5x5 clarrification/major squatting issues

[don666]

I've decided that I want to start using <i>Bill Starr's 5x5 Linear Version for Intermediate Lifters.</i>

As I explained in another thread, I initially had awesome beginner gains in my first year of training but saw very little improvement in my second year. Logically I never felt training a body part once a week was the most effective way of packing on mass. I'm convinced this 5x5 program should take me out of the slump.

I know there is a tonne of info on this board so I'm sorry if I’m asking questions that have been answered 10000 times.

Source: http://www.geocities.com/elitemadcow...Linear_5x5.htm

"<i>You take your current 5 rep maxes (5RM) and work up to them systematically by increasing weights in steady increments over 3-4 weeks.</i>"

What is the main purpose of this? I don't doubt that this is extremely important I just want to understand why this steady increase is necessary opposed to just taking a week off for the body to recover. I only see the initial first few weeks as mentally preparing yourself for weekly improvements. I haven't been able to break my max bench for what seems forever; I just don't understand why building up to a max that can already be reached allows you to break through it.

<i>One of the issues faced by many lifters in programming is dealing with jumps in weight or forced rounding to 5lbs increments (i.e. 2.5lbs plates on an Olympic bar being the smallest standard).</i>

This is indeed an issue. I understand that going up by more than 2.5% is too much and the program won't work properly. I'll look around for the Homebrew Chains or smaller plates but I'm not sure how successful I will be at attaining them. The smallest plates at my gym are 1.25kg (2.8pounds). So technically I could come pretty close to these increments. I doubt having a 1.25kg imbalance between both sides of the bench press is going to make a huge difference. Some sets might be .5kg (1pound) off, however, the idea of being that inconsistent or not precise pisses me off, my question is could I work with those 1.25kg (2.8pound) plates if I absolutely had to?

As far as the idea behind the program goes, they are the only questions I really have. If it weren't for my extremely poor flexibility I’d be ready to rock and roll.

Squats have always been a MAJOR problem for me, it's esp. frustrating when they should be the king exercise and center point of any training program. I literally, can not squat. I can not squat my bodyweight, I can't even reach 90degrees. I can not get past that point without going to my tiptoes. That's not to try and sound like a pansy and put my hands up in the air and give up. I've began doing glute stretches everyday so that one day soon I can squat. As far as I can tell, and as far as I’ve been told its the fact my glutes aren't flexible enough. I have no idea how to construct a flexibility program and I don't particularly have a lot of respect for the "personal trainers" at my gym to ask but I figure performing these 1 or 2 stretches I know on a daily basis is a good starting point. I should also probably point out that I feel a bit of tension in my shins when attempting to squat. Is this something else I should consider?

ANYWAY...so while I'm trying to master a proper back squat I've been doing Bulgarian squats (split squats) with one foot up on a bench and the other one squats then alternating. I manage to do those reasonably well. They have to do until I can ease myself into something better.

So a couple of questions, any specific pointers on how I can improve my flexibility? I know I'm not supposed to "**** with" this program, am I able to do the split squat in this case? Even if I can, how can I create these weekly increments with dumbbells?

<i>The front squat is performed in a similar manner, but the bar is held in the clean position, across the anterior deltoids, not the clavicles. The hands should be slightly wider than shoulder width, and the elbows should be elevated as much as possible. The bar is maintained as high as possible by elevating the elbows. This allows the lifter to maintain a more upright posture, and increases the emphasis on the glutes, while lessening the involvement of the lower back. This exercise may allow a lifter who lacks the flexibility required to perform a full squat achieve a reasonable depth while improving flexibility. The front squat will place far more emphasis on the quadriceps muscles and less recruitment of the hamstrings takes place. 7 (20) When comparing the squat to other exercises, it is important to note that the squat causes less compressive force to the knee joint, and greater hamstring activation, than both the leg press and the leg extension. (21)</i>

Source: http://www.elitefitness.com/forum/sh...&postcount=825

I searched for some demonstrations on-line and couldn't find anything clear. I'm still doubtful that these will allow me to squat.

So there's my plan and my problems. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I plan on continuing an upper/lower split until I can give this my best shot, I'm really enthusiastic to get started on this 5x5 though. Thanks fellas.

[spar]

i feel you're pain. for me i could NOT do deadlifts. it felt so akward and i felt like my back was too tight and i wasn't flexible enough to do it. i just kept practicing the movement every night in the mirror with just body weight.

hang in there and keep doing it in the mirror everynight before bed.

peace.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by don666

I haven't been able to break my max bench for what seems forever; I just don't understand why building up to a max that can already be reached allows you to break through it.

It does work, that much I can tell you. I've heard it compared it to trying to bust down a door - do you have a better chance of doing it if you start standing 6" from it, or if you have a running start of 15 feet? Hokey analogy, but it does describe what tends to work. This also applies to any stalls you have in your progress during the program; the usually effective solution is to reset the weight back a few weeks, and build up momentum again. Many if not most people can bust through at least a few sticking points that way.

Also remember one more thing about week 4 - you're actually setting a new PR that week, even though the final weight was your previous 5RM. Reason? You're doing 4 sets prior to that with increasing weight, so you've fatigued yourself a bit before you hit your previous "absolute" 5RM. Being able to do it when you're a bit tired can be considered a new PR.

<i>One of the issues faced by many lifters in programming is dealing with jumps in weight or forced rounding to 5lbs increments (i.e. 2.5lbs plates on an Olympic bar being the smallest standard).</i>

This is indeed an issue. I understand that going up by more than 2.5% is too much and the program won't work properly. I'll look around for the Homebrew Chains or smaller plates but I'm not sure how successful I will be at attaining them. The smallest plates at my gym are 1.25kg (2.8pounds). So technically I could come pretty close to these increments. I doubt having a 1.25kg imbalance between both sides of the bench press is going to make a huge difference. Some sets might be .5kg (1pound) off, however, the idea of being that inconsistent or not precise pisses me off, my question is could I work with those 1.25kg (2.8pound) plates if I absolutely had to?

The microloading chain solution works - I'ved used it. You can also get nice fractional plates from a number of places - do a search for "Iron Woody" on EBay. He makes a nice one that include pairs of 1, .75, .5, and .25 lb plates.

And plenty of people have done the program rounding off and just using the 2.5 lb weights most gyms have. The only place I think this gets tough is military press, where increases are harder to make.

[James.Unit]

Firstly, by starting your bench off at a weight that you can comfortably do 5 reps for and building up to your 5RM you build momentum. R_graz analogy of the door is cool, and it's right - by resetting your bench back you'll build up momentum and allow yourself to deload slightly so that when you hit a PR in Week 5 you should get it up easily.

Re: squats - with anything less than 100 pounds I can't squat properly either. I need a decent amount of weight on my shoulders to prevent myself leaning forward and my heels elevating...forgive me if this sounds stupid but have you tried squatting with weight? If it still isn't possible without leaning forward, try box squats. They're amazingly good at getting you into the right position, particularly emphasising the butt moving back and down and the knees not moving forward. Start with a relatively high box if flexibility is an issue and work your way down.

Front squats are a great exercise too, they're just tricky to go really heavy on without balancing the bar becoming a major issue, particularly with the cross grip.

[GetStronger]

Originally Posted by r_graz

It does work, that much I can tell you. I've heard it compared it to trying to bust down a door - do you have a better chance of doing it if you start standing 6" from it, or if you have a running start of 15 feet? Hokey analogy, but it does describe what tends to work. This also applies to any stalls you have in your progress during the program; the usually effective solution is to reset the weight back a few weeks, and build up momentum again. Many if not most people can bust through at least a few sticking points that way.

Also remember one more thing about week 4 - you're actually setting a new PR that week, even though the final weight was your previous 5RM. Reason? You're doing 4 sets prior to that with increasing weight, so you've fatigued yourself a bit before you hit your previous "absolute" 5RM. Being able to do it when you're a bit tired can be considered a new PR.


The microloading chain solution works - I'ved used it. You can also get nice fractional plates from a number of places - do a search for "Iron Woody" on EBay. He makes a nice one that include pairs of 1, .75, .5, and .25 lb plates.

And plenty of people have done the program rounding off and just using the 2.5 lb weights most gyms have. The only place I think this gets tough is military press, where increases are harder to make.

As far as weight increases go, can one make progress with 5lbs per week and then when that slows down switch to 2.5lb jumps and then switch to even smaller micros? Or does one need to start with 2.5% right away?

[mjw8204]

Originally Posted by GetStronger

As far as weight increases go, can one make progress with 5lbs per week and then when that slows down switch to 2.5lb jumps and then switch to even smaller micros? Or does one need to start with 2.5% right away?

Do it how you want to. It isn't set in stone. Even Madcow will tell you that. You'll find out soon enough whether it was a good strategy or not.

[GetStronger]

Originally Posted by mjw8204

Do it how you want to. It isn't set in stone. Even Madcow will tell you that. You'll find out soon enough whether it was a good strategy or not.

Well I feel like I can still make 5lb progress, I ended Rippetoe with a little left in me.

Your response sounds intimidating lol, I don't want to be set up to fail!

[don666]

thanks guys, If i round my increments up, is it ok to have a 1.25kg (2.8pound) imbalance? Ie. have an additional 2.8pounds on one side.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by don666

thanks guys, If i round my increments up, is it ok to have a 1.25kg (2.8pound) imbalance? Ie. have an additional 2.8pounds on one side.

Uh, I wouldn't do that. You'd be surprised at how much you can feel even a small inbalance between left and right sides. Plus if you're really pushing your limits (as you invariably will on this program), even greater chance you'll get off-balance and get hurt.

Another microloading idea I've seen are those velcro'd on ankle weights people use for running/walking. If you can a set of 1 pounders, you can attach one to each side of the bar, giving you a 2 lb increment.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by GetStronger

As far as weight increases go, can one make progress with 5lbs per week and then when that slows down switch to 2.5lb jumps and then switch to even smaller micros? Or does one need to start with 2.5% right away?

Isn't this the same question we answered in the thread you started about the 5x5? The answer here is the same - the bigger percentage jumps you make, the sooner you're likely to stall. But as mjw said, it's up to you - only you know what you're capable of.

[GetStronger]

Originally Posted by r_graz

Isn't this the same question we answered in the thread you started about the 5x5? The answer here is the same - the bigger percentage jumps you make, the sooner you're likely to stall. But as mjw said, it's up to you - only you know what you're capable of.

Good point, good point. I know I can probably run a few weeks with 5lb jumps, then I can switch to 2.5lb. I can always get some chains made at Lowes or Home Depot.

R_graz, have you made chains before? I could of sworn I read something that you posted about chains before.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by GetStronger

R_graz, have you made chains before? I could of sworn I read something that you posted about chains before.

Yes. Did them exactly as explained in the link madcow provides in the 5x5 template.

[wh0died]

Pick your toes up. Can't go on your toes if they're not on the ground. Simple solution but try it and if there's still a problem let us know what it is. I doubt it's a flexibility issue. I can't even touch my toes and I can go lower than low. I've posted a video if you do a search.

[don666]

Originally Posted by wh0died

Pick your toes up. Can't go on your toes if they're not on the ground. Simple solution but try it and if there's still a problem let us know what it is. I doubt it's a flexibility issue. I can't even touch my toes and I can go lower than low. I've posted a video if you do a search.

Nah, it's without a shadow of a doubt a flexibility issue. I can squat parrallel if i put my entire body horizontal over my legs, if I'm standing verticle I can hardly move. With or without my toes up.

[don666]

ok i've thought of a better way to describe my problem. If I had a barbell on my back, and I was squatting I would be leaning over my stomach using my back to lift. I can't squat standing upright at this point because I believe it is due to poor flexibility.

My dad's a surfer and has the exact same problem. He can't squat which always made it harder for him to surf in tubes, he can't land flat footed.

any other ideas? I'm busting my ass everyday trying to 'squat', people are amazed when I tell them I literally can't.

ps. I found the boxsquatting helped a little.

pps. I purchased 1pound (0.5kg) weights today. So not all is lost! If I can get these squats down I'd die a happy man.

Thanks guys.

[r_graz]

Originally Posted by don666

ok i've thought of a better way to describe my problem. If I had a barbell on my back, and I was squatting I would be leaning over my stomach using my back to lift. I can't squat standing upright at this point because I believe it is due to poor flexibility.

My dad's a surfer and has the exact same problem. He can't squat which always made it harder for him to surf in tubes, he can't land flat footed.

any other ideas? I'm busting my ass everyday trying to 'squat', people are amazed when I tell them I literally can't.

Yes, you need to work on your flexibility. Sounds like your hamstrings are pretty tight. There are lots of stretches you can do for hamstrings, you might want to look into those, and do them after your general warmup but before you squat. I do some light stretches for the posterior chain during my squat warmups, just to get flexible.

Have you tried adjusting your stance? Some people do better with a wider or narrower stance.

If you had the means to post a youtube video of your squats, I'm sure the really experienced guys here could pinpoint your problems and offer solutions.