Will Ronnie Coleman be the greatest??

[Guardian]

On different threads of different nature I have frequently come accross different people claiming Ronnie will be the greatest of the past and of the future. Now its kool for people to liek the current champ, and I myself agree he is one great bber. But let us discuss and evaluate reality, I have also made a poll. I feel this thread may serve to help establish some understanding for the future.

Please look at what I have to say carefully, you will see that in the scheme of things it has great merit, feel free to object.

Reasons why I feel Ronnie will not stay the greatest bodybuilder if he even gets the title in the present

1. Despite recent dominance, Ronnie Coleman lost more Olympias, as well as placed outside the top 5 at Olympia more then any other Olympia winner in history. In addition, he lost to the Olympia wnner more then any other past Olympia winner (Frank Zane and Chris Dickerson tied for 2nd both losing 4 times to the olympia winner before winning). A "greatest" bodybuilder would logically be known to dominate for his pro career. In this regard Arnold, Lee Haney, and Dorian all lead only losing the Olympia one time and having very few pro losses outside the top 5.

2. Proportion- Ronnie has great proportions, but defiantly not "the best" in comparison to such guys as Shawn Ray, Flex Wheeler, Dorian, Samir Bannout , and Frank Zane. In particular his calves and in many Olympias tris seem to small compared to the rest of him.
http://www.louisville.edu/~maswai01/303.jpg

3. Waist/Abdominal Area- While I do realize more weight generally means weaker abs and a larger gut this isnt always the case. In particualar Is Nasser El Sonbaty who weighed 280 pounds in 96 and 97 yet had very good abs and very little gut distention. This shows that it is possible to achieve Ronnies weight without the gut. Ronnie has a 4 pack, this si not ideal.
http://body.builder.hu/imagebank/sta...El_Sonbaty.jpg

4. Conditioning- While Ronnie is a leader in conditioning he is by no means the greatest. Of past is Dorian yates who had a very grainy and defined look especially in the chest and lower back regions. In todays era we have Branch Warren who is displaying similar conditioning, and sometimes appears to be even more grainy then Dorian.

http://www.powershack.net/Bodybuildi...nch-Warren.jpg
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/show/9...anLargePic.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/gymcentertr...s2/yates25.jpg

5. Vascularity- Although it isnt as dominate in judging anymore it stil is a part of bodybuilding. Ronnie does have great Vascualrity, but it isnt the best either. Remember Rich Gaspari?
http://www.ronnie.cz/_img/Clanky/1948_1.jpg

6. Lat Insertion
http://www.ironage.us/virtual/champs02.jpg
A close look at this comparison will show that Ronnie is about in the middle for lat insertions while Columbo is number 1 with Dorian 2nd. Ronnie has done a phenominal job developing his back, but his lower lats insert higher compared to some past Olympia winners as mentioned.

7. Muscle Striations- Ronnie again has decent striations. But many in history and present have better strations then him. In particular Franco /arnols chest, flex wheeler as a whole, or Porter Cotrells delts.

8. Posing- Ronnie isnt the worst poser, but he certainly isnt the best either. Hell I rmember the 05 Olympia after he through off the vest he seemed to keep bouncing on one foot, maybe he thinks its kool but to me he looked like an idiot. Past bodybuilders who are better posers inculde Arnold, Zane, and Milos Sarcev.

Going by this analysis it is far from likely Ronnie will remain the greatest even if you believe he is now. The only category Ronnie disctinctly may lead is in shear mass, but as mentioned Nasser was also close (assuming similar heights). However, it is quite naive to believe that with modern supplemention, genetics, and gear, that someone will not be able to not onyl lead in mass but have other qualities above and be the best at those as well. Only then can a real argument be made the the greatest bodybuilder ever has walked the stage.

Now as a side topic, this is why I so strongly admire Dorian and defend him. While he may not lead in the shear mass area. He is a top contender for the top conditioning, lat inseration/development, and proportion while at the same time being in the top 5 for shearmass which imo overall leaves him in a good position.

[kethnaab]

tough call overall.

ronnie doesn't lack in any bodyparts though, aside from calves. yeah, he has a big belly, which is his REAL problem, but he has fully developed everything else. You can't say his delts are "average", nor can you say his triceps are "average", you can only say they "aren't as ridiculously overwhelmingly huge as his pecs/biceps/quads/whatever"

tough call. shame ronnie had to get pregnant. he was definitely on his way to being the best ever, overall, IMHO.

[mickey mouse]

who cares how long it took ronnie to be top doug? everyone was skinny once. it has nothing to do with what they have achieved.

and dorian yates biceps where ****.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by mickey mouse

who cares how long it took ronnie to be top doug? everyone was skinny once. it has nothing to do with what they have achieved.

and dorian yates biceps where ****.

Any sport incorporates history into being the best. How good can a coach be if he had 100 losses before he started to win. How good can a hockey player be remembered if it took him 12 seasons before he scored a goal. And as I stated it is not the only determinante but it cannot be denied that it is part of being the greatest. As far as your second remark...

http://body.builder.hu/imagebank/sta...rian_Yates.jpg
http://www.canoe.ca/CHealthImages01/yates_0611.jpg
I wouldn't quite say his biceps were "****"

[Kilburn]

http://www.ironage.us/virtual/champs02.jpg

looking at this picture you cannot tell me that arnold doesn't have the biggest and most defined calves of any of them.

Also, his cuts are the deepest.

Arnold is the greatest bodybuilder of all time.

[mickey mouse]

Originally Posted by Guardian

Any sport incorporates history into being the best. How good can a coach be if he had 100 losses before he started to win. How good can a hockey player be remembered if it took him 12 seasons before he scored a goal. And as I stated it is not the only determinante but it cannot be denied that it is part of being the greatest. As far as your second remark...

http://body.builder.hu/imagebank/sta...rian_Yates.jpg
http://www.canoe.ca/CHealthImages01/yates_0611.jpg
I wouldn't quite say his biceps were "****"

there is a huge gap from where his biceps end to his elbow. he has short biceps




i'm not saying he didnt deserve to win but that some maayor weakness and to say he had one of the best is not right

[Guardian]

I have never on this forum said Dorian had some of the best biceps. You find that post and point me to it...

That is why Arnold is my other favorite

[coldfusion71]

Originally Posted by Guardian

On different threads of different nature I have frequently come accross different people claiming Ronnie will be the greatest of the past and of the future. Now its kool for people to liek the current champ, and I myself agree he is one great bber. But let us discuss and evaluate reality, I have also made a poll. I feel this thread may serve to help establish some understanding for the future.

Please look at what I have to say carefully, you will see that in the scheme of things it has great merit, feel free to object.

Reasons why I feel Ronnie will not stay the greatest bodybuilder if he even gets the title in the present

1. Despite recent dominance, Ronnie Coleman lost more Olympias, as well as placed outside the top 5 at Olympia more then any other Olympia winner in history. In addition, he lost to the Olympia wnner more then any other past Olympia winner (Frank Zane and Chris Dickerson tied for 2nd both losing 4 times to the olympia winner before winning). A "greatest" bodybuilder would logically be known to dominate for his pro career. In this regard Arnold, Lee Haney, and Dorian all lead only losing the Olympia one time and having very few pro losses outside the top 5.

2. Proportion- Ronnie has great proportions, but defiantly not "the best" in comparison to such guys as Shawn Ray, Flex Wheeler, Dorian, Samir Bannout , and Frank Zane. In particular his calves and in many Olympias tris seem to small compared to the rest of him.
http://www.louisville.edu/~maswai01/303.jpg

3. Waist/Abdominal Area- While I do realize more weight generally means weaker abs and a larger gut this isnt always the case. In particualar Is Nasser El Sonbaty who weighed 280 pounds in 96 and 97 yet had very good abs and very little gut distention. This shows that it is possible to achieve Ronnies weight without the gut. Ronnie has a 4 pack, this si not ideal.
http://body.builder.hu/imagebank/sta...El_Sonbaty.jpg

4. Conditioning- While Ronnie is a leader in conditioning he is by no means the greatest. Of past is Dorian yates who had a very grainy and defined look especially in the chest and lower back regions. In todays era we have Branch Warren who is displaying similar conditioning, and sometimes appears to be even more grainy then Dorian.

http://www.powershack.net/Bodybuildi...nch-Warren.jpg
http://www.worldtalkradio.com/show/9...anLargePic.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/gymcentertr...s2/yates25.jpg

5. Vascularity- Although it isnt as dominate in judging anymore it stil is a part of bodybuilding. Ronnie does have great Vascualrity, but it isnt the best either. Remember Rich Gaspari?
http://www.ronnie.cz/_img/Clanky/1948_1.jpg

6. Lat Insertion
http://www.ironage.us/virtual/champs02.jpg
A close look at this comparison will show that Ronnie is about in the middle for lat insertions while Columbo is number 1 with Dorian 2nd. Ronnie has done a phenominal job developing his back, but his lower lats insert higher compared to some past Olympia winners as mentioned.

7. Muscle Striations- Ronnie again has decent striations. But many in history and present have better strations then him. In particular Franco /arnols chest, flex wheeler as a whole, or Porter Cotrells delts.

8. Posing- Ronnie isnt the worst poser, but he certainly isnt the best either. Hell I rmember the 05 Olympia after he through off the vest he seemed to keep bouncing on one foot, maybe he thinks its kool but to me he looked like an idiot. Past bodybuilders who are better posers inculde Arnold, Zane, and Milos Sarcev.

Going by this analysis it is far from likely Ronnie will remain the greatest even if you believe he is now. The only category Ronnie disctinctly may lead is in shear mass, but as mentioned Nasser was also close (assuming similar heights). However, it is quite naive to believe that with modern supplemention, genetics, and gear, that someone will not be able to not onyl lead in mass but have other qualities above and be the best at those as well. Only then can a real argument be made the the greatest bodybuilder ever has walked the stage.

Now as a side topic, this is why I so strongly admire Dorian and defend him. While he may not lead in the shear mass area. He is a top contender for the top conditioning, lat inseration/development, and proportion while at the same time being in the top 5 for shearmass which imo overall leaves him in a good position.

\
lame you can pick anybody and try to make issues where there are none . getting on someone because they werent great right away is stupid. how many losing and no playoff season did jordan have before he finally won one? roywilliams the basketball coach lost many times before he won the title. bill belicheck the coach of the patriots was fired and had to do a coordiantor job before he won. some people peak later in their careers holding that against someone is beyond stupid, that is the way things go sometimes. nasser comparison is laughable all you do is keep saying they weigh the same what the hell does that have to do with anything ?they weigh the same but are not even close in presentation how many olympias did nasser win? o i forget none such a lame tactic on your part you really need to get dorains wang out of your ass.

lets subjectively take one bodypart out of every bodybuilder to justify you flawed view. ronnie has the whole package you cannot subjectively take out one part from every body builder that has walked the earth and compare it to one person, then in turn hold that against them because all the bodyparts arent the greatest of all time. joe montana doesnt have the best stats out of every quarterback that has ever lived but, he did one damn thing that is win when you win you will get to be universally known as the best in your field and that is what you are missing, too blinded by your obsession with dorian.

[coldfusion71]

lol and on top of everything you are saying he cant be the best because someone else may come along in the future? that has to be one of the worst statements i have ever read . using your logical you cannot make any declorations about anything because the best may be coming around the corner. jordan you are not the best because a kid playing in middle school could be better than you one day, so illogical.

[hithard]

remeber when arnold was competing there was the same stuff available now as there was then. He is the best so far. I mean come on how many bbers can right a dictionary on bbing? a few yes but with new, ground braking techniques and exercises? not many

[Gino30]

Originally Posted by Kilburn

http://www.ironage.us/virtual/champs02.jpg

looking at this picture you cannot tell me that arnold doesn't have the biggest and most defined calves of any of them.

Also, his cuts are the deepest.

Arnold is the greatest bodybuilder of all time.

That's the thing with Arnold - he did have deep cuts. This aspect was immensely instrumental to his overall look. Of course, he had beautiful shape and mass also. All 3 of these I believe make him the greatest. He captured all three important qualities into a unique package.

Also, anything above 4 Mr Olympia’s in my book warrants consideration for the greatest, but I gather from the initial post that we're talking more than just trophies....we're talking the greatest body.....in my eyes, Arnold ‘s physique was the most beautiful ever....the most inspiring....the greatest!

It's always been that way and always will.

PS... Ronnie will go down as the winningest of all-time and the best, but not the greatest. That’s a distinction we must make.


George

[BlackMountain]

Yeah
Arnold is the Greatest.
Beauty, Brains and Brawn.

[HulkRage2006]

Ronnie is numero uno

[Uriel_da_man]

Originally Posted by mickey mouse

Ronnie's biceps aren't any lower.

http://digilander.libero.it/mikementzer/Coleman11.jpg

[AangleN]

jackasses, dorian TORE his left bicep, hence why it looks 'short'.

also, in that picture, dorians calves smoke arnolds and everyone elses in that picture. the picture really isn't to scale either, it makes arnold look much bigger than pretty much everyone else, which isn't the case.

will someone be 'better' than ronnie? it depends what you mean by better. win more olympias? who knows, i don't think ronnie really won all 8 hands down (see 2001, 2005), but he did clearly win most. if by greatest you mean fan favorite, then its tough to say since thats subjective.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by coldfusion71

\
lame you can pick anybody and try to make issues where there are none . getting on someone because they werent great right away is stupid. how many losing and no playoff season did jordan have before he finally won one? roywilliams the basketball coach lost many times before he won the title. bill belicheck the coach of the patriots was fired and had to do a coordiantor job before he won. some people peak later in their careers holding that against someone is beyond stupid, that is the way things go sometimes. nasser comparison is laughable all you do is keep saying they weigh the same what the hell does that have to do with anything ?they weigh the same but are not even close in presentation how many olympias did nasser win? o i forget none such a lame tactic on your part you really need to get dorains wang out of your ass.

lets subjectively take one bodypart out of every bodybuilder to justify you flawed view. ronnie has the whole package you cannot subjectively take out one part from every body builder that has walked the earth and compare it to one person, then in turn hold that against them because all the bodyparts arent the greatest of all time. joe montana doesnt have the best stats out of every quarterback that has ever lived but, he did one damn thing that is win when you win you will get to be universally known as the best in your field and that is what you are missing, too blinded by your obsession with dorian.

I think your blinded by your love for Ronnie.

Unfortuantly, your reading comprehension seems to be the thing thats laughable here. My comparison with Nasser is not to say Nasser was better, but to prove that it is possible to be 280 pounds without a gut and with good abs, which Nasser had, you cannot denie that.

My post is to adress two things, one is to compare Ronnie at every aspect of bodybuilding to other top bodybuilders. As my first post shows, there are many aspects to bodybuilding aside from mass and Ronnie loses nearly all of them. The second aspect is to take the above areas and infer that based on Ronnies standing in them it is far from likely he would remain the greatest even if you believe he is now...

You claim that being the best is based on somebody winning. That is quite laughable to say the least. Nearly all football fans will say that Barry Sanders was the best running back, however he does not have the most wins, hmmm maybe because he retired just like Arnold, Haney, and Dorian...
Many fans also think Dan Marino may have been the best overall quarterback, however how many superbowl wins did he have??

[coldfusion71]

Originally Posted by Guardian

I think your blinded by your love for Ronnie.

Unfortuantly, your reading comprehension seems to be the thing thats laughable here. My comparison with Nasser is not to say Nasser was better, but to prove that it is possible to be 280 pounds without a gut and with good abs, which Nasser had, you cannot denie that.

My post is to adress two things, one is to compare Ronnie at every aspect of bodybuilding to other top bodybuilders. As my first post shows, there are many aspects to bodybuilding aside from mass and Ronnie loses nearly all of them. The second aspect is to take the above areas and infer that based on Ronnies standing in them it is far from likely he would remain the greatest even if you believe he is now...

You claim that being the best is based on somebody winning. That is quite laughable to say the least. Nearly all football fans will say that Barry Sanders was the best running back, however he does not have the most wins, hmmm maybe because he retired just like Arnold, Haney, and Dorian...
Many fans also think Dan Marino may have been the best overall quarterback, however how many superbowl wins did he have??

nasser abs werent that great to begin with, so the parallel to ronnie is stupid. there is alot more to a bodybuilder then hey great abs and you know it . marino and sanders were great individual talents sanders never shopwed up in the playoffs, all you have to do is look at his regular season ypc and his playoff ypc it is not even close. he is the best back talent wise but when is goes to propelling your team to the next level he couldnt do it, then he quit on his team. it may be justified but other backs have done more than him in a winning aspect. marino the stat king couldnt get his team over the hump, if the goal is to win and you do nothing but win what can you possibly hold against someone? that is what you set out to do it is as simple as that, those 2 players will go down as great talents but not the greatest because they never accomplished thier goal.

[Guardian]

Originally Posted by coldfusion71

nasser abs werent that great to begin with, so the parallel to ronnie is stupid. there is alot more to a bodybuilder then hey great abs and you know it . marino and sanders were great individual talents sanders never shopwed up in the playoffs, all you have to do is look at his regular season ypc and his playoff ypc it is not even close. he is the best back talent wise but when is goes to propelling your team to the next level he couldnt do it, then he quit on his team. it may be justified but other backs have done more than him in a winning aspect. marino the stat king couldnt get his team over the hump, if the goal is to win and you do nothing but win what can you possibly hold against someone? that is what you set out to do it is as simple as that, those 2 players will go down as great talents but not the greatest because they never accomplished thier goal.

Lets look at some facts rather then your bs....

http://football.about.com/gi/pages/p...t1=Submit+Vote

Despite what you say about Barry Sanders it seems to me that he is clearly favored as the best running back of all time.

It is quite ignorant to say someone has to win the most or alot to be considered the best....

[percussion8903]

theres no such thing as "the best there is, was, and will be"

[percussion8903]

Originally Posted by mickey mouse

there is a huge gap from where his biceps end to his elbow. he has short biceps

called genetics.

[mickey mouse]

Originally Posted by percussion8903

called genetics.

called flaw


and torn bicep my ass both of his bis look the same

[HomieStaysBuilt]

Originally Posted by Guardian

On different threads of different nature I have frequently come accross different people claiming Ronnie will be the greatest of the past and of the future. Now its kool for people to liek the current champ, and I myself agree he is one great bber. But let us discuss and evaluate reality, I have also made a poll. I feel this thread may serve to help establish some understanding for the future.

Please look at what I have to say carefully, you will see that in the scheme of things it has great merit, feel free to object.

Reasons why I feel Ronnie will not stay the greatest bodybuilder if he even gets the title in the present

1. Despite recent dominance, Ronnie Coleman lost more Olympias, as well as placed outside the top 5 at Olympia more then any other Olympia winner in history. In addition, he lost to the Olympia wnner more then any other past Olympia winner (Frank Zane and Chris Dickerson tied for 2nd both losing 4 times to the olympia winner before winning). A "greatest" bodybuilder would logically be known to dominate for his pro career. In this regard Arnold, Lee Haney, and Dorian all lead only losing the Olympia one time and having very few pro losses outside the top 5.

The fact that you bring up Ronnie in almost all of your posts means that Ronnie's the greatest. Check your facts too. Franco Columbo lost to the Olympia winner 5 times before he won his first Olympia. And I'm not too sure what's the point of you continuously bringing up Ronnie's previous placings before he won his first. Kevin levrone got second place his first olympia, was always in the top 5, and has 0 olympias. Ronnie has 8. It doesn't matter how you start your career, it's how you finish it. Ronnie's finishing up as the greatest of all time.

[HealthyLivin4Me]

Guardian, for a young guy I admire your posts, you put a lot of effort into them and even iff ppl don't agree with you they gotta give you that!

Now, being an avid football fan I can tell you that in no way shape or form was Barry Sanders the best running back ever, not even close. Maybe all the ppl who responded to the poll were very young. Jim Brown, OJ, Walter Payton are the top 3 and were all much better RBs then Barry Sanders. I did not see Brown or OJ in their prime but from talking to ppl who saw them both said they were unbelievable. Barry was more of a highlight reel then anything else.

I believe wins are a HUGE part of your legacy. Along with wins having a certain personality which exceeds your sport will make ppl percieve you as the greatest. Which is why Arnold will always be viewed as the greatest.

[Guardian]

I still say that if he hadn't torn his left biceps, Ronnie Coleman wouldn't be a multi-Olympia winner. Ronnie's huge and more complete than Dorian (overlooking the calf, forearm, and possible trap "shortcomings" next to Yates), but at the same weights, the two look totally different. At 257, Yates is hard as nails and totally dry. To approach that kind of conditioning Ronnie has to weigh ~245, as he did at the '01 Arnold. Even then he isn't near as bone-dry. So as far as im concerned Dorian outmasses him. That's especially evident when you realize Dorian is almost as hard at 270 (pre-Olympia pics in '93 again); he doesn't improve his conditioning significantly when he goes much below that weight.

[HomieStaysBuilt]

I googled 'dorian yates v-taper' and this is what came up.

[coldfusion71]

Originally Posted by Guardian

I still say that if he hadn't torn his left biceps, Ronnie Coleman wouldn't be a multi-Olympia winner. Ronnie's huge and more complete than Dorian (overlooking the calf, forearm, and possible trap "shortcomings" next to Yates), but at the same weights, the two look totally different. At 257, Yates is hard as nails and totally dry. To approach that kind of conditioning Ronnie has to weigh ~245, as he did at the '01 Arnold. Even then he isn't near as bone-dry. So as far as im concerned Dorian outmasses him. That's especially evident when you realize Dorian is almost as hard at 270 (pre-Olympia pics in '93 again); he doesn't improve his conditioning significantly when he goes much below that weight.

keep using your voodoo reasoning that really doesnt make any sense to justify your point . ronnie is bigger than yats no false science you can bring up can take that away. yates body was falling apart when he retired so you cant live off of what if and buts. you need to read and watch more football and other sports if you think dan marino and barry sanders are the best and thier respective positions. there is a distinction from having great numbers and being a great champion, which you dont seem to get yet.

[AangleN]

Originally Posted by mickey mouse

called flaw


and torn bicep my ass both of his bis look the same

yeah youre right it never happened. everyone and their mother is wrong. retard.

[The_One77]

I wouldn't say Ronnie is the greatest because of his lack of dominance.
He had many controversial decisions and if the judges had a slight different view Ronnie would of lost a few especially in 2001.
But in my opinion, he was better than Dorian......unbelievable size with sick conditioning (especially in 2005). But then again in this dayern age with it's access to more supplementary products, a bodybuilder from the present would be better than past.
So really, i think Ronnie has had the greatest physique on the history of the planet but as the champion.....I would say Dorian was better.

[ray mercer]

Originally Posted by coldfusion71

nasser abs werent that great to begin with, so the parallel to ronnie is stupid. there is alot more to a bodybuilder then hey great abs and you know it . marino and sanders were great individual talents sanders never shopwed up in the playoffs, all you have to do is look at his regular season ypc and his playoff ypc it is not even close. he is the best back talent wise but when is goes to propelling your team to the next level he couldnt do it, then he quit on his team. it may be justified but other backs have done more than him in a winning aspect. marino the stat king couldnt get his team over the hump, if the goal is to win and you do nothing but win what can you possibly hold against someone? that is what you set out to do it is as simple as that, those 2 players will go down as great talents but not the greatest because they never accomplished thier goal.

With all due respect The Lions and Dolphins were two of the ****tiest teams in the league at that team. Put Joe Montana on Miami and he doesn't earn a bowl either. Sanders is the best running back of all time with Payton and Brown right behind him. That's what pisses me off today, Brady is the most overrated QB in the league. The guy's a product of a system and a good line.

[coldfusion71]

Originally Posted by ray mercer

With all due respect The Lions and Dolphins were two of the ****tiest teams in the league at that team. Put Joe Montana on Miami and he doesn't earn a bowl either. Sanders is the best running back of all time with Payton and Brown right behind him. That's what pisses me off today, Brady is the most overrated QB in the league. The guy's a product of a system and a good line.

no they werent the dolphins got to the superbowl with marino and he choked in the game he was young but he still choked. sanders everytime they got into the playoffs would choke as well. one time in the playoffs against i think it was greenbay he had -3 yards for the game. his style was never condusive to winning, alot of times it was all or nothing a homerun type of back that cant grind it out. that works in the regular season but wont work in the playoffs, where the defense are alot better. you cannot rate sander who also quit on his team better than oj,brown,smith he had the best talent out of any back but that doesnt make him a better player.