Harvard: U.S. MIDDLE EAST POLICY DRIVEN BY ISRAEL

[Patrok]

WASHINGTON - The U.S. Middle East policy is not in America's national interest and is motivated primarily by the country's pro-Israel lobby, according to a study published yesterday by researchers from Harvard University and the University of Chicago.

Observers in Washington said yesterday that the study was liable to stir up a tempest and spur renewed debate about the function of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee lobby. The Fatah office in Washington distributed the article to an extensive mailing list.

"No lobby has managed to divert U.S. foreign policy as far from what the American national interest would otherwise suggest, while simultaneously convincing Americans that U.S. and Israeli interests are essentially identical," write the authors of the study.

John J. Mearsheimer from the University of Chicago's political science department and Stephen M. Walt from Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government do not present new facts. They rely mainly on an analysis of Israeli and American newspaper reports and studies, along with the findings of the Israeli human rights group B'Tselem.

The study also documents accusations that American supporters of Israel pushed the United States into war with Iraq. It lists senior Bush administration officials who supported the war and are also known to support Israel, such as Paul Wolfowitz, Doug Feith and David Wurmser. The authors say the influence of the pro-Israel lobby is a source of serious concern and write that it has even caused damage to Israel by preventing it from reaching a compromise with its neighbors.

Watch how fast Harvard back-tracks because the jews threaten their funding. Mark my words, within days, they will fold like a cheap camera.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/695227.html

[A & B]

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=735108

I posted this yesterday... there's several links to the study in my thread if anybody wants to read 81 pages.

I got negged, and the thread went away.

[A & B]

First of all, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the conclusions of this study, however.

I think many if not most people here will dismiss this out of hand, because they consider it to be anti-Semitic.

Anti-Semitism is, of course, a one-size-fits-all defense or accusation, that carries with it an unusual amount of persuasive power.

But is it anti-Semitic to say that the pro-Israel lobby in the US, which is a very powerful lobby at that, has at times directed the US foreign policy in ways which while they may benefit Israel, are not always compatible with US interests? I mean, it's AIPAC's job to lobby for what is best for Israel... not necessarily the US.

It's just food for thought. Having an intelligent discussion about US/Israel relations is not anti-Semitic, though some people here will still level that charge.

[LethalOnGuitarZ]

I wonder if Jews didn't exist what the world would be like now...

(I AM NOT ANTI SEMETIC, I AM JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT STATE OF AFFAIRS THE ENTIRE WORLD WOULD BE IN NOW.)

[Patrok]

Originally Posted by A & B

[url]I got negged, and the thread went away.

how surprising ...

[bulletproofsoul]

Originally Posted by A & B

First of all, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the conclusions of this study, however.

I think many if not most people here will dismiss this out of hand, because they consider it to be anti-Semitic.

Anti-Semitism is, of course, a one-size-fits-all defense or accusation, that carries with it an unusual amount of persuasive power.

But is it anti-Semitic to say that the pro-Israel lobby in the US, which is a very powerful lobby at that, has at times directed the US foreign policy in ways which while they may benefit Israel, are not always compatible with US interests? I mean, it's AIPAC's job to lobby for what is best for Israel... not necessarily the US.

It's just food for thought. Having an intelligent discussion about US/Israel relations is not anti-Semitic, though some people here will still level that charge.

I don't believe it is ani-Semitic, A & B. Israel is a state. Ultimately, the religion of most Israelis isn't relevant. The US has allies of may faiths. I don't know how much influence these groups have over actual policy. They are certainly well-funded and presidents attend fund-raisers with these groups before every election, but there are many powerful and wealthy interest groups in the US that are treated the same.

I think it is true that US foreign policy has been overly biased towards the state of Israel. It has been this way for decades and before these groups were so well-organized and wealthy. My own view is that this imbalance has indeed harmed US and Israeli interests and the lack of objectivity is probably one of the main reasons the US has failed to help resolve the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. The US must gain a more fair approach in order to become an effective mediator because I believe it is only the US who can help the parties reach a resolution in the end. Until the US can achieve a balanced policy, efforts will continue to fail. Both sides are intransigent and very difficult to deal with and need to be held accountable better.

It was a major shift in US policy to recognize officially the right of Palestinians to a state living side by side with Israel, which a majority of Palestinians and Israelis favor also, and a very important step. The implementation has not been effective, unfortunately. Both sides have failed to meet certain obligations and the US was not effective in holding either side accountable for those failures.

Looking at Mid-East policy as a whole, I think that OIL drives US policy far, far more than Israeli-American relations so I can't really go with the concept that US policy is so heavily driven by Israeli interest groups because I think that is obviously not true and it seems pretty obvious where the US thinks its main interest lies:

OIL.

[Patrok]

Originally Posted by bulletproofsoul

the US thinks its main interest lies:

OIL.

the main interest for war in the middle east is not 'oil' this is michael moore liberal bull**** allowing them to avoid the real issue: ISRAEL

if its oil, they explain to me why the oil price are more high now that there is war in iraq ?

[bulletproofsoul]

Originally Posted by Patrok

the main interest for war in the middle east is not 'oil' this is michael moore liberal bull**** allowing them to avoid the real issue: ISRAEL

if its oil, they explain to me why the oil price are more high now that there is war in iraq ?

Please tell me you're joking. Oh...I guess you're serious.

Answer: Because they screwed it up. There was supposed to be tons more flowing out of Iraq. In fact, it was supposed to pay for the reconstruction of Iraq. Do you recall such promises from the Bush administration? I specifically recall Wolfowitz putting forth this pipedream in front of the Senate Armed Services Committe. There is now less flowing than ever out of Iraq and the Iranians are now able to use it as a blackmail tool, forcing the price even higher. The US had not planned on the insurgency and budgeted 8% for security. It is well above 20% and the pipelines keep getting sabotaged.

Is that Michael Moore liberal bull****? No, it is reality. I only wish it could be shrugged off so casually by such an excuse. The Iranians have outflanked the US...again. I'm sure that they are thrilled with how bogged down US power is in Iraq.

Certainly, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict and US involvement in it complicates matters and is an irritant in the region, but OIL motivates the US for very specific reasons that are far more tangible and immediate than Israel. We have a network of alliances with oil producing countries in the region that is very, very extensive.

Surely you knew that.

It isn't instability between the Palestinians and Israelis that is having an effect on oil prices.

[Patrok]

the econonic factors are secondary.

israel is the nation who pushed for war with iraq, and they are doing the same thing with iran as we speak.

[Patrok]

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/print/mear01_.html

[Canadian Nanook]

Originally Posted by LethalOnGuitarZ

I wonder if Jews didn't exist what the world would be like now...

(I AM NOT ANTI SEMETIC, I AM JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT STATE OF AFFAIRS THE ENTIRE WORLD WOULD BE IN NOW.)

where we would be without jews, hmmm
No theory of relativity or some of the greatest scientific breakthroughs of all time- Einstein
No Freud, meaning no breakthroughs in psychiatry
No marx meaning no idea of communism
No jesus, thus no christians, thus paganism running rampant
no moses, no bible, none of the monotheistic religions, christianity and islam.
will post more later, now i have an essay to write

[Patrok]

Originally Posted by Canadian Nanook

...
No marx meaning no idea of communism...

is that a bad thing ?

[stevothedevo]

Originally Posted by Patrok

is that a bad thing ?

Look at what 'democracies' have done to the world and re-ask that question.....War, poverty, inequality, unbridled greed - senseless multi-billionaires working until their graves when at an early age they had enough for 10 lifetimes, rape of earth's resources for a quick buck, labour exploitation, a growing divide between the ricjh and poor which I predict will FORCE the poor to have to try to take us on.etc. etc.

[A & B]

Originally Posted by Patrok

the econonic factors are secondary.

israel is the nation who pushed for war with iraq, and they are doing the same thing with iran as we speak.

I disagree 100%.

Oil is, and always has been the concern in the Middle East for the US, long before they supported Israel the way they do now.

US support for Israel really only stepped up after 1967, the US even went so far as to pressure Israel to withdraw after the Suez Campaign in '56, and wouldn't sell Israel valuable weapons prior to the mid 60's.

The US's interest in the Middle East has always been oil, Iraq is one of the oil producing states. It is oil, there is no doubt about it.

Israel is secondary, by far IMO.

[Patrok]

Originally Posted by stevothedevo

Look at what 'democracies' have done to the world and re-ask that question.....War, poverty, inequality, unbridled greed - senseless multi-billionaires working until their graves when at an early age they had enough for 10 lifetimes, rape of earth's resources for a quick buck, labour exploitation, a growing divide between the ricjh and poor which I predict will FORCE the poor to have to try to take us on.etc. etc.

and communist is better ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAQHAHAHAH !!!!!!

[TricepsNGirls]

Originally Posted by Patrok

and communist is better ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAQHAHAHAH !!!!!!

People may be lazy under communism but all the forementioned things problems will be reduced.

[DTGG]

Originally Posted by TricepsNGirls

People may be lazy under communism but all the forementioned things problems will be reduced.

If lazyiness and greediness could be reduced, then communism could very much work. But for now, capitalism works.

[stevothedevo]

Originally Posted by Patrok

and communist is better ?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAQHAHAHAH !!!!!!

Care to address the gaping deficiencies in Democracy in practice before gunning down Communism??

[drjjg]

Originally Posted by stevothedevo

Care to address the gaping deficiencies in Democracy in practice before gunning down Communism??

No, no,no.. questioning the status quo(as far as our capitalist democracies go) automatically means you're a communist, didn't you hear?

[A & B]

Originally Posted by stevothedevo

Care to address the gaping deficiencies in Democracy in practice before gunning down Communism??

Now that's off topic

[Vargas]

Originally Posted by Patrok

the main interest for war in the middle east is not 'oil' this is michael moore liberal bull**** allowing them to avoid the real issue: ISRAEL

The quicker the American public realizes this, the better. American soldiers cannot continue to die for Israel.

[ElMariachi]

Originally Posted by LethalOnGuitarZ

I wonder if Jews didn't exist what the world would be like now...

(I AM NOT ANTI SEMETIC, I AM JUST CURIOUS AS TO WHAT STATE OF AFFAIRS THE ENTIRE WORLD WOULD BE IN NOW.)

Someone else would catch the blame? Christians would probably be the ones behind all the conspiracies, pulling all the strings, people love to invent new boogeymen.

[Jamiepoole]

Originally Posted by A & B

First of all, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the conclusions of this study, however.
.

What a surprise, another liberal 'standing in the middle of the road' stance.

But you know what they say about standing in the road for too long...

[A & B]

Originally Posted by Jamiepoole

What a surprise, another liberal 'standing in the middle of the road' stance.

But you know what they say about standing in the road for too long...

So you feel that I'm a quintessential liberal pretending to be "objective" about it?

[1devil]

Originally Posted by Vargas

The quicker the American public realizes this, the better. American soldiers cannot continue to die for Israel.

This administration is all about Christian fundamentalism. Christian fundamentalists love to support Israel Because if all Jews return to Israel Jesus will return. However, only those Jews that convert to Christianity will be spared the hellfire of the end of days. The Christian right is just the kind of friend Israel does not need!!! So if you think still US soldiers are dying for Israel,you are clearly not paying attention to what is going on in this country.

[Jamiepoole]

Originally Posted by A & B

So you feel that I'm a quintessential liberal pretending to be "objective" about it?

I just think it's funny that's how just about all of your opinions are.

That's what a liberal is to me. Undecisive, unable to make hard choices.

[A & B]

Originally Posted by 1devil

This administration is all about Christian fundamentalism. Christian fundamentalists love to support Israel Because if all Jews return to Israel Jesus will return. However, only those Jews that convert to Christianity will be spared the hellfire of the end of days. The Christian right is just the kind of friend Israel does not need!!! So if you think still US soldiers are dying for Israel,you are clearly not paying attention to what is going on in this country.

Christian Zionism is an interesting topic, but I still don't believe that it is a major factor.

[1devil]

Originally Posted by A & B

Christian Zionism is an interesting topic, but I still don't believe that it is a major factor.

Christian fundamnetalism is not the only factor, but it is a huge one. I wish these crazy bastards would just go away. They are not helping Israel. These people are nothing but a polarizing force.

[IAmPaulSung]

From what I understand, we really need Israel because we have a relatively small sphere influence within the Middle East.

[JYD]

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