Overtraining or is it Under Nutrition and Under Rest?

[Baldsnake]

I was watching Science Channel and the recreation of the building of the Pyramids. Those slaves worked a lifetime, six days a week, 12 hour days on gruel and water. What if the slave drivers gave them a whey protein drink spiked with dextrose and essential fats twice a day and a one hour nap at noon?? Would they have had larger stronger slaves?? YOU BET!! Then I watched some goofey cable channel that had the current Cirque du Sole Las Vegas show on non stop. Those athletes perform twice daily six days a week. Overtrained?? I think not. So how do we get into these don't work a body part more than four times a month silly ass paradigms?

Just this morning Wonder Boy reminded me about my preaching REST to all my trainees back in the 80s. Rest you see was a good nights sleep and a nap where/when ever possible. Avoiding late night partying and booze was part of the program. We also recalled the Barbarian Brothers montra...."There is no such thing as overtraining...just under nutrition and under rest". When I want to bump start a body part to grow I always hit it two days in a row. When I competed I trained twice a day with a nap at noon. I hit every body part 4 times + a week and hard. I just upped the protein to 2 gms. per body weight pound and kept highly hydrated. The high hydration prompted me to double my vit/min intake.

Wonder Boy missed the last few days so when he came this morning would'nt you know it....I did squats, back and delts two days in a row. When I got home I threw 60 grams of whey in the blender and chased down 4 oatmeal/raisin cookies. I feel pumped, hard and zoned. I could hardly keep my paws off that Super Bowl Deli Plate.

If you are injured, negative protein intake, have a sleep problem, stressfull life (well don't we all), low on hormones, improper lifting, clueless...then yes you can overtrain quickly. Otherwise we can post on and on about shortcuts, pro hormones, crazy ass routines and all we are doing is treading water. They way I see it is that the choice is ours...."train it often, feed it and rest it and they (muscles) will come".

OK gang...I ready....beat me up.

[Mr. Someday]

Although you won't find me agreeing on hitting body parts 4 times/week, I agree with you on your general premis. I've often felt that "overtraining" is a result of under-nurishment, nurishement includes rest, or sleep in my case. During contest prep I was hitting the weights 6x/week and cardio every day, often twice/day (and no short 20 minute session either). My nutrition was dead on and I snuck in naps whenever I could, in fact, I made naps part of my schedule whenever possible. I lost almost no strength through 18 weeks of this and actually increased my squat weight by about 10% (this I attribute to the StepMill day in and day out).

So, sorry Baldie......no argument from me.

[lukamar]

Originally Posted by Baldsnake

Those slaves worked a lifetime, six days a week, 12 hour days on gruel and water.

Archaeologists in Egypt have unearthed some interesting sites in the last couple of years and have now readjusted their thinking about who actually were the builders of the pyramids. While slaves were used in their construction they have now found that a high percentage of workers that died during the construction were buried with artifacts that slaves would not have possessed and they lived in formal communities during construction. Autopsies on the mummies of these people show that they were not malnourished. This has lead to a theory that a high percentage of the workers on the pyramids were normal Egyptians, working a few months to a year or two at a time not as slaves but more as conscripts or volunteers. Another recent theory is that rich Egyptians sent their work forces to work on the pyramids to gain favor with the Pharaoh.

[ChocoChick]

Originally Posted by Baldsnake

Then I watched some goofey cable channel that had the current Cirque du Sole Las Vegas show on non stop. Those athletes perform twice daily six days a week. Overtrained?? I think not. So how do we get into these don't work a body part more than four times a month silly ass paradigms?

The Cirque du Soleil Factor

As a physiologist, 2001 turned out to be a profoundly influential year in my life. Specifically, that was the year that I first attended the Cirque du Soleil show called Mystere. The show opened up my mind to accept training methodologies that I'd never previously considered. And it subsequently led to many of my most effective training regimes — regimes that I've never written about, until now.

I heard about the show through various clients of mine, but I never would've guessed what I was about to see. For those of you who aren't familiar with Cirque shows, I can tell you that they're some of the most invigorating, inspirational, and mind-blowing displays of physical prowess that you'll ever encounter. Not only do these performers possess remarkable levels of strength and flexibility, but they also have some of the most extraordinarily-developed bodies that you'll ever see.

Full article: http://www.t-nation.com/findArticle....5-132-training

FWIW, I am in agreement with you.

[Gunn27]

Very interesting topic for debate Baldie.

Here is Waterbury's latest "more is better" follow up to Perfect 10 that dbflgirl posted. That article focused on hitting one or two body parts more often; this one advocates high frequency training for the whole body. I have been pouring over this for about a week, and I am considering trying this approach. Even at age 43 I seem to have excellent recovery ability as long as each individual workout session is kept at or below 70 mins.

Since I switched from a 3 day split (per week) to working out every other day, I have seen better results from my workouts. I believe I might be suited to high frequency training, in fact I suspect I may need it to optimize my results. I intend to dive in to the plan outlined in this link after my next break… we’ll see what results it yields in comparison to my previous endeavors.


http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=905832

[ctgblue]

Sometimes it's just "overtraining"
People recuperative powers vary, some guys can do 20 set for one bodypart and recover in two days, some guys can do 12 and it takes 4.
It's all individual.
if you are eating right and getting enough rest, you gotta let your body tell you what is right.

[GREENFEATHER]

Baldie, whatever happened to David and Peter Paul? I was amazed at those 2 and their psychotic approach to bodybuilding, 500 lb reverse beches are still amazing to me. I still watch DC CAB and laugh my ass off at those 2 and Mr. Rythym's words of wisdom.

[Baldsnake]

Chad Watertbury is a great writer. Thanks for that link. I shall read his other work. An area I do not agree with him on is the specific exercise selection and progression week to week. Anyone doing this advanced of a routine should have enough variety in his/her bag of tricks to hit all the body parts properly. But, I guess he (Chad) is being your silent workout partner and you are following along. I have always believed in form, full range of motion, intensity and most important...time under load. Also, I like to mix it up...never knowing what we are doing until we walk into the gym. If you trick the body it can never take you forgranted and must grow to survive. One can do legs for example 3 days in a row. Day 1. Squats and hamstring curls Day 2. Stiff leg dead lifts and leg press machine Day 3. Inverted (upside down) leg press and leg extensions. You might wish to skip mowing the lawn and cleaning out the gutters this weekend.
GVT on a particular body part fits in nicely. A week of 80% of max 5x5s is fun. Crazy ass chit like we do....sled pulling and stair climbing with a wheel in each hand (Farmers Walk) will blow your skirt up. At the end of six days you have by yourself hand packed and unpacked an 18 wheeler moving van (without a lift gate)....work acomplished.
Feather....last time I saw a Barbarian brother was about 10 years ago in Venice Beach on a Harley with a pony tailed blond behind him. He had on shorts which exposed legs like on a side of beef.
Also...believe it or not....55 years ago I was a great speller in school. Now I'm fighting back Sometimers, AKA Oldtimers. Glad you all can decifer my stuff.

[Baldsnake]

Mr. Someday is correct in questioning 4+ times a week per body part. Let me explain. I never did lay out routines in my writing days because as I have noted...I never know what I am going to do that day until I walk thru the gym door. Sometimes a body part gets hit dead on, sometimes as an assisting muscle group. All workout under one hour. So here goes a recent random example without sets/reps:

Monday: Dumbell box squats with shrug at the top with wrist straps
Mid calf stiff leg dead lift into a clean
Weighted V-bar chins to the chest
One arm cable pull downs
Tuesday: Weighted dips
Flat bench dumbell press
Incline dumbell press
Flat bench dumbell pull overs
Wednesday: Sled pulling
A. forward with belt arong waist
B. rearward
C. forward with hand grips doing chest press movement
D. rearward doing cable row movement
Thursday: arm marathon (bis tris forearm)
Flies incl. incline/side delt/rear delt
Friday: Leg press/calf press
Dumbell clean press from a deep squat
Hamstring curls
Hammer machine back rowing
Saturday: Farmers walk including stair climbing using wrist straps
Smith machine rear delt militarys
Smith machine upright rows
Chins
Sunday : rest

Everyday is abbs with medicine ball and hypers after workout

So without counting...did we accidently engage each body part 4 times? Close? I see legs M-W-F-S
back M-T-W-S
chest T-W-Th and a little S
delts almost each day somewhat
arms yipes almost each day to a degree

Good grief...I need more sleep and protein.

[phikappa]

Originally Posted by Baldsnake

I was watching Science Channel and the recreation of the building of the Pyramids. Those slaves worked a lifetime, six days a week, 12 hour days on gruel and water. What if the slave drivers gave them a whey protein drink spiked with dextrose and essential fats twice a day and a one hour nap at noon?? Would they have had larger stronger slaves?? YOU BET!! Then I watched some goofey cable channel that had the current Cirque du Sole Las Vegas show on non stop. Those athletes perform twice daily six days a week. Overtrained?? I think not. So how do we get into these don't work a body part more than four times a month silly ass paradigms?

Just this morning Wonder Boy reminded me about my preaching REST to all my trainees back in the 80s. Rest you see was a good nights sleep and a nap where/when ever possible. Avoiding late night partying and booze was part of the program. We also recalled the Barbarian Brothers montra...."There is no such thing as overtraining...just under nutrition and under rest". When I want to bump start a body part to grow I always hit it two days in a row. When I competed I trained twice a day with a nap at noon. I hit every body part 4 times + a week and hard. I just upped the protein to 2 gms. per body weight pound and kept highly hydrated. The high hydration prompted me to double my vit/min intake.

Wonder Boy missed the last few days so when he came this morning would'nt you know it....I did squats, back and delts two days in a row. When I got home I threw 60 grams of whey in the blender and chased down 4 oatmeal/raisin cookies. I feel pumped, hard and zoned. I could hardly keep my paws off that Super Bowl Deli Plate.

If you are injured, negative protein intake, have a sleep problem, stressfull life (well don't we all), low on hormones, improper lifting, clueless...then yes you can overtrain quickly. Otherwise we can post on and on about shortcuts, pro hormones, crazy ass routines and all we are doing is treading water. They way I see it is that the choice is ours...."train it often, feed it and rest it and they (muscles) will come".

OK gang...I ready....beat me up.

I love it! I think too much is made of overtraining. However, you won't catch me doing squats and back two days in a row. Yowza!

Thanks Baldie.

[jaguarr]

Oh, I think under-resting is a big contributor to what results in over-training. Time is our biggest commodity these days. No one has enough, and we're all trying to cram as much as we possibly can into increasingly shorter days. No doubt that many of us skimp on the sleep as a result, trying to do everything we seem to want to. I know that's an issue for me that I have to keep in check and make sure I'm getting enough sleep. If I don't, not only does my training start to suffer (and my associated gains) but the rest of my life seems to get FUBAR when I develop a sleep deficit.

jag

[guitarlifter]

IMO, you have to listen to your body. I have slow recuperative abilities, my DOMS last 1-2 days longer than most people. I went on a high frequency training scheme some years back and ended it when I tore my left pec. I'll admit I was making gains when I got injured. But I feel that training should give at least as much consideration to injury prevention as to gaining as quickly as possible. I think one can recoup more quickly from moderate-high rep programs than super heavy-low rep programs (very heavy sets stress connective tissues more). Connective tissues just do not heal as quickly as muscle, and it is the connective tissues that will suffer injuries from high frequency training. Now I'm no expert and this is all just my opinion. But try squating 5X5 heavy mon, wed, and friday for 6 months and see how you feel.

[Obadiah!]

Originally Posted by ctgblue

Sometimes it's just "overtraining"
People recuperative powers vary, some guys can do 20 set for one bodypart and recover in two days, some guys can do 12 and it takes 4.
It's all individual.
if you are eating right and getting enough rest, you gotta let your body tell you what is right.

I completely agree. I too have noticed that it is much easier for me to overtrain as I get older. I believe this is natural. Most of us can recall days when we were in our teens or twenties putting in a long, hard day's work with minimal or no physical effect on our body the next day. As one advances in age in it obvious that we experience more DOMS, and for longer periods. Additionally, we can experience a greater general sense of fatigue in our bodies following intense activity. So, while I am a firm believer in adequate rest, truly, it is one's own body that should be heeded to tell us when we are doing to much, or conversly, when we can step it up another level.