Way to lose fat and gain muscle simultaneously?

[E_Scapegoat]

Obviously, people always say its impossible to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time, but since most of us know this isnt set in stone at all, but i have a plan, just tell me if you think it holds water.

Ive been planning to do a year long very clean bulk (.5lbs a week), incorperating fish oil, sesamin, low intensity cardio, green tea, bcaas, etc. This was going to start in around a week, but i just got hired for a door to door type job, where im pretty much walking all around for about 2 hours.

Then i started thinking, what if instead of just eating a little more than usual, on days i worked, i could just bulk during the day, and at around 5ish, pop a sesamin, green tea, etc, and go low/no carb the rest of the night, with my job (low intensity cardio). Would that basically allow me to gain weight during the day, while maintaining fat level, and lose fat in the evening, while maintaining muscle (i bring meals with me and bcaas just in case).

Any opinions on this?

[benjamin88]

so thrughout the day are u having a caloric surplus or deficit or maintainance?

[stealth_swimmer]

If you want to lose bodyfat or just maintain a low bodyfat while bulking, the main things are to include low intesnity cardio and managing hormone production. In other words, don't create insulin spikes at any time other than post workout. This means that post workout you need fast digesting carbs, but at all other times of the day eat slow digesting carbs. Try to also reduce carb intake at night. A simple thing for this is: if you have carbs at night, make sure they are from leafy fibrous vegetables. Another thing is: if you eat tuna and especially salmon, you don't need to supplement with fish oil(unless you didn't eat them on that particular day). Many people say to bump up healthy fats during cutting, but that doesn't mean you should avoid them at other times. Include fish like salmon, tuna, or sardines year round because they are also good sources of protein. Tuna is leanest with salmon being the fattiest of the three.

[E_Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

so thrughout the day are u having a caloric surplus or deficit or maintainance?

well, i guess my meals would be planned as a +500 surplus totalled, but then in the evening (workouts in the late morning) it would be as if ive been cutting throughout the day. Totalled, it would be around matainance, only with a good amount of protein and good fat before bed, to insure good hormones while i sleep (summer, so i get around 9 hours).

If that really wouldnt work, then im fine with just maintaining fat levels by having the totalled intake around +250 after cardio, so i would raise calories during the day.

what im really just getting at is would i see real benefit in fully bulking during the day, then cut off carbs while doing low intensity cardio and then sleep, so as every day i would gain some muscle, and lose some fat, and when im satisfied at bodyfat levels, i just aim for more during the day?

fyi, Stealth, i around had a session under Chuck, so i basically understand alot of those concepts

[benjamin88]

Originally Posted by E_Scapegoat

well, i guess my meals would be planned as a +500 surplus totalled, but then in the evening (workouts in the late morning) it would be as if ive been cutting throughout the day. Totalled, it would be around matainance, only with a good amount of protein and good fat before bed, to insure good hormones while i sleep (summer, so i get around 9 hours).

If that really wouldnt work, then im fine with just maintaining fat levels by having the totalled intake around +250 after cardio, so i would raise calories during the day.

what im really just getting at is would i see real benefit in fully bulking during the day, then cut off carbs while doing low intensity cardio and then sleep, so as every day i would gain some muscle, and lose some fat, and when im satisfied at bodyfat levels, i just aim for more during the day?

fyi, Stealth, i around had a session under Chuck, so i basically understand alot of those concepts

lol ur not curtting in the day if ur geting a caloric surplus, ur just burning cals n puting them back on and then some, most peoples version of cutting is a caloric deficit

[E_Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

lol ur not curtting in the day if ur geting a caloric surplus, ur just burning cals n puting them back on and then some, most peoples version of cutting is a caloric deficit

im at 9%bf, i want to be 7, but at this point, id rather start to gain muscle again.

[stealth_swimmer]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

most peoples version of cutting is a caloric deficit

Most people lose "weight" in a caloric deficit. The should be on maintenance and their training would put then in a slight deficit. It's kind of the reason bodybuilders do slow cardio. If you burn directly from fat, then you burn what you need to burn, but if you burn sugar then you're burning your workout fuel.

[benjamin88]

Originally Posted by stealth_swimmer

Most people lose "weight" in a caloric deficit. The should be on maintenance and their training would put then in a slight deficit. It's kind of the reason bodybuilders do slow cardio. If you burn directly from fat, then you burn what you need to burn, but if you burn sugar then you're burning your workout fuel.

at wat point did i explain wat type of caloric deficit, or to wat scale, i jus said ppl have a caloric deficit if there cutting, by the way 2 the above post at wat point did i say ovefrlow your body with sugar before u do cardio, or go into a huge cal deficit to lose muscle?

i did not

[benjamin88]

Originally Posted by E_Scapegoat

im at 9%bf, i want to be 7, but at this point, id rather start to gain muscle again.

i agree, wen ever i get to 8% bf its only in july and august, at 8% i feel to skinny in normal clothes, so i agree with u bulk

[BluSilver]

The only way you're going to lose bf while gaining muscle (considering you're not a noobie) is to:

1)Use Draconian dieting drugs (beza, etc)

2)Steroids

And MAYBE

3)Cyclical diet (UD2) with slight surplus in calories, with glycogen depleting days, sprints or other of the like, and having an awesome training split that is in sync with your diet

A lot of people can lose bf% while bulking, but not actual bodyfat. They do this by increasing their LBM/fat ratio.

If you want to go the cyclical dieting route, you'll need to ask a lot of questions. But I don't think you know what you're doing with the "evening cut" or whatever.

[stealth_swimmer]

Originally Posted by benjamin88

at wat point did i explain wat type of caloric deficit, or to wat scale, i jus said ppl have a caloric deficit if there cutting, by the way 2 the above post at wat point did i say ovefrlow your body with sugar before u do cardio, or go into a huge cal deficit to lose muscle?

i did not

I'm not sure if I'm spelling this right but...touche' (too-shay)

[E_Scapegoat]

say i tried something like this then?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast15.htm

[blinKme431]

Originally Posted by stealth_swimmer

I'm not sure if I'm spelling this right but...touche' (too-shay)

You are, but here's a hint. Next time, if you don't want to look like an idiot, just use a dictionary.
Honestly, I hate when people write out an unfamiliar word and then put: (sp?). That's why we have dictionary.com
It's THAT easy.

[stealth_swimmer]

Originally Posted by blinKme431

You are, but here's a hint. Next time, if you don't want to look like an idiot, just use a dictionary.
Honestly, I hate when people write out an unfamiliar word and then put: (sp?). That's why we have dictionary.com
It's THAT easy.

coolnesss, i'll use that next time.

[BluSilver]

Originally Posted by E_Scapegoat

say i tried something like this then?

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/beast15.htm

It's a longshot...

Think of it like this:

When you try to do an extremely lean bulk, say 200 cals over maint eaach day, whereas it's advised to go 500 over, you're not gaining as much muscle as you could be. You're also taking much longer to get to where you want to be, whereas you could have bulked much faster then cut it off by now, with more muscle and now you can bulk again.

Staying around maint. cals is too hard to go either way (bulk/cut) you're not really having enough calories to gain muscle, or few enough to cut. You should pick one at a time so that you are dedicatd to one task, which you will be able to succeed at much more efficiently.

[E_Scapegoat]

The problem with the average bulk, then cut, with me, is my body hasnt been reacting to cutting very well, i shaved off way too much muscle off my arms and some other places too without losing enough fat.

and with that approach, the more you eat, the more muscle you will gain, right? kindof true, but you gain fat from bulking by having extra food your body isnt using solely for recovery. the more you eat at that point, the more will be burnt off by your metabolism, or stored as fat, however, if you gained muscle more slowly, just enough to allow your muscles to recover, and enough so your metabolism takes up the extra, instead of storing as fat, then you will gain muscle without gaining fat (with extra supplements, a great diet, training, and cardio of course)

that was my initial plan, but if i could just do a good body recomp, thats perfect with me. in fact, i think this week i will do what derek did, only with a carb cycling factor, high carbs on training days (surplus), low carbs on off days (deficite).

either way, ill report any results a week after i get my supps. (3 days from now)

[BluSilver]

Originally Posted by E_Scapegoat

and with that approach, the more you eat, the more muscle you will gain, right? kindof true, but you gain fat from bulking by having extra food your body isnt using solely for recovery.

I didn't say that.

Let's say one can efficiently use 300 cals over maint to build new muscle and the rest stored as fat. If you bulk at 500 cals over, you would only "send" 200 cals to fat every day. And with proper supplementation and training, it will be even less. After a month, you have 6000 cals going to fat? How many calories are in a pound of fat? Like 2300? That's maybe 3 lbs of fat. Easy to lose in 2 weeks.

If you bulk at 100 over maintenance (cyclically with high and low cal days), you will not gain a single pound of muscle in a month, unless you have a NICE arsenal of supplements. You might gain a pound in 6 weeks where you would have gained like 3 above, after cutting. It just doesn't make sense to pic two antithetical processes and try to do them at the same time. It's like you're cancelling the effects of the other one out.

[RedIron392]

I have been doing a four week bulk and a two week cut. I cycle carbs on the bulk as well as the cut. Higher carbs bulking and lower cutting. A long cut after a long bulk can cause a lot of muscle loss and the longer you cut, the harder it is to drop fat becouse the body adapts to lower calories. In a year you end up with eight months of buking and four cutting without the drag of doing a 12 week cut in one stretch. Use the four week bulk to lift heavy with max intensity and the two week cut to deload and rest the CNS.

Later

[BluSilver]

Originally Posted by RedIron392

I have been doing a four week bulk and a two week cut. I cycle carbs on the bulk as well as the cut. Higher carbs bulking and lower cutting. A long cut after a long bulk can cause a lot of muscle loss and the longer you cut, the harder it is to drop fat becouse the body adapts to lower calories. In a year you end up with eight months of buking and four cutting without the drag of doing a 12 week cut in one stretch. Use the four week bulk to lift heavy with max intensity and the two week cut to deload and rest the CNS.

Later

This actually sounds like your best bet. You can stay relatively lean all year.

[monkeydan]

Originally Posted by E_Scapegoat

The problem with the average bulk, then cut, with me, is my body hasnt been reacting to cutting very well, i shaved off way too much muscle off my arms and some other places too without losing enough fat.

and with that approach, the more you eat, the more muscle you will gain, right? kindof true, but you gain fat from bulking by having extra food your body isnt using solely for recovery. the more you eat at that point, the more will be burnt off by your metabolism, or stored as fat, however, if you gained muscle more slowly, just enough to allow your muscles to recover, and enough so your metabolism takes up the extra, instead of storing as fat, then you will gain muscle without gaining fat (with extra supplements, a great diet, training, and cardio of course)

Unfortunately you can't choose where to partition extra calories. You can have some control over it with diet and training, but even if one eats just a little over maintenance it'll depend on the individual as to whether they'll gain predominantly muscle or not. A lot of people will probably find that they are just spinning their wheels trying to maintain such a small calorie surplus and trying to figure out whether they're actually gaining weight/muscle or not. At the end of it all, I think it's going to be just as quick, if not quicker, to do a bulk/cut cycle rather than bulk with such a small deficit.

I think holding calories around maintenance is a great plan for someone new to training as they should be able to do a pretty good recomposition. But for most other people I think they'd be better off choosing and sticking to one goal at a time. For a bulk, this would mean enough of a surplus to gain weight at an appreciable rate.

[LatissimusDorsi]

Originally Posted by RedIron392

I have been doing a four week bulk and a two week cut. I cycle carbs on the bulk as well as the cut. Higher carbs bulking and lower cutting. A long cut after a long bulk can cause a lot of muscle loss and the longer you cut, the harder it is to drop fat becouse the body adapts to lower calories. In a year you end up with eight months of buking and four cutting without the drag of doing a 12 week cut in one stretch. Use the four week bulk to lift heavy with max intensity and the two week cut to deload and rest the CNS.

Later

Except deloads are the time most muscle is put on. Not in a deficit.

[RipStone]

Instead of trying to do something that is extremely difficult to achieve(lose fat, gain muscle simutaneously), execute a plan that your sucess rate will be much higher. That is, clean bulk. IMO this approach would be perfect for you. Heck, like BluSilver said, "A lot of people can lose bf% while bulking, but not actual bodyfat. They do this by increasing their LBM/fat ratio", and with a clean bulk your odds of doing this are pretty good.

Again, you a timed carb diet and cycle your carbs as well. Check out this post here too(#6)...

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ighlight=clean

[maffie2]

Originally Posted by monkeydan

Unfortunately you can't choose where to partition extra calories. You can have some control over it with diet and training, but even if one eats just a little over maintenance it'll depend on the individual as to whether they'll gain predominantly muscle or not. A lot of people will probably find that they are just spinning their wheels trying to maintain such a small calorie surplus and trying to figure out whether they're actually gaining weight/muscle or not. At the end of it all, I think it's going to be just as quick, if not quicker, to do a bulk/cut cycle rather than bulk with such a small deficit.

I think holding calories around maintenance is a great plan for someone new to training as they should be able to do a pretty good recomposition. But for most other people I think they'd be better off choosing and sticking to one goal at a time. For a bulk, this would mean enough of a surplus to gain weight at an appreciable rate.

What determines an appreciable weight? 20lbs per month? 15lbs per month? 3 lbs per month?

[monkeydan]

Originally Posted by maffie2

What determines an appreciable weight? 20lbs per month? 15lbs per month? 3 lbs per month?

Depends. 1-2 lbs per week seems about right for most people. But if you're trying to gain 0.25 lbs per muscle a week because you don't want to gain any fat then how do you know if you're even putting any weight on? With such a small calorie surplus it seems difficult to balance everything out to that degree. What if you walk a bit further than you normally do? What if the labels on the food you eat aren't very accurate?

I think such an approach will work for some people, but as I posted above, you can't partition all additional calories into muscle only. A lot of this is under genetic control.

In my opinion, people would be better off trying to do one or the other (gain muscle or lose fat) rather than attempt such a fine balancing act that it's difficult to determine whether progress is being made. I guess all you can do is give it a go and see what happens, I know people who have had success that way, others who haven't.

[E_Scapegoat]

Originally Posted by monkeydan

Depends. 1-2 lbs per week seems about right for most people. But if you're trying to gain 0.25 lbs per muscle a week because you don't want to gain any fat then how do you know if you're even putting any weight on? With such a small calorie surplus it seems difficult to balance everything out to that degree. What if you walk a bit further than you normally do? What if the labels on the food you eat aren't very accurate?

I think such an approach will work for some people, but as I posted above, you can't partition all additional calories into muscle only. A lot of this is under genetic control.

In my opinion, people would be better off trying to do one or the other (gain muscle or lose fat) rather than attempt such a fine balancing act that it's difficult to determine whether progress is being made. I guess all you can do is give it a go and see what happens, I know people who have had success that way, others who haven't.

1: ive been on a cut for a while, and even at the beginning things were slow, so i thought they were steady, but i havent been losing enough of just fat. my body, even with a good diet and great supps, doesnt really react too well to cutting, i can cut, but i lose too much muscle, as my test is waay down recently.

2: progress is being made if you feel like you lost fat (its your body, and its pretty obvious), your definition and possible size and strength increases. if you pay attention it wouldnt be that tough

3: it wouldnt be .25lbs a week, thats too small, more like .5-.75 (later on when my goal isnt to lose more fat, but to MAINTAIN). i just have a nice scale that i can average on depending on water weight, and if i walk more, i eat more. i mostly eat whole food, so its pretty accurate, and +1-5 or -1-5carbs wont kill you.