lol..novax

[tryn2change]

this artcle reminded me of your constant bashing on anyone studying humanities...

Worried About India's and China's Booms? So Are They, by Thomas L. Friedman, Commentary, NY Times: The more I ... travel, the more I find that the most heated debates in many countries are around education. ... every country thinks it's behind. ... America agonizes that its ... public schools badly need improvement in math and science. I was just in Mumbai attending the annual meeting of India's high-tech association, ... where many speakers worried aloud that Indian education wasn't nurturing enough "innovators."

Both India and China, which have mastered rote learning and have everyone else terrified about their growing armies of engineers, are wondering if too much math and science — unleavened by art, literature, music and humanities — aren't making Indira and Zhou dull kids and not good innovators. Very few global products have been spawned by India or China.

"We have ... everyone going into engineering and M.B.A.'s," said Jerry Rao, chief executive of ... one of the top Indian outsourcing companies. "If we don't have enough people with the humanities, we will lose the [next generation of] V. S. Naipauls and Amartya Sens," he added, referring to the Indian author and the Indian economist, both Nobel laureates. ...

Innovation is often a synthesis of art and science, and the best innovators often combine the two. The Apple co-founder Steve Jobs ... recalled how he dropped out of college but stuck around campus and took a calligraphy course, where he learned about the artistry of great typography. "None of this had even a hope of any practical application in my life," he recalled. "But 10 years later, when we were designing the first Macintosh computer, it all came back to me. And we designed it all into the Mac. It was the first computer with beautiful typography." ...

Capital will now flow faster than ever to tap the most productive talent wherever it is located ... Hence the concern I found in India that it must move quickly from business process outsourcing ... into knowledge process outsourcing ... coming up with more original designs and products.

"We need to encourage more incubation of ideas ... to make innovation a national initiative," said Azim Premji, the chairman of ... one of India's premier technology companies. "Are we as Indians creative? Going by our rich cultural heritage, we have no doubt some of the greatest art and literature. We need to bring the same spirit into our economic and business arena."

But to make that leap, Indian entrepreneurs say, will require a big change in the rigid, never-challenge-the-teacher Indian education system. "If we do not allow our students to ask why, but just keep on telling them how, then we are only going to get the transactional type of outsourcing..." said Nirmala Sankaran C.E.O. of ... an Indian-based education company. "We have a creative problem in this country."...

[novax]

Im glad you made a thread for me. lol
That’s funny Steve Jobs partner Steven Wozniak gave a speech at my graduation and I met him personally.

He told us that engineers are unique because we are very scientific and logical. He also told us that at an engineering school, we take valuable solid courses instead of courses that are impractical.This guy is one of the smartest minds in America too.

You are quite the fool. Engineers are very creative and we think outside the box all the time.
I for example am an electrical engineer. The majority of the problems are solved by being analytical and creative.

Why is it that my school was rated number 6 in the nation and we took very limited amount of courses outside of science?Same goes with cal tech, MIT, Rose University, and several other top end engineering schools.

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.The U.S has the best universities period.
The best engineering school are in the U.S and I know exactly how the curriculum is because I have been researching where to get my masters. So answer this, how come a curriculum of pure science, combined with a co-op program ranked number 6 in the nation?

How come?


Goggle MIT curriculum. I already did because I was thinking of going there. They must be doing something right.

lol. You are an idiot.

[novax]

The problem is hands on experience and equipment. An education can get you only so far. You can not gain everything from a book.

That is India’s biggest problem. They produce allot of CS but not engineers becasause of this reason.

You are so naive.

For example, our parents are not good with computers because they did not grow up with them.
India is not good at mechanical engineering because they do not really grow up with cars.
You need the physical interactions to supplement the text.

The U.S universities have a wealth of research budget so the students get plenty of hands on experience. This helps their creativity.

I know plenty of well of engineers that do not have a clue about the arts..
And they are very intelligent and successful. Arts and the other liberal stuff are nice to know but are not critical for the success of an engineer.

[novax]

I am a perfect example. I have horrible writing skills, and I dont give a rats ass about liberal subjects. And guess what? I am great at my job and make a decent living. I design great engineering tools. Again, you have no clue. Im glad, that I can own you on this thread.

[guym]

"Short paragraphs are an insult to the reader."

-George Orwell.

[novax]

Originally Posted by guym

"Short paragraphs are an insult to the reader."

-George Orwell.

hmm. Ok.

[Dr Triceps]

Firstly, American schools aren't as bad as you would be led to believe. America takes in all students into the equation while most Asian and European schools omit the mentally handicapped, etc from their data.
Secondly, Novax is correct. Engineers must think outside the box to solve the problems they face. Engineers are creators and solvers by nature and without them we'd still be without fire and the wheel...and who the hell needs to be taught art, it's in you or it isn't. Art class is a scam.

[novax]

I could explain the constant problems I have at work..Some of the problems that arises are very complex and some are very simple. OMG. I love this job.

I repeat again, the problem with India is simply that they are only "book smart".

Experimenting is crutial.. Design of experiement. Often times, simulations and theoritical values can only get you so far. Calculations can only get you so far.


Experiements brings forth unknown variables and variables that are interdependent. Some of the issues I deal with are very challenging and require alot of "outside the box " thinking. Pure calculations and book smarts are not good enough.

[tryn2change]

Originally Posted by novax

You are quite the fool. Engineers are very creative and we think outside the box all the time.
I for example am an electrical engineer. The majority of the problems are solved by being analytical and creative.

you just didnt get the point of the article did you? i guess those horrible writing skills also imply horrible comprehension skills as well.

Originally Posted by novax

Why is it that my school was rated number 6 in the nation and we took very limited amount of courses outside of science?Same goes with cal tech, MIT, Rose University, and several other top end engineering schools.

what does this have anything to do with anything? why all defensive?

Originally Posted by novax

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about.The U.S has the best universities period.
The best engineering school are in the U.S and I know exactly how the curriculum is because I have been researching where to get my masters. So answer this, how come a curriculum of pure science, combined with a co-op program ranked number 6 in the nation?

well we have about a 20 year leap over everyone else but we will see if we can hang on to that advantage.

[temporary]

Originally Posted by novax

Goggle MIT curriculum. I already did because I was thinking of going there. They must be doing something right.

lol. You are an idiot.

I acctually googled 'goggle.'

Calling other people 'idiots' is immature and pety. Grow up.

[Flexed_out]

I believe the point of the article was that straight math and science courses do not help people INNOVATE. Innovation is the creation of something new, not solving an existing problem

It also says that math and science people are dull. Any truth novax? lol

[novax]

Originally Posted by Flexed_out

I believe the point of the article was that straight math and science courses do not help people INNOVATE. Innovation is the creation of something new, not solving an existing problem

It also says that math and science people are dull. Any truth novax? lol

Math and science is critical and liberal arts are optional.
I already mentioned that I know alot of innovators taht did not take any liberal arts. I know design engineers, test engineers, product engineers, ect.
They sure the hell innovate and they did not take a lick of liberal art courses.

To innovate: You need hands on expierence. You need to be able to take things apart and also be able to conceptially see what is going on. Engineers are able to understand the mechanics and or conceps of the matter rather then just the mathmatics. This has nothing to do with art.

[novax]

Originally Posted by temporary

I acctually googled 'goggle.'

Calling other people 'idiots' is immature and pety. Grow up.

Sure buddy. I was also drinking at the time. Grow up? I simply spoked the truth, when this punk thinks that liberal arts is anything but a scam.
Do you guys actually want me to posts the Enineering schedule for both mechanical and electrical engineers?

"Innovation is often a synthesis of art and science, and the best innovators often combine the two."
Not everyone can understand mathmatics and science naturally. It is quite impossible actually. However, I have met alot of engineer friends from college who were just naturally artistic and creative. Thus, taking art courses and liberal art courses is not critical. You simply gain them through society influences.

You guys still didnt answer my question. Why is it that the very best engineering schools in the world have very limited mandatory liberal art courses? The stats for my school is that 1 in 10 past grads become CEOs and many of them become inventors. I already have a friend that has a patent out and is starting up a business. EXPLAIN.

[novax]

Conclusion: Creativity comes naturally by social influences and other environmental factors from early childhood. There is scientific study about this. The U.S produce awesome engineers because we do not take liberal art nonsense courses which are scams. Hands on experience is essential in having a conceptial understanding of what is going on besides pure mathmatics. This understanding allows engineers to modified and inovate better ideas.

India does not have the same culture as the U.S and they also do not have the same hands on experience do to lack of resources. Techonology is often times influenced by the media. This is SOCIETY influences, not something you learn from a class room.

Liberal art courses are pointless because most people gain their knowledge and culture through life experiences.

[novax]

Originally Posted by tryn2change

you just didnt get the point of the article did you? i guess those horrible writing skills also imply horrible comprehension skills as well.


what does this have anything to do with anything? why all defensive?



well we have about a 20 year leap over everyone else but we will see if we can hang on to that advantage.

How do you think we got that 20 year leap?

lol. We are still producing top notch engineers.

[TricepsNGirls]

Liberal arts education is crucial. I am asian and so is novax. Although our ancient cultures certainly stressed creativity and innovation, recent trend has lead us towards stark objectivity and into technical labor in the hard sciences.

It is a dull, dull life. The world needs art, music, and literature. It also needs social ideals and cultural diversity. It needs dissenters, idealists, and dreamers.

Many of us hold soulless jobs. We would be mere machines without such things as the arts and humanities to supplement our lives.

If you want to discount the arts and humanities, stop eating good food, stop visiting nice venues, stop listening to music, stop going to parks, stop reading novels, stop thinking about family and children, and stop helping others.

[VikingMan]

Originally Posted by TricepsNGirls

If you want to discount the arts and humanities, stop eating good food, stop visiting nice venues, stop listening to music, stop going to parks, stop reading novels, stop thinking about family and children, and stop helping others.

So what you're saying is that Liberal Arts, in the academic sense, is the source for good food, nice venues, music, parks, novels, family and children, and charity? Wow. Maybe you should take a class in reality, because that picture that your liberal arts "art" teacher just painted for you is, ummm, a bit off.

Being a Software Engineer personally, I think I'm inclined to agree with novax here. Creativity, the source of all that is beautiful in our world, is not something you can teach. It's something you have to explore, and find for yourself.

Interesting discussion. I haven't really given this particular subject much thought.

[VikingMan]

You know why the US really has so many great engineer's don't you? It's because we all played with lego's as kids. That's the real reason right there, legos. And maybe linkin-logs.

[novax]

Originally Posted by TricepsNGirls

Liberal arts education is crucial. I am asian and so is novax. Although our ancient cultures certainly stressed creativity and innovation, recent trend has lead us towards stark objectivity and into technical labor in the hard sciences.

It is a dull, dull life. The world needs art, music, and literature. It also needs social ideals and cultural diversity. It needs dissenters, idealists, and dreamers.

Many of us hold soulless jobs. We would be mere machines without such things as the arts and humanities to supplement our lives.

If you want to discount the arts and humanities, stop eating good food, stop visiting nice venues, stop listening to music, stop going to parks, stop reading novels, stop thinking about family and children, and stop helping others.

I already argued that it is socially motivated and not something taught in the class room. Its about culture.

Culture can promote creativity. Trying to teach that **** in a class is not effective at all. So, I think I agree with you and disagree.

I repeat again for the dense people on the forum. its culturally induced by society and not taught in schools...

90 percent of creativity is during the stages of childhood.

[novax]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

You know why the US really has so many great engineer's don't you? It's because we all played with lego's as kids. That's the real reason right there, legos. And maybe linkin-logs.

Yes. That is true. Again, it brings up the subject of mind to real world interaction.

Playing with legos simulates the mind. Working on cars as a child, simulate the mind for creativity and innovation. All of this has been statistically calculated.

America has been blessed with both the right culture and the right resources for the children.

[novax]

I wonder where tryn2change went.

I own him on nearly every thread. Thus, he hates me. lol

[tryn2change]

Originally Posted by novax

How do you think we got that 20 year leap?

lol. We are still producing top notch engineers.

going by the cuts in education and r&d at home and the rise of talent abroad.

what i am curious about is why did you get so defensive about engineers and innovation when 1.) i didnt even discuss the two and 2.) the article has a different take then what you think.

heres some more:

http://www.marketingpower.com/content25974.php
http://www.hcc.hawaii.edu/~pine/libart/ceolibarts.html

[A & B]

Talking about engineers is funny.

But it's true. You guys have a complex that you're special, so logical and rational... Almost above other fields. It's funny to listen to it comming from another engineer. I have buddies in engineering that tell me the exact same thing all the time. They laugh at me, I laugh at them.

I don't see anything special about engineers, or any of the hard sciences for that matter. I like the hard sciences though, because you can derive concrete conclusions and data from them, unlike most other fields. But once again, this is mostly "normal" science... we already talked about this crap in another thread.

But then again, I have to put it all in perspective, being in humanities (history) myself, so I chuckle.

[The Experiment]

There's a huge shortage of Engineers in the US. Many US companies go to India and China because there's not enough in the US. I've seen people with 2.5 GPAs get hired for $45,000 a year. Most firms are pretty desperate to find any kind of Engineer so they go out and pick up even the dregs.

I never played with Legos except for the Islander set. That set kicked ass. I pretended I was a pirate with my own treasure island.

I haven't been in any culture. In my family, higher education is frowned upon. I was dragged down for a while but I got back up to speed but thats mostly because I felt motivated to push myself.

[TricepsNGirls]

Originally Posted by VikingMan

Being a Software Engineer personally, I think I'm inclined to agree with novax here. Creativity, the source of all that is beautiful in our world, is not something you can teach. It's something you have to explore, and find for yourself.

Creativity is not something you can teach, but wouldn't you agree that it is something you can either stimulate or stifle?

Computer science may require critical thinking and problem solving, but you adhere to strict syntax and algorithms. I've lived in Silicon Valley all my life - both my parents and just about everyone around me are computer engineers. My world is the antithesis of creativity.

[Stinker]

Novax is right. It's shameful to see smug arts-types trying to play down the role engineers play in this world.

The problem with education is that it is socialized. You want more arts? Send your kid to a school of excellence in music. You want more math? Send them to a private school designed to prepare kids for an engineering degree.
The free market can solve these problems, the government can't.

One reason india and China may be suffering from a lack of innovation is mentioned in the article, although the article doesn't list it as a problem: "Both India and China, which have mastered rote learning..." rote learning = knowing the answer, but having no idea why it's true.

[novax]

Originally Posted by The Experiment

There's a huge shortage of Engineers in the US. Many US companies go to India and China because there's not enough in the US. I've seen people with 2.5 GPAs get hired for $45,000 a year. Most firms are pretty desperate to find any kind of Engineer so they go out and pick up even the dregs.

I never played with Legos except for the Islander set. That set kicked ass. I pretended I was a pirate with my own treasure island.

I haven't been in any culture. In my family, higher education is frowned upon. I was dragged down for a while but I got back up to speed but thats mostly because I felt motivated to push myself.

That is true.

If I may asks, what are you studing for? You seem to be one of the few liberals that posts stuff that I actually like reading and wont bash.

[novax]

Originally Posted by A & B

Talking about engineers is funny.

But it's true. You guys have a complex that you're special, so logical and rational... Almost above other fields. It's funny to listen to it comming from another engineer. I have buddies in engineering that tell me the exact same thing all the time. They laugh at me, I laugh at them.

I don't see anything special about engineers, or any of the hard sciences for that matter. I like the hard sciences though, because you can derive concrete conclusions and data from them, unlike most other fields. But once again, this is mostly "normal" science... we already talked about this crap in another thread.

But then again, I have to put it all in perspective, being in humanities (history) myself, so I chuckle.

I averaged a 95 in my humanity courses. They were easy as hell. OMG. Such a waste of time. That is of course my opinion. I skipped clases all the time and always scored in the top 5 percent of the class.

I do not lie by the way.

Yes, you are right though with that engineers tend to be head strong. They have the right to be. The curriculum and the job is hard as hell and it requires alot of critical thinking and thinking outside of the box. You have no idea how stressful the job is and how much thinking is involved.

I think doctors are even more headstrong... I have met quite a few people with doctor degrees in science... They are ultra headstrong and they should be.

[Fidelis]

novax, advances in the liberal arts made possible this system of government to which you owe your education. There would be no university system without the liberal arts. There would be no democracy.

Engineers are an essential part of the modern era, but don't be so arrogant as to think that you can solve all the problems of the world. Philosophers and writers have done more for humanity than you know.

[novax]

Originally Posted by Fidelis

novax, advances in the liberal arts made possible this system of government to which you owe your education. There would be no university system without the liberal arts. There would be no democracy.

Engineers are an essential part of the modern era, but don't be so arrogant as to think that you can solve all the problems of the world. Philosophers and writers have done more for humanity than you know.

No one is even argueing that.
We are arguing that humanities are not important to engineers or scientists. Yes, writers are important because they reflect the culture and issues of that time period.

You are being vague. Care to expand upon your statement. Liberal arts are useless to a scientists. Its good to have some I supose. The problem now a days is that way too many people are going into the liberal arts because it is easy.

The majority of Americans do not want to go into the hard science because it is challenging.