In Depth Deadlift Conv / Sumo

shadow5788 · 11-13-2006, 09:52 PM

I concentrate on keeping my back straight my headup and leading with my head it feels as if my whole back is straight and tight yet when I took a video and looked in depth more my back was rounding.

So I did more reading on the deadlift and did everything they said
a.head before ass

b.head up concentrate on back being straight

c.shoulders behind bar (this one feels like it will kill me and I will fall apart 135 is real heavy, almost like the weight is out of my center of gravity.

d.Hips low drive with the legs first

well I was then able to do 135 in perfect form but it felt like 200lbs

it seems that when the back rounds a little bit and I you use less legs meaning ass higher when you lift the weight feels much lighter and I feel more powerfull

So then I tried the sumo lifting style it helped a great deal in keeping my back straight and the weight in my center of gravity but the bottom portion of the lift is pretty easy but the top is hard were the conv is hard at the bottom and easy at the top.

Now for the next question when finding your max do you use the perfect form deadlift of 135 or the 245lb deadlift with less then perfect form.

I viewed tons of youtube deadlifts and so many people round their backs even pics of people in meets.

does the judge count a lift if the back rounds or the form is bad.

Another question how do you put the barbell down do you almost drop it and go down with it, that doesn't seem safe

the way I do it now my back rounds the most on the way down.

I want to do this correct and safe please vet members help me out.

my deadlift video (not sure of the weight in video but between 155 and 185

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_TgpjNyV0

Other useful info: I use the 10x3 workout for deadlifts and reset the weight all the way down for each rep.

Stats
Height:6ft
Weight:143LBS
Benchpress 1rep 220lbs 5 rep 185lbs
Squat-Full Squat -165 for 1 150 for 5 -Below parallel
Squat-To the bench 200lbs for 5 Reps
Deadlift In current not so great form 245 For 1
Overhead Military Press 100lbs
Bicep Curl perfect form 100lbs for 1 rep

tbush · 11-14-2006, 12:31 AM

at least you aren't dead lifting like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSvaU...elated&search=

the one thing i concentrated on that i feel helped me was making sure my shoulders and my ass always moved together at the beginning. In your video your hips begin to move before your shoulders do, which causes your back to round. If you have to go own in weight to get good form don't worry about, it is far more important to get form down before attempting bigger weights or an injury could put you back months what a few weeks will solve.

**iKermit** · 11-14-2006, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbush

at least you aren't dead lifting like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSvaU...elated&search=

the one thing i concentrated on that i feel helped me was making sure my shoulders and my ass always moved together at the beginning. In your video your hips begin to move before your shoulders do, which causes your back to round. If you have to go own in weight to get good form don't worry about, it is far more important to get form down before attempting bigger weights or an injury could put you back months what a few weeks will solve.

reps for leading me to this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ySb...elated&search=

saw this awhile back and couldn't find it again...can't stop laughing lol

marcus84 · 11-14-2006, 01:59 AM

LOL that was amazing! rep+ for that. Anyone know what hitched means?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbush

at least you aren't dead lifting like this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSvaU...elated&search=

the one thing i concentrated on that i feel helped me was making sure my shoulders and my ass always moved together at the beginning. In your video your hips begin to move before your shoulders do, which causes your back to round. If you have to go own in weight to get good form don't worry about, it is far more important to get form down before attempting bigger weights or an injury could put you back months what a few weeks will solve.

marcus84 · 11-14-2006, 02:20 AM

Check this one out too. Another idiot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ySblouCKs

Danimal · 11-14-2006, 06:00 AM

I have a hard time keeping my shoulders behind the bar as well. I think your body type plays into that to a degree, if you have a longer torso your leverage points will be different.

Superman187 · 11-14-2006, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus84

Check this one out too. Another idiot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ySblouCKs

Hey that was me... Just joking guys. Wow what a freakin idiot. Thanks for posting that. I almost fell over laughing

UhhWhatever · 11-14-2006, 07:41 AM

Holy **** - your form sucks, dude. I'm not trying to be an ass, but yeah, seriously, your form sucks. Your back never even approaches straight. That's not just curved - you look like a cat in heat.

Honestly, my advice to you is to find someone knowledgeable to work with you on your deadlift form. You can get some tips here, but you really need someone helping you.

Stretch your hamstrings - they aren't flexible enough to allow you to keep an arch in your back. Also, try switching to sumo for a while. It will allow you to keep your back straighter until you have sufficient flexibility in your hamstrings.

I'd advise you to do some bent over rows to help with your upper back, but until you can keep your back straight, I don't think that's a good idea. I'd advise you to do some good mornings, too, but that's not a good idea unless you have someone to help you with your form.

To give you an idea of how your back should be, try this:

Take a yardstick, slide it under your shirt (through the neck) and into the waistband of your pants. One end should be touching the top of your ass (at your waistband), the other end should be touching the back of your head. Now, do some deadlifts with a light weight (and I mean like just the bar). From the beginning to the end of the movement, no other part of your back should touch the yardstick. Do about 500 of those to drill the form into your head, then start adding some weight to the bar.

And seriously, get someone to help you. Once you get your form down, your deadlift will skyrocket.

Patu · 11-14-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UhhWhatever

That's not just curved - you look like a cat in heat.

lol! WTF?

Geography · 11-14-2006, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patu

lol! WTF?

Yeah I repped him for that and yoinked it into my signature.

shadow5788 · 11-14-2006, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UhhWhatever

Holy **** - your form sucks, dude. I'm not trying to be an ass, but yeah, seriously, your form sucks. Your back never even approaches straight. That's not just curved - you look like a cat in heat.

Honestly, my advice to you is to find someone knowledgeable to work with you on your deadlift form. You can get some tips here, but you really need someone helping you.

Stretch your hamstrings - they aren't flexible enough to allow you to keep an arch in your back. Also, try switching to sumo for a while. It will allow you to keep your back straighter until you have sufficient flexibility in your hamstrings.

I'd advise you to do some bent over rows to help with your upper back, but until you can keep your back straight, I don't think that's a good idea. I'd advise you to do some good mornings, too, but that's not a good idea unless you have someone to help you with your form.

To give you an idea of how your back should be, try this:

Take a yardstick, slide it under your shirt (through the neck) and into the waistband of your pants. One end should be touching the top of your ass (at your waistband), the other end should be touching the back of your head. Now, do some deadlifts with a light weight (and I mean like just the bar). From the beginning to the end of the movement, no other part of your back should touch the yardstick. Do about 500 of those to drill the form into your head, then start adding some weight to the bar.

And seriously, get someone to help you. Once you get your form down, your deadlift will skyrocket.

This is good help yes my hamstrings suck I cannot even touch my toes and have been working on it for awaile

the yardstick idea is a good one I will try it

what I find hard to believe is my back feels so straight but you are right I look like a cat in heat LOL

My squat seems to have a similar problem so a month ago I started doing them again but below parallel and they are so hard at the bottom and easy the rest of the way. I think my build and hamstrings give me alot of problems thats why I love The benchpress I went from 135 pound benchpress to 220 in one year at a weight of 140-145lbs

But what is hard to figure out is with most exercises say benchpress you find your max to base your workout on and when you do you push with everything you have and use that number but with the deadlift as soon as the weight gets heavy your form goes bad even though the weight should be a easy weight.

John Prophet · 11-14-2006, 07:12 PM

you are never actually arching your back

you need to arch your back and bench your legs down more at the start

as it is you are basically just bending over at the waist.....instead you need to squat a little more and bend at the waist a little less

then you need to sort of "pull back" against the bar to get the weight on your heels when you go to pull it off the floor

sometimes it helps to not think of pulling on the bar....rather, get everything "tight" and "push the floor away from you"

do you know what it means to 'arch" your back? you need to arch it and squat down more to the bar.....dont bend over to the bar with almost straight legs......what you are doing is basically a stiff legged deadlift

Danimal · 11-14-2006, 08:25 PM

Do any of you realize that the video you are commenting on was a joke? It was an imitation of our old friend Diesel Weasel.

Sorry if I ruined it for those who knew what was going on but it was killing me with people giving form advice on a lift that was done as a farce.

Geography · 11-14-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danimal

Do any of you realize that the video you are commenting on was a joke? It was an imitation of our old friend Diesel Weasel.

Sorry if I ruined it for those who knew what was going on but it was killing me with people giving form advice on a lift that was done as a farce.

I knew I read somewhere that was a mock lift, didn't know it was you.

shadow5788 · 11-14-2006, 09:28 PM

I'm not sure what video people are making comments on but the first topic has the correct video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS_TgpjNyV0

UhhWhatever · 11-15-2006, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danimal

Do any of you realize that the video you are commenting on was a joke? It was an imitation of our old friend Diesel Weasel.

Sorry if I ruined it for those who knew what was going on but it was killing me with people giving form advice on a lift that was done as a farce.

I'm commenting on Shadow's video - I think everyone is aware that the other was a spoof.

Shadow, you didn't really say - do you have anyone local you can go to for help?

shadow5788 · 11-15-2006, 03:34 PM

No I workout in my garage with my brother and brother in law their form is worse then mine but they do keep their back more arched.

I am trying to get this right by reading and watching videos along with videos of myself to compare.

Like i said I can do the deadlift with proper form with a light weight but I don't feel mechanically strong for example when the ass goes back it makes me further away from the bar as does keeping your shoulders behind you.

To me keeping the bar as close to the center of gravity makes sense to me.

also if you lower the hips and go low you pretty much squat the weight up for the first part of the movement and from watching meet videos some do this and others start with their ass higher and both have records I'm not sure if I should try with my hips real low just doesn't seem powerful from that position

I will post some videos in the weeks to come and maybe you can tell me about my progression.

also I start with my back arched it just as soon as it bears the weight it bends

Seems like such a easy movement intil I see the 1,000 post about it and it's form LOL

shadow5788 · 11-15-2006, 09:39 PM

I just did a few more videos

I tried to vary the technique intil I find something right please comment on the vids

Ps.Note that if I try to lower the weight using my legs my knees get in the way maybe someone can help me on the way down part of the lift

Also the last video I did I tried it started lower to the floor I believe this lift looks the best of the 3 but I did seem like I was in a akward not so powerful position .almost like in everyday life when you pick something up you want it to be real close to you so that your in a biomechanical position the last deadlift attempt felt like I was holding something away from me.

Please when looking at the videos comment on both the concentric and negative phase of the lift

The videos were to dark so I had to up the lighting so the quality is not great.

Deadlift Start Lower

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2t5oua9squY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DddhCkub2Oo

Good Example Of knees in the way
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1FtHQYvAXY

John Prophet · 11-15-2006, 10:24 PM

the first one was WAY better than the other days vids...thats the one you need to be working on

to not hit the knees you just need to not "squat it down".....bend from the hips first on the way down....then only at the end do you squat some

keep working on that form from the first vid.....make sure when you actually start pulling up that your weight is more on the heels that the toes.....you basically do this by pulling back against the bar etc

the knees move backwards out of the way so the bar comes straight up and probably scrapes the shins

once you get above the knee you pull back hard with the upper body while trying to also drive the hips forward.....try to get the feel for what creates the greatest leverage

you can see that the order is one way coming up and the other way coming down....in other words coming up it is "legs squat (upper body holds steady), then upperbody pulls back as it passes the knee"......on the way down it is backwards...."upperbody forward while the legs hold more or less steady...then as it passes the knee coming down the legs squat"

dont be too concerned with "keeping your shoulders behind the bar".

check this great detailed analysis of deadlift technique http://www.crossfit.com/journal/libr...ofDeadlift.pdf

also here http://www.crossfit.com/journal/2006...alysis_of.html

anyway, that first vid shows a big improvement bro.....not just keep working on that and then its just a matter of strengthening those muscles....low back, hams, thighs etc

here is one of me earlier this year....I round when I bend down to grab the bar etc....but then I straighten the back before I actually pull....you can clearly see my weight it on my heels....the legs move out of the way (I might even overdo that, lol)

I think your body type might be a little more long legged than mine...so yours will look slightly different

John Prophet · 11-15-2006, 10:27 PM

oh, another point....when you go to let the bar down...remember that the butt needs to go "backwards" some.....dont just bend over forward because the bar gets out away from the body and its a lot of leverage against the low back etc

push the hips back and "bow" forward....then when the bar gets close to the ground you finally squat some

and usually you dont try to let th ebar down slow, lol....just sort of do a controlled free fall

in my video I actually lower it too slow, lol....I have corrected that now and I drop it down a little quicker

Berserker-Power · 11-15-2006, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IKermit

reps for leading me to this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0ySb...elated&search=

saw this awhile back and couldn't find it again...can't stop laughing lol

I believe that video was done to payout desiel weasel quite a while ago, it was even funnier when it was paying him out

UhhWhatever · 11-16-2006, 07:41 AM

Ok, well if you can't get someone to personally help, we'll do what we can, man. I'd agree with pretty much everything John said, but I wouldn't be me if I didn't add some stuff.

That first video looked pretty good - much, much better than the other. The second video looked good on the ascent, but the descent looked pretty rough. The third video was pretty rough all the way through.

Watch your first video again. Your problem with form is entirely due to your lack of flexibility in your hamstrings. Do you see how even at the beginning, you don't have a real arch in your lower back? Your ass is tucked under slightly, and your lower back is rounded (not bad - and much better than the first video you posted, but it is still rounded).

You need to work on flexibility to be able to do a really proper deadlift. In the meantime, you shouldn't neglect your strength, however.

Switch to sumo deadlifts. They're so much easier to do when your hamstrings are tight, your back will remain more upright, and with your body proportions, it'll be much easier for you to maintain good form. You'll be able to keep your back arched better, and you won't have issues with the bar hitting your knees on the way down. Go do some, take a video, and post back.

Oh, and much respect for posting a video, and then actually listening to people and trying out their suggestions.

shadow5788 · 11-20-2006, 10:13 PM

I haven't got new vids yet but have been practicing my form. and still been looking into how they should be done.

Today I did 8 sets of 3 with a 135 pounds working on my form and they felt much heavier with what everyone says is the right form. I even got to put the bar down the correct way I just push my ass back like when I squat and the lowering of the bar looks perfect but it puts way more stress on my lower back I;m using as much leg as possible to.

It has been 2 hours that I last deadlifted and my lower back muscles are sorer then they ever have been keep in mind that I usually go up to 245 pounds and I'm never sore.

Take a look at these vids these guys seem to have rounded backs similar to mine in my before video
http://www.americanpowerliftevolutio...analysis1.html

also I see the same in this instructional video on the side view
http://ironclub.net/amy/dead/amydead.html

(Quote From This Site:Quite often it is said that a lifter should arch his back during the lift but arched back lifting only occurs during the clean of an Olympic lift... a clean is a clean and not a deadlift.)

next I read the article in crossfit and I'm pretty sure it says keep your shoulders and knees past the bar were 100 other articles say keep them behind the bar.

some articles say retract your spetula or whatever muscles yet some powerlifters say not to.

I searched for how to do the way down and theire are very few articles but I did find a few that say Do NOT lower the bar back to the ground slowly. Keep the hands on the bar and let gravity take the weight down.
(I tried this and It has less strain On My back but my back rounds right up and my legs don't bend that much.

As for max lifts as in a competition if the max lift you can do is one that doesn't force your back to round how come most powerlifters fail somewhere else and not in the back rounding for example if powerlifter A Can do 600lbs in perfect form can't he do 650 in less then perfect form.

I know I must be stupid because I'm not getting this I'm going to keep experimenting with my form when I think it's better I will post again just seems like my body should be smarter I mean the natural way everyone lifts should be the right why does the body want to do it in a unsafe form

Danimal · 11-21-2006, 06:43 AM

I would take anything that Juan Lancaster says with a grain of salt. His specialty is doing partial lifts, like lifting the bar 3" at a time with real heavy weight. Partial lifts for partial results. His form is horrible even on partial lifts. His "Amy" thing has terrible form, looking down, back rounded, etc. Just like him.

The other site, remember- those are experienced guys who were going for huge poundages for 1 rep maxes. Not repping out light weight like you were in your video. Their form does not look like that when they are not doing a full out max, guarantee it. Most people have some form issues when they do a full out max, but even 1st and 2nd attempts at a meet can be done with good form.

In your vid, there are a bunch of things wrong. Your head is not up. Your hips are not down, your legs are not bent. It looks like you are doing some sort of rounded back stiff leg deadlift.

First- get your head up! The head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start the lift. Imagine trying to look at the wall behind you, but not so exaggerated. 2nd- get your hips down and push your butt back- this will help keep your back flat in conjunction with leading with your head. Get your legs bent a little more. You don't want to be down on the bar too far and make the lift into a squat, but you are pretty far off from being at that point.

I can't imagine that your form is any better with lighter weight, because there are too many things wrong with your setup in the video.

**_Dominik_** · 11-21-2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danimal

I would take anything that Juan Lancaster says with a grain of salt. His specialty is doing partial lifts, like lifting the bar 3" at a time with real heavy weight. Partial lifts for partial results. His form is horrible even on partial lifts. His "Amy" thing has terrible form, looking down, back rounded, etc. Just like him.

The other site, remember- those are experienced guys who were going for huge poundages for 1 rep maxes. Not repping out light weight like you were in your video. Their form does not look like that when they are not doing a full out max, guarantee it. Most people have some form issues when they do a full out max, but even 1st and 2nd attempts at a meet can be done with good form.

In your vid, there are a bunch of things wrong. Your head is not up. Your hips are not down, your legs are not bent. It looks like you are doing some sort of rounded back stiff leg deadlift.

First- get your head up! The head should be the 1st thing that moves when you start the lift. Imagine trying to look at the wall behind you, but not so exaggerated. 2nd- get your hips down and push your butt back- this will help keep your back flat in conjunction with leading with your head. Get your legs bent a little more. You don't want to be down on the bar too far and make the lift into a squat, but you are pretty far off from being at that point.

I can't imagine that your form is any better with lighter weight, because there are too many things wrong with your setup in the video.

^^^ Couldn't sum it up any better than that.

One thing I've noticed watching videos is a lot of guys seem to be reluctant to use some leg drive at the start to assist their lower back. Think about it this way, how easy is a half squat with that weight? If it's not easy for you then you'll want to take care of that by making leg training more of a priority.

All you need is a little leg drive as you pull back and up to get the bar moving to the typical sticking point just below the knees. From there, you should ideally be in a position resembling an RDL so you can pull the bar over the knees and drive the hips forward to cleanly lock it out. When you stiff-leg it by allowing the hips to shoot up before the head and shoulders, you're forced to do it all with your lower back. In this position when the weight is simply too heavy you'll be forced to bail on it or hitch it, one of the two.

UhhWhatever · 11-22-2006, 08:35 AM

Dude, don't post pictures of a purple cartoon character to justify your crappy deadlift form.

If you want to round your back, then round your back and I hope you don't hurt yourself. If you want help with your form, then take the advice that's been given to you by some knowledgeable people who have decent deadlift numbers.

shadow5788 · 11-22-2006, 06:48 PM

I only posted the links because they seem like instructional videos and the other link is of powerlifters with records so I didn't post it to be a ass but to LEARN why.

Is IRONCLUB.NET A bad site

and this link http://www.americanpowerliftevolutio...analysis1.html
has guys with deadlift records and written my some one from florida state

Mostly why they have so many "this is the right way to deadlift articles" with 600 right ways.

Why do so many people on this board seem to get upset so easily, I am very glad to have some were to ask these questions and have people with more knowledge then me reply

I will in time do these deadlift in correct form I just haven't found my right grove yet and haven't increased my flexability I will post some more videos on monday night and maybe someone will comment again

SwampMaster · 11-23-2006, 04:58 AM

Shadow, bro,

kudos for making a real effort, and taking the chance to post the vids.
I've been reading the thread but wasn't able to see the vids because of my firewall at work.

First, realize there is good stuff you'll see and crap you'll see when you post something like this. Don't worry about the crap.

I can tell you genuinely are trying to give it a shot, so as long as you keep a good attitude and sift out the responses you get, there's plenty of folks here who'll give you good info.

It would certainly help if you could get someone in person to critique your style.... and I'm no expert by any means. I'll just echo the comments you got earlier and say that despite the feelings of discomfort, your second video is better than the first. Keep working on the form, getting a little lower when you start, keep the back straight/arched, head up, and you'll get it! I suspect you do indeed have some significant weak areas that make the 'bad' form feel better to you now, but if you work the good form, in a month things will be much improved.

SwampMaster · 11-23-2006, 05:47 AM

Just thought you might also like some samples of a few different styles of dl work at the 2003 IPF comp. 110 kg class.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sh-15IkNMYA

UhhWhatever · 11-27-2006, 11:22 AM

I was mostly just joking - don't be so sensitive. You have to admit that purple lady was kind of funny looking.

You can deadlift with your back rounded. Some people can even deadlift a lot. The problem is when your lower back is rounded, your spine, rather than your muscles, supports most of the load. As it's pretty difficult to make your spine stronger, sooner or later you'll slip a disk.

It just sounded to me like you were trying to justify your form by dredging up some pictures of other people doing the same thing. Like I said, if you want to round your back, then go do so, and I hope you don't get hurt.