VERY INTERESTING READ: A soldier from Iraq tells what weapons are working

FreshMintBlue · 12-01-2005, 09:23 AM

This is quit a good read acctually...

Quote:

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early '06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at "Camp Blue Diamond" in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a bird's eye view's opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because it's lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that's fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

mike_d · 12-01-2005, 09:24 AM

yea, I've read this, its interesting

FreshMintBlue · 12-01-2005, 09:24 AM

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts 'em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. "Ma deuce" is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put 'em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45's are being re-issued en masse.

FreshMintBlue · 12-01-2005, 09:25 AM

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700's. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcock's record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the about the "old" body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IED's was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. We've all seen the videos.

FreshMintBlue · 12-01-2005, 09:27 AM

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefire's, and the troops love 'em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, it's the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47's The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ****. Undisciplined "spray and pray" type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Let's just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordan's area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated "shape charges" (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IED's are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. That's why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

FreshMintBlue · 12-01-2005, 09:28 AM

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordan's NCO's lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage "inside the wire". Jordan's base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and "Google earth" for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly "foreigners", non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the "rat line" which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that we've been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in "sacrifice squads". Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt.'s, the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80's. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why we're seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber ****. The new strategy is simple: attrition.
The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a **** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqi's are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a ****. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawi's use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqi's were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqi's are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see **** like "Are we losing in Iraq" on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).
[/quote]

k9mpgsd · 12-01-2005, 09:30 AM

Have to say never had the jamming problems, got to really keep them clean. I worked as an armorer and a MP and found that 90% of the weapon jamming problems (M16) were from improperly maintained rifles. Clean regularly, daily under sandy conditions and lightly lube.... not too much attracts the dust

Saw........ piece of crap.....

9MM didn't like it, lliked the .45 better

.50 grin need I say more?

nice post Freshmint hate seeing all teh bad media not showing the truth

mike_d · 12-01-2005, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshMintBlue

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Ak's and RPG's directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordan's base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast mover's, mostly Marine F-18's, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night.

Not the smartest of enemies are they

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshMintBlue

The first thing our guys are told is "don't get captured". They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a **** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

But very vicious

LatsMakeTheMan · 12-01-2005, 09:34 AM

Gun guys, help me out here:

1. M2 .50 Cal Machine Gun: Please tell me this thing is mounted on a helicopter or something? How in the hell else could you control something that big

2. I thought AK's fired a round bigger than .308? I thought they fired a 7. something........

LatsMakeTheMan · 12-01-2005, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreshMintBlue

When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and that's the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeo's (Allah's Waiting Room).

God.....how stupid can you get?

NuggzTheNinja · 12-01-2005, 09:41 AM

This has been discredited numerous times.

The guy doesn't even know the correct name of the SAW.

That's M249 SAW, not M243. And it's not drum fed, it's belt fed.

Google Earth for recon? Yeah right. Have you ever used google earth?

It's not up-to-date as far as the times, and would prove no more useful than a map.

This guy is full of crap, IMO.

THUNDERGOD · 12-01-2005, 09:42 AM

When I was in the service I carried a .45 since I was a combat medic 91-A, I was issued a side arm only. We didn't have the SAW or the M-60 replacement when I was in.
Back in the 1940's when the U.S. was first considering switching from the .45 to the 9mm I believe it was General Patton who said, "I've seen enemy soldiers take hits from a 9mm and still come at you..... A .45 slug makes them sit down and think about things"

NuggzTheNinja · 12-01-2005, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THUNDERGOD

When I was in the service I carried a .45 since I was a combat medic 91-A, I was issued a side arm only. We didn't have the SAW or the M-60 replacement when I was in.
Back in the 1940's when the U.S. was first considering switching from the .45 to the 9mm I believe it was General Patton who said, "I've seen enemy soldiers take hits from a 9mm and still come at you..... A .45 slug makes them sit down and think about things"

Some 9mm loads will expand to .47".

In other words, depending on the load, 9mm can be less effective, or more effective, than .45 ACP.

Then again, in a military environment, where anything but FMJ is pretty much outlawed, it's not gonna fly.

Still though...a .45 to the stomach and a 9mm to the stomach might as well be the same thing. Unless you hit CNS tissue, you aren't going to put the person down.

LatsMakeTheMan · 12-01-2005, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by THUNDERGOD

I believe it was General Patton who said, "I've seen enemy soldiers take hits from a 9mm and still come at you..... A .45 slug makes them sit down and think about things"

lol

Patton........is there anything he can't do?

Grind4Mine · 12-01-2005, 10:38 AM

Great post, very interesting read, keep it coming with those crazy vids u always post

k9mpgsd · 12-01-2005, 10:51 AM

we would hump the .50 around (little bit) It is a three man carry if you have the tripod. Pain in the @ss if you have to carry it.

usually we mounted it on the humvee (tore the turrets up but we used it) bounces the humvee around a bit also.

Miss the M60 the m249 wasn't really much of a replacemnet went from a 7.62 to a 5.56 and the feedtrays are plastic and wear down real bad causing misfires. Then heaven help you if you have to use the stupid M-16 clip adapter, worked like crap. They told you to use it under extreme emergency...might as well throw it at them if you get to that.

the 9mm ball...useless and yeah thats all we got for them too. The nine is ok if you can get the right rounds....

The Rob · 12-01-2005, 11:14 AM

Great post! That was a really interesting read.

Geno · 12-01-2005, 11:16 AM

This is spot on with what I hear. The 9mm military round is a piece of junk that requires a head hit to stop anything. The .45's KE will stop very well even with a crappy soft tissue hit - you have to compare apples to apples - all mil spec rounds are fmj. The various m16's, m4's etc. are superb weapons if you realize the limitations and you are not in a VERY dusty environment. The .223 will not go through cinderblock or even thick earth walls whereas the m14's .308 will. The M2 is usually on a ring or pedestal mount on some sort of vehicle although it can be mounted on a tripod and the whole system (limited ammo included) can be carried by three men. The ak47 fires a 7.62mmx39 round - .30 caliber and slighty less speedy than the .308 nato. I have buddies in the standard and specops forces still in theatre and they universally despise the press that they have to work with.

EGuard03 · 12-01-2005, 11:24 AM

The M249 can be your friend or a pain in the ass. All depends on the weapon. I had a pretty old one in Afghanistan. Definitely refurbished atleast once. Shot like a dream though. Only one jam in 6 drums(200rd type) of ammo fired with no barrell change. Was caused buy a belt link snaging on the cheap plastic drums. The 100rd cloth beltbags issues by the army are much sturdier. Love it or hate id rather take the SAW than a M-16 into a firefight. Nothing like going cyclic to keep someones head down, or to cut it off.

Me and my baby(I miss her):

nick912 · 12-01-2005, 11:26 AM

very sweet posting here.. reps to freshmint

Bad_Vibes · 12-01-2005, 11:33 AM

Although I don't agree the m16 can't be kept clean enough to fire reliably, I do agree the rounds are to small. I know all the theories about its travel inside the body and what not. But a 7.62 doesn't mess around.

Bad_Vibes · 12-01-2005, 11:33 AM

Although I don't agree the m16 can't be kept clean enough to fire reliably, I do agree the rounds are to small. I know all the theories about its travel inside the body and what not. But a 7.62 doesn't mess around.

jmonty · 12-01-2005, 11:39 AM

another bad thing about the body armor is what it is made out of.. i don't think i should go into specifics now that i think of it, but it is pretty obvious.

Geno · 12-01-2005, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGuard03

The M249 can be your friend or a pain in the ass. All depends on the weapon. I had a pretty old one in Afghanistan. Definitely refurbished atleast once. Shot like a dream though. Only one jam in 6 drums(200rd type) of ammo fired with no barrell change. Was caused buy a belt link snaging on the cheap plastic drums. The 100rd cloth beltbags issues by the army are much sturdier. Love it or hate id rather take the SAW than a M-16 into a firefight. Nothing like going cyclic to keep someones head down, or to cut it off.

Me and my baby(I miss her):

Ammo is a lot heavier and cyclic rate is slower but the M60 is/was a far better weapon (esp if the tango is hiding in a house made of brick, mortar or cinder block). Talk to guys that have used both and they will all agree.

I'm glad yours was a good one.

"Love it or hate id rather take the SAW than a M-16 into a firefight." True - so true.

bluemarlin04 · 12-01-2005, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NuggzTheNinja

This has been discredited numerous times.

The guy doesn't even know the correct name of the SAW.

That's M249 SAW, not M243. And it's not drum fed, it's belt fed.

Google Earth for recon? Yeah right. Have you ever used google earth?

It's not up-to-date as far as the times, and would prove no more useful than a map.

This guy is full of crap, IMO.

its his dad writing the article from the sons account. Maybe he mixed up some things. The gunny in the rel/poli section said its about right.

EGuard03 · 12-01-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geno

Ammo is a lot heavier and cyclic rate is slower but the M60 is/was a far better weapon (esp if the tango is hiding in a house made of brick, mortar or cinder block). Talk to guys that have used both and they will all agree.

I'm glad yours was a good one.

"Love it or hate id rather take the SAW than a M-16 into a firefight." True - so true.

I do agree that the M60E3 is a very potent weapon. The Phillipino Marines we worked with loved them and employed them very effectively. If it were my choice I'd carry this bad boy. The newest offering from FN, the MK48. Basically the best features of the M240G (7.62mm rd, reliability) in a M249 sized package. I'm sure alot of grunts would love to have it. To bad infantry weaponry doesnt get the same funding as glamour projects like the Osprey or JSF.

SIM37 · 12-01-2005, 12:08 PM

Much as I liked reading about the weapons, I've used some of them during my Army days, and the M-16 WAS indeed pretty ****ty unless it is well maintained and relatively clean.

I'd like to put out some focus on the lights he mentioned. Many servicemen in the US I've read like to carry very high quality lights made by great companies, Surefire, Pelican, Steamlight, Gladius, Night Hawk to name a few.

In fact, I'm also a member of a flashaholic forum, where guys discuss about lights, their performances and modifying them. There are threads dedicated to servicemen in Iraq and members in that forum have actually sent lights to Iraq to the servicemen that appreciate these outstandingly reliable gifts.

The SurefireG2 mention is the cheapest in the surefire line and you really have to use it to experience how much light output it can churn out. Lets just say it'll put a 4D maglight to an enormous amount of shame.

The url to that forum is www.candlepowerforums.com

Geno · 12-01-2005, 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EGuard03

To bad infantry weaponry doesnt get the same funding as glamour projects like the Osprey or JSF.

I agree wholeheartedly. There are a plethora of SO m60's around that could be the basis for a COMPLETELY RELIABLE, portable, relatively high power squad weapon. No way it would cost much more than the 249. WTF? I never had to hump one around but I have shot the rifling out of a couple of them on the range and there is no comparison in terms of weight. Just guessing but I would say roughly 3 or 4 pounds off the already light at 19.6lbs e3.

BTW when I was active JSF wasn't glamour bro - it was f'cking secret - and still should be.

EGuard03 · 12-01-2005, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geno

BTW when I was active JSF wasn't glamour bro - it was f'cking secret - and still should be.

Wasnt trying to undercut the importance of these weapons systems in anyway. A grunts best friend is effective CAS. Just trying to point out that high profile projects such as new aircraft, ships, etc. tend to get more funding than less glamourus projects than say a new squad level weapon. Politicians love seeing fancy, new, expensive, and job creating weapon systems being produced by their districts. While neccesary strategically, a new do-it-all stealth aircraft isnt going to win the urban house to house wars we are fighting and will be fighting for years to come. The fact is more money needs to be poured into the boots on the ground. Better small arms, better armor, and better vehicles. I think the experiences being gained in Iraq and Afghanistan have proved this undeniably.

EGuard03 · 12-01-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geno

I agree wholeheartedly. There are a plethora of SO m60's around that could be the basis for a COMPLETELY RELIABLE, portable, relatively high power squad weapon. No way it would cost much more than the 249. WTF?

Also what happened to all those decomisioned .45s? From what I understand they are lying around mothballed in Army wharehouses. How bout breaking those out and upgrading them instead continuing to dump the tired and flawed M9 Berretta on us? I never meet one Marine who has happy to be carrying one. I guess its easier than admitting the mistake.