"Higher water intake" reducing creatine bloat: science behind that claim?

[frederickson]

Numerous threads on this board have mentioned that drinking more water usually helps reduce creatine bloat... Has there ever been a study to back this up? Or just anecdotal evidence? I'm not sure I understand the science behind this claim.

Before anyone hops in with "there is no bloat from creatine" it's just poor diet, etc... I can tell you first hand that is NOT true for everybody. My diet is always on point, and has not changed a bit since I've gone back on creatine.

Even though I have not had any bodyfat increase (still at about 12% bf), my face looks puffy as hell. I can PM pictures to any non-believers. The puffiness in my face is noticeable.

Not hating on creatine though, I have taken it in the past and always add strength and size and never gained any bodyfat. I just want to know how water could decrease the bloat in my face?

[OneBetter]

lol most people agree that creatine bloat can be common occurrence.

that seems odd that your face is puffy, as creatine usually sits outside muscle cells. but there's obviously muscles in your face, so then again i guess it happens.

i thought it that increasing your water uptake decreased bloat because creatine draws water from muscle cells, which is a cause for the bloating. then by drinking more water and replacing more of the water your muscles won't look as "flat".

just wondering, how long have you been on it, what dose, and is it micronized?

[Boiler23]

Originally Posted by frederickson

Numerous threads on this board have mentioned that drinking more water usually helps reduce creatine bloat... Has there ever been a study to back this up? Or just anecdotal evidence? I'm not sure I understand the science behind this claim.

Before anyone hops in with "there is no bloat from creatine" it's just poor diet, etc... I can tell you first hand that is NOT true for everybody. My diet is always on point, and has not changed a bit since I've gone back on creatine.

Even though I have not had any bodyfat increase (still at about 12% bf), my face looks puffy as hell. I can PM pictures to any non-believers. The puffiness in my face is noticeable.

Not hating on creatine though, I have taken it in the past and always add strength and size and never gained any bodyfat. I just want to know how water could decrease the bloat in my face?

I don't think you will see anyone saying that there is no water retention with creatine supplementation. The water retention is actually benefical towards the more anabolic properties of creatine. Decreased water retention IMO would raise questions as to whether you are actually saturated with creatine. As you mentioned, what you were refering to is (as far as I have seen in the literature) completely anecdotal evidence. If anyone disagrees with this please post the actual study that backs your statement up...

[Boiler23]

Originally Posted by OneBetter

i thought it that increasing your water uptake decreased bloat because creatine draws water from muscle cells, which is a cause for the bloating. then by drinking more water and replacing more of the water your muscles won't look as "flat".

Theres a good study that has confirmed that creatine does not influence extra- nor intra-cellular shifts in water, which includes drwaing water from skeletal muscle. It is simply a cummulative water retention. Here is the abstract listed in pubmed...

J Athl Train. 2003 Mar;38(1):44-50.
Creatine Supplementation Increases Total Body Water Without Altering Fluid Distribution.

* Powers ME,
* Arnold BL,
* Weltman AL,
* Perrin DH,
* Mistry D,
* Kahler DM,
* Kraemer W,
* Volek J.

University of Florida, Gainesville, FL.

OBJECTIVE: To examine the effects of oral creatine (Cr) monohydrate supplementation on muscle Cr concentration, body mass, and total body water (TBW), extracellular water (ECW), and intracellular water (ICW) volumes. DESIGN AND SETTING: After an overnight fast, urinary Cr and creatinine concentrations, muscle Cr concentration, body mass, TBW, ECW, and ICW were measured, and subjects were randomly assigned to either a Cr or a placebo (P) group. The Cr group ingested 25 g/d of Cr for 7 days (loading phase) and 5 g/d for the remaining 21 days (maintenance phase), whereas the P group ingested a sucrose P using the same protocol. All the measures were reassessed immediately after the loading and maintenance phases. SUBJECTS: Sixteen men (age = 22.8 +/- 3.01 years, height = 179.8 +/- 7.1 cm, body mass = 84.8 +/- 11.2 kg) and 16 women (age = 21.8 +/- 2.51 years, height = 163.4 +/- 5.9 cm, body mass = 63.6 +/- 14.0 kg) involved in resistance training volunteered to participate in this study. MEASUREMENTS: Muscle Cr concentration was determined from the vastus lateralis muscle using a percutaneous needle-biopsy technique. Total body water, ECW, and ICW volumes were assessed using deuterium oxide and sodium bromide dilution analyses. RESULTS: The Cr group experienced a significant increase in muscle Cr concentration, body mass, and TBW. The P group experienced a small but significant increase in TBW only. CONCLUSIONS: The Cr supplementation protocol was effective for increasing muscle Cr concentrations, body mass, and TBW; however, fluid distribution was not changed.

[OneBetter]

interesting study.

however there's one thing i don't get, if only total body fluid is influenced, wouldn't that mean that there could be no site specific bloating? and does it mean that the total body water can't be allocated elsewhere in the body?

i only ask because it doesn't mention the results of the intracellular water analysis, other then saying fluid distribution was not changed.

[catfishman]

i may sound stupid but wouldnt having a high water concentration in the body effec the osmotic balance with your red blood cells, this really concerns me as yesterday, i started using xyience the NO and creatine one, and i saw massive effects in the gym i got up to 175lbs on the bench my usual max 150lbs, placebo? perhaps, but i deinatly felt a deifference, i worked harder than i normally do and today i fell no strain or pain in my muscles as i usually do, i think hmb could also have helped with that

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by catfishman

i may sound stupid but wouldnt having a high water concentration in the body effec the osmotic balance with your red blood cells, this really concerns me as yesterday, i started using xyience the NO and creatine one, and i saw massive effects in the gym i got up to 175lbs on the bench my usual max 150lbs, placebo? perhaps, but i deinatly felt a deifference, i worked harder than i normally do and today i fell no strain or pain in my muscles as i usually do, i think hmb could also have helped with that

I recently started on creatine and perhaps its placebo too but I felt the same thing... Not a lot of "pain" in my muscles (its not pain but oh well, for lack of description, you all know what it feels like anyway, and its not the typical burn newbies feel!)...

As far as the water question, I will let you know...


Here is the thing... I would not expect a "shift" in the water from ECW to ICW.. I would also expect an increase in total water. Just as the experiment showed.

Why?

The body has two distincts "compartments" of water. Extra cellular water, includes water in your blood and the water that bathes the cell. You could see this as being the same fluid.

Intracellular water is the water inside your cells. Water inside the cells of your muscles, inside your skin cells, etc.

Right?

Following me?

Now, water can move freely between this two compartments. Solutes (stuff dissolved in water like salts, creatine, proteins) can not.

There is something called osmotic pressure. If there is a lot of salt on one compartment and less water relative to the other, osmotic pressure is increased, and water moves to balance out the concentration of ions.

Thus, if a fluid has a lot of osmotic pressure, it will soak up water from the other compatment.

follow me?

Now, you dump in creatine in the blood. Assuming that its quickly sequestered by muscle cells, then what happens to the osmotic pressure of the cell?

It goes up.

Water has to move into the cell.

From where?

From your blood!!

Thus, after the pressure is balanced out, there is less water in your bloodstream.

At this point thirst centers are triggred in your brain. You drink water.

Once all the water is replaced from the blood, the system is in balance.

This is called volume expansion. Both your ECW and ICW have expanded. There is a net increase in Total Body Water. There is no net shift in water. All is the same as far as water is concerned.

The entire process is a lot more complicated, involving electrochemical gradients (look up Nersnt Equation for those interested), oncotic pressures, and a lot of intracellular transports. But thats it in a nutshell.

Hope this explains your questions.

Interesting discussion... I think creatine supplementation is very good and safe if done properly.

[catfishman]

thanks alot, i am doing a levels in bio, chem and phys, in enlgand we choose 3 or 4 subjects from 16 -18, i am very interested in this sort of thing, but the no feeling after 'pain' is strange, my muscles jus feel moreworn out today, but no strain or pain. Very stange,
the excess water!, does this mean any weight i put on may not be lean muscle mass? this is anoying

[stealth_swimmer]

Originally Posted by reefpicker

I


There is something called osmotic pressure. If there is a lot of salt on one compartment and less water relative to the other, osmotic pressure is increased, and water moves to balance out the concentration of ions.

Thus, if a fluid has a lot of osmotic pressure, it will soak up water from the other compatment.

follow me?

Now, you dump in creatine in the blood. Assuming that its quickly sequestered by muscle cells, then what happens to the osmotic pressure of the cell?

It goes up.

Water has to move into the cell.

From where?

From your blood!!

Thus, after the pressure is balanced out, there is less water in your bloodstream.

At this point thirst centers are triggred in your brain. You drink water.

Once all the water is replaced from the blood, the system is in balance.

This is called volume expansion. Both your ECW and ICW have expanded. [/b]There is a net increase in Total Body Water. There is no net shift in water. All is the same as far as water is concerned.[/b]

The entire process is a lot more complicated, involving electrochemical gradients (look up Nersnt Equation for those interested), oncotic pressures, and a lot of intracellular transports. But thats it in a nutshell.

Hope this explains your questions.

Interesting discussion... I think creatine supplementation is very good and safe if done properly.

That would explain the study saing there was no change in water distribution. The body naturally balances out water distribution to reach equilibrium and maintain homeostasis.

[frederickson]

great discussion, thanks for the replies and research findings...

reefpicker's explanation of the process makes sense, and i agree creatine is generally a great supplement (one of the few supps worth taking imo).

as for my creatine usage, i am taking 5 mg daily of prolab's creapure product. i believe it is indeed micronized. i took creatine back in the late 90's when i was college, and have been back on it for about 6 months. i've noticed a definite boost in strength and size, no bf increase, and a moderate decrease in soreness and recovery time.

so i guess in light of what was said here, bloat in the face alone wouldn't make much sense? since creatine increases total body water retention, regional bloating would not jive with that theory.

i wonder if the way people tend to accumulate noticeable fat in different areas at different rates, people might also retain water in different parts of the body at different rates?

[reefpicker]

Originally Posted by frederickson

so i guess in light of what was said here, bloat in the face alone wouldn't make much sense? since creatine increases total body water retention, regional bloating would not jive with that theory.

i wonder if the way people tend to accumulate noticeable fat in different areas at different rates, people might also retain water in different parts of the body at different rates?

Thanks for reading my explanation LOL I was like.. would they read it???? hehe

LOL It was long...


Anyway, I think that it could actually swell the muscle cells. The experiment that the poster pointed us to, did not mention if they actually measured the size of the cell... or even its net volume...

And I have read papers about creatine where they say that they expect some of the increased weight to be water and that the muscle would swell up to take on the creatine and water...


In wikipedia, this is summarized in the following sentence: "Since body mass gains of about 1 kg (about 2.2 pounds) can occur in a week's time, several studies suggest that the gain is simply due to greater water retention inside the muscle cells" (from their article on Creatine)

Of course, they make it sound like there is a water shift... But you know that this is not true... In any case, at the end of the day, the muscle cell has increased in size after taking that creatine....

So you may have some "bloating", but it is not water "retention"...

Hope it all make sense