y being the better option for the reduction of stubborn fat in other areas (chest, thighs, etc).

[dito]

Would Ab Sovled work for someone doing a clean bulk? Or would it act the same as Lipoderm in just keeping more adipose from being added to the area?

[Tkarrde]

Ab-Solved would most certainly be useful at reducing the degree of fat accrual typically experienced when in calorie surplus (via a number of mechanisms--thyroid, PPAR, Glucocorticoid). Anecdotal feedback on AB-Solved has demonstrated this, as it has for FL7.

Here is some of the feedback on each of these, which supports this assertion:

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/feedbac...p?productID=22

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/feedbac...p?productID=15

[dito]

Ahhhh decisions, decisions.... FL7 or Ab Solved. Hmmmm. It seems like FL7 would work better for my situation. What do you think Justin? Maybe I should just PM you.

[Par Deus]

If you have a relatively big waist, I would go with Ab-Solved, otherwise, FL7

[Tkarrde]

Originally posted by Par Deus
If you have a relatively big waist, I would go with Ab-Solved, otherwise, FL7

FL7 is especially preferential if bulking, I might add.

If dieting however, and relatively lean save for that damn midsection fat, opt for Ab-Solved.

So, in this instance, I would probably opt for FL7

[dito]

Im skinny guy with the belly. Midsection is big. Doing Anarchy Stack as we speak. Both of your recomendations were kind of conflicting. Not really but kind of made me more undecided. So for my particular situation what would either of you recommend?

[such a loser yo]

FL7?

[Par Deus]

Are you more concerned about visceral fat or just keeping overall fat gain down?? Ab-Solved for former, FL7 for the latter.

[javelin]

Tkarrde - thanks a lot for the detailed reply, that was exactly what I wanted.

As to types of fat - I know this experientially, I don't know if there is any science behind it. Basically, my bud has fat that sits very firmly in his body, more uniform distribution, so he just kinda looks stocky as opposed to fat. Not much spilling over the belt line either. It's actually almost as hard as muscle when you poke it with a finger, yet it ain't muscle for sure. My midsection fat is more jelly-like, if I walk fast it sort of wobbles, and it clearly hangs over the beltline area, even though it's not that much anymore (I'm about 14% BF). It's really soft if you poke it, almost watery-feeling. I used to have a 46 inch waist, down to 36 now, so loose skin may add to this effect. So - I was wondering if Lipoderm-Y or Ab-Solved would be better for my situation or his. I don't know if any of this makes sense.

Also - I started Lipoderm-Y yesterday, will post the results once done. The tingling sensation is almost unreal, I feel it penetrating like 1-2 inches inside of the application site (subjectively of course, but nevertheless). Is it using a different carrier that One? I liked the lemon smell of One, this one is not very pleasant (minor thing of course, I am not using it as a cologne anyway ;-). Also, this one is not as runny as One (that, I do like), and it leaves a slight film on hands that I can feel when I wash them after the application. The film washes off easily though.

And lastly - since great minds from Avant Labs are answering the questions here - I am seriously eyeing LeptiGen, but what I wonder about there is 5-HTP. Is it safe to take whatever dose of 5-HTP it has with prescription antidepressants (Paxil)? Does LeptiGen have anything else there that has a potential to interfere with an SSRI?

Many thanks for your answers!

[sawastea]

Originally posted by such a loser yo
FL7?

Got the info from 1 fast 400

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

3-Acetyl-7-Oxo DHEA, a safe and natural metabolite of DHEA, is an effective agent in suppressing excesssive cortisol production while also stimulating the thermogenic enzymes of the liver, optimizing thyroid function and increasing BMR (basal metabolic rate). 3-Acetyl-7-Oxo DHEA is a powerful tool for inhibiting fat accrual and achieving a favorable body composition. Its strong anti-catabolic properties and cortisol-blunting effect make FL7 an excellent adjunct for anyone wishing to maintain lean mass while dieting, or when cycling off Prohormones. FL7 provides all of 3-Acetyl-7-Oxo DHEA's metabolic benefits via Avant Labs’ Patent Pending infusion matrix, making it far more potent than its competitors. Each 4 oz bottle contains 3 grams of 7-oxo-DHEA and lasts around 30 days.

Ingredients: Isopropyl alcohol,propylene glycol, octyl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene, 3-acetyl-7-oxo-DHEA, carbomer.

FL7: A Revolution in Fatloss

Well, our new topical fat loss product, FL7 is here. As many figured out, the “7” is for 7-oxo-DHEA (aka “7-keto ™ DHEA), which is the active ingredient. Obviously, 7-oxo-DHEA is nothing new, but as with 4-AD, you take an old, unspectacular ingredient, with poor oral bioavailability, stick it in our miracle gels and Voila’, you have gold.

Let us get right into the science on 7-oxo and FL7. Feedback from our initial beta testers will follow.

Editors Note: 7-oxo has far fewer studies on it than plain DHEA, but it is widely agreed, in the literature, that 7-oxo mediates DHEA’s metabolic effects of interest. Actually, it is likely a metabolite of 7-oxo, as well, which binds to a specific, as of yet undiscovered/uncharacterized receptor, but that is beside the point. The point is, 7-oxo is about 2.5 times as strong as plain DHEA, but without the effects on sex hormones. So, assume this on DHEA studies, unless specifically noted.

FL7 and Glucocorticoids
Cortisol’s role in the body is often greatly misunderstood in the bodybuilding community. To grasp its role in body composition, one needs to understand glucocorticoid biosynthesis/equilibrium. Glucocorticoids exist in humans in two primary forms, the inactive cortisone and the active (and dreaded) cortisol. These exist in the body, in a constant state of flux back and forth, depending on the enzyme situation.

What is of note is that the two isoenzymes that convert one to the other have vastly differing concentrations in different tissues. For example, in adipose tissue, only the first isomer of 11-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (11b-HSD1), is found.

11b-HSD1 generally acts as a reductive enzyme, converting Cortisone to Cortisol – it can also act as a dehydrogenase in other tissue, but in human adipose tissue, it is always oxoreductive in the adipose and liver. Increased activity of this enzyme is implicated in some forms of obesity in both animals and humans.

On the other hand, 11b-HSD2 generally acts as a dehydrogenase, converting cortisol to inactive cortisone. It is not particularly important for our purposed, beyond that, so we will go in no more detail.

Keep the above in the back of your mind, as it is going to have a good deal of significance that we will go into later….

So, what is the point of this?? FL7’s magic ingredient, 7-oxo-DHEA, decreases 11b-HSD activity.


Glucocorticoids and Adipose Tissue
So, how is the cortisol factor related to fat loss? Adipogenesis involves differention of preadipocytes into adipocytes. Cortisol inhibits proliferation of preadipocytes, which tips the balance towards differentiation. In other words, cortisol promotes the formation of new fat cells.

And, as we know, empty adipose cells make wonderful sponges for tryglecerides. In addition to this, all cells in the body turnover, meaning they die and are replaced. If we inhibit the formation of new fat cells (via inhibiting cortisol activity in the fat cell), given that fat cell death remains constant, we would have ourselves a very modest, on-going liposuction effect.


FL7 and Thyroid Activity
In additions to its wonderful effects on cortisol levels in adipose tissue, FL7 promotes lipolysis on another front as well – thyroid activity. DHEA and 7-oxo have been found in some studies to increase t3 levels in animals and humans. However, its primary action, in this regard, is to potentiate the effect of t3.

Two of the primary markers of thyroid induced thermogenesis are malic enzyme and glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase (GPD). Guess what else has been found to increase these enzymes….??? Yep, 7-oxo.

It has been postulated that 7-oxo’s effects on thyroid occur only in the liver, thus arguing against transdermal usage. However, injections of DHEA (which would also bypass the liver) were found to increase malic enzyme activity in the liver 9 fold in just one week (interestingly, levels had not yet peaked at this point), the same increase produced by t3.

Also of interest, thyroid hormone was required for DHEA’s increase in malic enzyme activity, indicate that it potentiates t3 rather than increasing levels. So, please do be quite careful if you intend to use thyroid medications and FL7 concurrently.


FL7's Advantages vs. Oral
That is all well and good, but why not just take it orally?? There are two primary (and significant) reasons:

Number one is increased bioavailability. You get far more 7-oxo in your system, mg/mg than with oral. I'm sure our gel's reputation for improving the efficacy of steroids versus oral usage (i.e. ONE+. ONE, 4-ADerm) should be all most of you need to know.... well, at least until I get the real data up in a few hours.

Remember when I said to keep the 11b-HSD isoenzyme situation in the back of your mind??? Well, that is the second thing. With oral usage, we suppress 11b-HSD one activity in the liver.

This increases dehydrogenase activity in the body, lowering systemic cortisol (good right?? Nope.), which will increase ACTH activity in response, to try to keep cortisol elevated. And, with 11b-HSD1 suppressed, this newly released cortisol gets sent down the cortisone side of the isoenzyme equilibrium.

WTF does this mean??? There will be an increase in systemic corticosterone to serve as substrate for formation of the dreaded cortisol in the oxoreductase-only adipose tissue. Oh, and did I mention that obese people are already prone to this phenomenon because of increased peripheral levels of 11b-hsd1 and 5-alpha reductase (which also deactivates cortisol).

[Tkarrde]

Originally posted by javelin
1. So - I was wondering if Lipoderm-Y or Ab-Solved would be better for my situation or his. I don't know if any of this makes sense.

2. Is it using a different carrier that One?

3. And lastly - since great minds from Avant Labs are answering the questions here - I am seriously eyeing LeptiGen, but what I wonder about there is 5-HTP. Is it safe to take whatever dose of 5-HTP it has with prescription antidepressants (Paxil)? Does LeptiGen have anything else there that has a potential to interfere with an SSRI?

Many thanks for your answers!

1. Though Lipoderm will certainly work for you, I think Ab-Solved the better choice given your history.

2. Yes, Lipoderm does indeed use a different carrier then ONE.

3. In all likelihood, the amount of 5-HTP in LeptiGen will not interfere with an SSRI. That said, it would be wise to begin at low dosing (3-4 Teaspoons, as opposed to Tablespoons) to assess tolerance and interaction, and slowly work up to full dosing over the course of a week or so.

[Bond]

So, I guess I should add ab solved to my cutting cycles, and FL7 to my bulking cycles.


I'm still wondering if they really work though.. maybe I should just buy 7-keto....

[Par Deus]

Feedback is collected on our site.

That product write-up has the reason for not just doing it orally, though it is more complicated than that, in my new opinion. There are several studies which suggest that it would not just reduce already low cortisol output from the liver, but that the reduced 7-oxo (7alpha-OH-DHEA) would then have the opposite effect on the 11-beta-HSD enzymes (i.e. shift balance more to reductase activity over dehydrogenase, thus favoring cortisol formation, locally in other tissues, where it causes its problems)

[Bond]

I guess I can I add it to both cutting and bulking cycle since it basically keeps overall fat gain down, right?

Btw, any side effects like strenght loss?

[Tkarrde]

Originally posted by Johnny Bravo 00
I guess I can I add it to both cutting and bulking cycle since it basically keeps overall fat gain down, right?

Btw, any side effects like strenght loss?

Regarding Q#1--yes

Regarding Q#2--no strength loss; the only thing you may notice is an increase in bodyheat and/or sweating (due to thyroid potentiation).

[dito]

Well Im going with Ab Solved. I still think I should get a bottle sent to me and it taken out of Leonard's pay. Since he is the new guy... Then Ill make a thread called Dito's Ab Solved bulk cycle.

[Anabolic]

I know the difference between FL7 and Absolved is that FL7 provides systematic delivery and Absolved provides local delivery but what makes it so?

I've looked them up on M&M and the two products seem very similar. I wish there was a better write-up on both products differentiating them. Perhaps I'm missing something. If so, can someone please point me to the link?

Both products have 3g of 7oxo DHEA @ 50mg per serving. The only difference I see in the ingredients is FL7 has propene glycol and Absolved has benzyl alchohol.

1) Is propene glycol or benzyl alchohol the ingredient that determines if the 7-oxo is absorbed systematically or locally?

I've put in my order for Absolved at 1 fast and would like to educate myself more before I start using it.

2) Can it be used on the face? I read that fat accumulation on the face is the result of cortisol. Is this true?

3) I'm on 5mg ED fluoxotine. Will Absolved have any interactions?

Thanks.

[Dante B.]

A small difference may be all the difference that's needed.

2) Yes, although if I were going to use this for such a purpose, I'd test a very small area. Irritation is possible.

3) Nothing directly or indirectly that I know of, but I could be wrong (Prozac, for anyone who may know something more).

[Anabolic]

Thanks Dante.

Do you think face fat is a result of cortisol too?

[Dante B.]

Originally posted by Anabolic
Thanks Dante.

Do you think face fat is a result of cortisol too?

Yes, it can be, elevated levels of cortisol leading to fat deposits in the face, stomach and upper back.