The apostate issue, Clear agreed upon facts, and All the respected scholars opinions.

[mahmoud mohamed]

Why am I making a thread for discussing the apostate issue in Islam:

1) Cause many fallacies have been said ignorantly about this subject mainly from non moslim members. (no offence).

2) To clear this issue up and summarize it, to be a reference for knowledge for moslims and non moslims here.

************************

Make clear that this is under the known non debatable fact among all moslims. Scholars, people, and even the very few worse ignorant arrogant extremists,

That No one (non moslim) can ever be compelled to be a moslim, If someone is ever compelled then he is not even a moslim and he is not under Islam law, he is still a non moslim with all the rights of a non moslim.




This cause the holy Quran stated this fact clearly with no single atom of doubt:


(There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in God (Allah) hath grasped a firm hand hold which will never break. God (Allah) is Hearer, Knower.) holy Qur'aan Surah 2. Al-Baqara, verse no. 256.


(And if thy Lord willed, all who are in the earth would have believed together. Wouldst thou (Muhammad) compel men until they are believers?.) holy Qur'aan Surah 10. Yunus, verse no. 99.


************************



So we first begin by the known agreed upon facts to All old and current moslim scholars, and of course more than 99.9999% of moslim populations:





1) To define that someone is an apostate is the right only of certified scholars, and certified moslim judges, No moslim has the right to say that someone is an apostate except when he clearly openly says that he does not believe in Islam and he is not a moslim any more. And even in this case No moslim has a single right to punish ever, this is the sole right of the moslim state, if the apostate is in the moslim state of course, but if he is not in a moslim state, then of course he is under the laws of the foreign state not the moslim state, and No moslim has the right to hurt him ever. Of course any moslim has only the right to refute him peacefully in conversation or media.

2) The state is the only authority to choose to punish the apostate, NO moslim has the right to perform any punishment by himself, This includes all kinds of punishments in Islam law of course. If the state does not punish, then no moslim has the right to punish ever, he only has the right to discus this issue peacefully or protest peacefully.

3) To be an apostate is a crime.

4) The apostate is no longer a moslim, and though, if he has a moslim wife, then she is divorced from him by the court, cause Islam does not allow a moslim lady to marry a non moslim man. But if his wife is Cristian or Jew, So of course no divorce from courts here.


These are the main agreed upon facts.

************************

The question is, What is the issue that has different old and current scholars opinions, of course the issue is the punishment of the apostate.


Here is a link where I illustrated briefly about this issue

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...3&postcount=80


Cause this link is very important, I saw that it's important to quote from it here also:

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

As for the apostate issue i investigated and read much about this issue and found there are two openions, the first is what syriankid mentioned and it's the prevailing one among moslims.

We must be aware that this prevailing openion depends on the known fact the no one can be forced ever to join islam, so it's telling anyone to think twice before joining, he must be 100% sure cause it's a one way choice, cause we want only strong believers. So you are free not to join, but to join you must be 100% determinded. And if you want to commite apostacy afterwards you have three days to discuss and return back to islam or the punishment.

The second openion ( by an respected old azhar university professor and scholar) diffrentiate bet. two kinds of apostates, the one who commite this crime then he summons people to join him and make propaganda, or begin a sivil war against the moslim state. this is where the punishment apply.

the other kind is only commiting this crime and keeps it personal without summoning anyone to it, or making any diturbance or propaganda.

Remeber that in the (hudaybai) truce treaty bet. the prophet (pbuh) and (quraish) there was a statement the any moslim who comes back to quraish as an apostate, and being pagan again, moslims will not punish him or follow him.
and the prophet (pbuh) agreed on that, this was few years before the prophet's (pbuh) death.

All the apostats as i read and the scholar searched who was punished by death had killlied an innocent moslim or done a huge terrible crime.
All the verses talking about apostats talk about the very hard punishment in the other life (as i know and the scholar searched) no direct order of a punishment in this life by moslims.

The moses and jews issue they were publically performing pagan rituals after apostacy, meaning leading other believers to misguidance also, this is a case anyway, and no direct order for us. God (Allah) is the most knower.


These are the two openions, hope to have cleared the subject. God (Allah) is the best knower of all things, and we ask Him for guidance.

And here is another Arabic link for reference:

http://www.qaradawi.net/site/topics/...0&parent_id=17



************************

We can concise all the opinions concerning the punishment, And Again All are very respected of course:


1) Any apostate is punished by the state by death, this is not before a period of conversation with moslim scholars, in this period he is not hurt, he may be imprisoned respectfully, if he repented in this period then he is set free and forgiven instantly. The period varied according to scholars opinions to the following:

a) Three days.
b) Less than three days, diff. according to the circumstances.
c) Life time, this means lifetime imprisonment in a respectful way till the apostate repents.


2) The normal apostate who does not make propaganda or crimes against Islam or moslims, has the three days to life time period of repentance, but the other apostate who commits the crime of making aggressive propaganda against Islam or make the crime of murdering a moslim has no privilege in this period, he must repent before he is caught by the moslim police, if he repented before that, then he is forgiven from the apostasy crime and set free, (if he has committed the crime of murder then this is another legal discussion).

3) The normal apostate who does not make propaganda or crimes against Islam or moslims, Is left for God (Allah) punishment, No moslim or moslim state has the right to punish him ever, but the other apostate who commits the crime of making aggressive propaganda against Islam or make the crime of murdering a moslim has no privilege, he is in the category of punishment with the constraints mentioned above.


************************


This topic of course is open for discussion, but I demand again respect and rational calm way of talk, I'll ignore any non rational or flame post.


Salam,
Peace

[Tamacracker]

Wow... thanks for this thread bro, you just cleared up a question I had lined up for SK on his thread.

[mahmoud mohamed]

Originally Posted by Tamacracker

Wow... thanks for this thread bro, you just cleared up a question I had lined up for SK on his thread.

You're much welcomed, bro, I didn't read your question in the other thread, but anyway this topic needs a full thread.


Thanks bro,

[Ruhanv]

This is absolutely crazy!

In Islam you are not forced to become a Muslim, however if you live in an Islamic state and leave Islam, then you are either imprisoned for life or executed. Obviously you have the opportunity to repent and spare yourself this punishment.

This is inhumane and disgraceful and state sponsored crimes against humanity. It also explains why you hardly ever hear about any deconverting in a Muslim state...

[Tamacracker]

I believe it's because they're protecting their own people, their own culture, and their religion. They're trying to prevent people from becoming those of who even Moses himself would kill in the name of God.

[MantisShrimp]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

This is inhumane and disgraceful and state sponsored crimes against humanity. It also explains why you hardly ever hear about any deconverting in a Muslim state...

Sorta like the iron curtain for souls?

[Ruhanv]

Originally Posted by Tamacracker

I believe it's because they're protecting their own people, their own culture, and their religion. They're trying to prevent people from becoming those of who even Moses himself would kill in the name of God.

It's being insecure about your own religion. If it was the truth it wouldn't need state protection. Any idea or theory that requires enforcement by the state in order to exist does not have the strength to stand on it's own.

[Tamacracker]

Are you comparing the Western Civilization's ideologies? They live a whole different life than we do. God and their faith is more important to them than $100,000,000,000,000,000... I don't see it as insecurity... I see it more as protection and setting examples of those who walk away from the truth and the faith.

Just like a U.S. soldier who tries to leave the U.S. armed forces without a reason other than for their own benefit or whatever the reason may be... they get punished for it.

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by mahmoud muhammad

3) The normal apostate who does not make propaganda or crimes against Islam or moslims, Is left for God (Allah) punishment, No moslim or moslim state has the right to punish him ever, but the other apostate who commits the crime of making aggressive propaganda against Islam or make the crime of murdering a moslim has no privilege, he is in the category of punishment with the constraints mentioned above.

This is not true. Any person who makes his apostacy KNOWN, is considered an apostate and given the three days of scholarly discussions and time for repentence. You have totally invented the idea that an apostate who "doesn't make aggressive propaganda against the state/Islam/Muslims" is left alone. What a coincidence that you put a subjective term in there to leave the matter open ended.

Even wikipedia, a site where kuffar can post about Islam, contradicts you with Islamic proofs!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

[Tamacracker]

Whoa... well thanks for clearing that up SK!

[Ruhanv]

Originally Posted by Tamacracker

Are you comparing the Western Civilization's ideologies? They live a whole different life than we do. God and their faith is more important to them than $100,000,000,000,000,000... I don't see it as insecurity... I see it more as protection and setting examples of those who walk away from the truth and the faith.

Just like a U.S. soldier who tries to leave the U.S. armed forces without a reason other than for their own benefit or whatever the reason may be... they get punished for it.

Any religion that requires state enforcement is not secure in it's own validity as a religion should be able to stand on it's own merits, not by the rule of law.

Murdering a person for leaving a religion is not "setting examples of those who walk away from the truth and the faith." Well it actually is but it's showing how illogical and barbaric that religionis.

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

So we first begin by the known agreed upon facts to All old and current moslim scholars, and of course more than 99.9999% of moslim populations:

Did you know that 73.62341% of all statistics are made up?

[mahmoud mohamed]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

This is not true. Any person who makes his apostacy KNOWN, is considered an apostate and given the three days of scholarly discussions and time for repentence. You have totally invented the idea that an apostate who "doesn't make aggressive propaganda against the state/Islam/Muslims" is left alone. What a coincidence that you put a subjective term in there to leave the matter open ended.

Even wikipedia, a site where kuffar can post about Islam, contradicts you with Islamic proofs!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam

syriankid, I don't care about whatever you say. (no offence)

You're always Not looking for knowledge from certified Islamic sources,. you're confined in your minor extreem group way of thinking.

You're not talking from an Islamic perpespective, you always talk from your minor group extreme perspective.

With no offence, I give you Zero credibility, Under Zero attention,

I'll not reply to you, only this kinds of replies you'll get from me, you do
not deserve more than this. (no offence).

[mahmoud mohamed]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

Any religion that requires state enforcement is not secure in it's own validity as a religion should be able to stand on it's own merits, not by the rule of law.

Murdering a person for leaving a religion is not "setting examples of those who walk away from the truth and the faith." Well it actually is but it's showing how illogical and barbaric that religionis.

This is a point, And if you didn't notice I mentioned the certified respected scholar opinion regarding this issue.


You see, in many moslim countries there's No punishment for the normal non criminal apostate,

In Egypt as an example, and many other countries,

Islam does not need the death punishment at all, and this does not even need to be proved, Historically and nowadays, Islam proved that this is not even an issue.

The point here is that when a new moslim is there, especially in the first ages of Islam, He is usually will become immediately a soldier in the moslim army (by his own will of course, even this there was no compulsion to be a soldier in the army in the early ages), So some respected scholars chose the opinions of death punishment for this reason,


The issue of need was not and is not even a issue to talk about.

[saloman]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

syriankid, I don't care about whatever you say. (no offence)

You're always Not looking for knowledge from certified Islamic sources,. you're confined in your minor extreem group way of thinking.

You're not talking from an Islamic perpespective, you always talk from your minor group extreme perspective.

With no offence, I give you Zero credibility, Under Zero attention,

I'll not reply to you, only this kinds of replies you'll get from me, you do
not deserve more than this. (no offence).

Isn't this sort of like saying "You're a knucklehead. No offense."

[EOY]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

syriankid, I don't care about whatever you say. (no offence)

You're always Not looking for knowledge from certified Islamic sources,. you're confined in your minor extreem group way of thinking.

You're not talking from an Islamic perpespective, you always talk from your minor group extreme perspective.

With no offence, I give you Zero credibility, Under Zero attention,

I'll not reply to you, only this kinds of replies you'll get from me, you do
not deserve more than this. (no offence).

LOL..I never knew that the four schools of jurisprudence, the source of ALL Sunni Sharia (even your adorable scholars claim to follow them), were an extreme minority

Please stop, because this is turning into a joke (no offence, no hard feelings).

[mahmoud mohamed]

Due to the history of syriankid with me regarding disrespect to me and very many certified respected loved and known moslim scholars, I'm not reading or replying to any of his posts, this is the policy, I don't want useless worthless flames here, this applies to any post here or in any other thread, and to any member taking this shame disrespectful attitude. So if any other member want to discuss or inquire about anything including any fake an extremist make, Please do in a respectful manner, And I am willing to fully clarify and discuss by God ''Allah'' willing, the point is that I only manage to come to this beautiful forum once a week in app. So I apologize for any delay.

And as a precaution, I'll refute any fakes they can make without quoting, this eases the tension and stops the flam by God ''Allah'' willing. I know in advance what fakes they can put here, so I don't even have to read their posts to know what fakes they're bringing. (no offence)


Note: I know how the extreme mind work, I have studied very well their technique, their ways, every fake disrespectful attitude they make, they vary from scale of 1 to 10 in extremism, my personal judgment for syrinkid is app. 6 in extremism (no offence), the problem is that when you reach 10 in extremism you'll become a terrorist for sure, but only some few tens who reach this state, the most important issue here is that if we (every moslim) don't fight extremism intellectually, then we are the ones disgracing and harming our great religion, then we will be allowing a few totally ignorant of us to reach grade 10 in extremism, Our duty as moslims to fight the disrespecting and lying over God (Allah), and his slave and prophet mohammed (pbuh), by not accepting His Merciful Broad religion for all mankind.

Again the problem here is respect, any one can chose the scholar's opinion he likes, but the moment you disrespect the moment you lose any atom of respect, the moment you deserve not to be respected, or even heard for, the same moment you're making a direct attack on the core heart of your religion, Mercy, Broadness.

Salam
Peace

[Mr Beer]

Now, I'm not one to take childish digs at people *cough*, but I was under the impression that Muslims criticise Christianity for, among other things, having fractured and divided opinions on matter of faith?

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

Due to the history of syriankid with me

As-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Raheem
Wa Salla-Allahu 'ala Muhammad wa 'ala aalihi wa sahbihi ajma'een

Look, don't throw a tantrum just because you've encountered proofs from the Qur'an, Prophetic sayings, and consensus of the scholars on a matter that is very dear to your heart that you refuse to let go for the sake of God. This is not the first time you've been confronted about your stray personal interpretations of religious law and I know at first it's going to be difficult for you to accept the sacrifices to your ego and personal life you will have to make, but I assure you it is worth it. Religion is not easy for those who prefer to obey their whims and submit to God only when it is convenient to do so in their life.

If the truth were to follow their whims and desires, the heavens and the earth and everything in them would have been brought to ruin. No indeed! We have given their Reminder, but they have turned away from it. (Qur'an 23:71)

Hast thou seen him who chooseth for his god his own desire? Wouldst thou then be guardian over him? (Quran 25:43)

Is he who relieth on a clear proof from his Lord like those for whom the evil that they do is beautified while they follow their own desire? (Qur'an 47:14)

Imam al-Qarafi1 says,

‘And beware of doing what some students do when they reason directly from the hadith, and yet they don’t know their soundness, let alone what has been mentioned [by the Imams] concerning the subtleties involved in them; by doing this, they went astray and led others astray. And whoever interprets a verse or hadith in a manner that deviates from its intended meaning without proof [dalil] is a kafir.’”

The Prophet (pbuh) said:

There will be those who invite people to the doors of hell. Whoever answers their invitation, they will toss him into the fire.” IThe companion asked: “Oh Messenger of God , describe them to us.” He said: “They will have the same skin as we and speak our language.” The companion asked : “What do you order me to do if that period reaches me?” He replied: “Cling to the community of Muslims and their imam.” The companion asked: “What if there is no community nor imam?” He explained: “Avoid those factions, all of them, even though you may have to fiercely bite the roots of a tree until death reaches you in that state.”

"God will not retract this knowledge by a withdrawal, [suddenly] withdrawing it from people's hearts, but He will retract knowledge by retracting the scholars, until, when He has left no scholar, people will take ignorant leaders, who will be asked, and will pronounce verdicts without knowledge, thus going astray and leading others astray."

"Whoever interprets the Qur'an using only his personal opinion, shall take his place in the Fire."

'Whoever interprets the Qur'an using his own intellect, even if the interpretation is correct, he is committing a grievous sin.'

Jazakum Allah Khair
Barak Allah Feekum
W'as-Salaamu aleikum wa rahmat Allah wa barakatahu

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Mr Beer

Now, I'm not one to take childish digs at people *cough*, but I was under the impression that Muslims criticise Christianity for, among other things, having fractured and divided opinions on matter of faith?

That's different, because in this case it is a matter of uneducated and unqualified (usually young) Muslims who love a certain thing, having difficulty conceding to proof-texts. For example, it's like Muslims who drink alcohol and try to squirm around and make it permissible when anyone who has knowledge of Islamic revelation can reference that it is not. But it is difficult for people to admit they are wrong, so they prefer to try to corrupt texts than admit this.

Just because a Muslim DISAGREES, doesn't mean his opinion carries any weight, just like if a bio student wants to argue with the medical establishment without qualification or knowledge. They are easily proven wrong even if their arrogance and temper flairs up. And their personal opinion doesn't hold the same weight as the consensus of professionals and their history of experiments and records.

In Christianity, we find actual disagreement on the creed itself, by the clergy LET ALONE by the average Christian who simply doesn't want to believe and do what is a clear part of Christian faith.

[affy]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

syriankid, I don't care about whatever you say. (no offence)

You're always Not looking for knowledge from certified Islamic sources,. you're confined in your minor extreem group way of thinking.

You're not talking from an Islamic perpespective, you always talk from your minor group extreme perspective.

With no offence, I give you Zero credibility, Under Zero attention,

I'll not reply to you, only this kinds of replies you'll get from me, you do
not deserve more than this. (no offence).

SK i like you...but you've been owned

lol!

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by affy

SK i like you...but you've been owned

lol!

All part of a day's work.

The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) said:

"Islam began as a stranger and shall again be considered a stranger. Therefore, blessings and glad tidings to the strangers! - Those who set aright what people have corrupted of my Sunna (Prophetic example) after me."

[ElMariachi]

*Sits back, reaches for his popcorn, lets out a loud burp, and continues reading*

[Weightaholic]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

All part of a day's work.

The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of God be upon him) said:

"Islam began as a stranger and shall again be considered a stranger. Therefore, blessings and glad tidings to the strangers! - Those who set aright what people have corrupted of my Sunna (Prophetic example) after me."

Quotes from a religious book backing up that religion cannot be considered to be objective proof of anything.

[MantisShrimp]

Can we get some Salafi in this thread, or what?
I am guessing that is what mahmoud is?
munches popcorn
burp

$35 on syriankid

[mo87]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

syriankid, I don't care about whatever you say. (no offence)

You're always Not looking for knowledge from certified Islamic sources,. you're confined in your minor extreem group way of thinking.

You're not talking from an Islamic perpespective, you always talk from your minor group extreme perspective.

With no offence, I give you Zero credibility, Under Zero attention,

I'll not reply to you, only this kinds of replies you'll get from me, you do
not deserve more than this. (no offence).

mahmoud mohamed... thats no way of discussing a topic if you think your right then prove your right rather than acting with no respect! last time i checked islam doesnt approve of being arrogant and disrespectful to others..!

[EOY]

Originally Posted by mahmoud mohamed

I rock, you suck. (no offence)

[EOY]

Originally Posted by MantisShrimp

Can we get some Salafi in this thread, or what?

I guess the closest person to that would be me

Originally Posted by MantisShrimp

I am guessing that is what mahmoud is?

HAAAAAAAAAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHAHA....no

Originally Posted by MantisShrimp

munches popcorn
burp

$35 on syriankid

*Asks Mantis to pass it, "I'll take a bet on that (hypothetical one)"*

[mahmoud mohamed]

I apologize for the delay in replies, it will be as I mentioned in the last post by God (Allah) willing,

I had many course exams the last weeks, I'm very exhausted,

[John182]

Assalaam aleikum warahmetullaah,

Akhi.. it's not worth to debate infront of the kuffaar like what ur doing in the apostate topic... Debate with him thru pm or msn, like i do with a shia (lol)

You said ( in the apostate topic ),

[/U]The Prophet (pbuh) said:

"Whoever interprets the Qur'an using only his personal opinion, shall take his place in the Fire."

'Whoever interprets the Qur'an using his own intellect, even if the interpretation is correct, he is committing a grievous sin.'

Can you quote the hadeeth, book nro, and isnaad for these? Jazak Allahu khair in advance...

wassalaam aleikum,
-majid