Winning in Iraq - and losing at home

[secondsight]

There are a number of methods of judging how a war is progressing. The American media knows none of them. Based on mainstream media reporting, many Americans, including some in elective office, are coming to the wrong-headed conclusion that we are losing our war in Iraq. The facts say otherwise.

A case in point: since the rise of the insurgency as a serious threat in late 2003, the Coalition has captured or killed dozens of members of the jihadist command cadre, ranging from local cell leaders to the deputy of (and designated successor to) Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.

What follows is a partial list of Islamofascist leaders killed or captured in Iraq over the past year (and a few weeks), including circumstances, location, and other relevant information:

9/23/04 – Sheik Abu Anas al-Shami, advisor to Zarqawi and spiritual leader of the terrorist group Monotheism and Jihad (Tawhid Al-Jihad), killed in Baghdad by U.S. airstrike.

11/09/04 – Abu Waleed Saudi, senior military aide to Zarqawi, killed in fighting west of Fallujah.

11/25/04 – The Iraqi government announces the capture of Abu Said, a major figure in Zarqawi’s Mosul network. Information came from local residents.

12/8/04 – U.S. Marines pick up Saleh Arugayan Khalil, AKA Abu Obaida, a cell leader in Ramadi. Tip came from locals. 12/12/04—Bassem Mohammad Hazim, AKA Abu Khattab, arrested by Marines in Ramadi. Along with Khalil, Hazim was involved in kidnaping and killing11 Iraqi National Guardsmen along with bombings and smuggling terrorists into Iraq. Once again, locals aided in the arrest.

12/14/04 – Prime Minister Iyad Allawi announces the shooting death of Hassan Ibrahim Farhan Zyda, a Zarqawi commander involved in “beheading innocents”. Two of his deputies arrested.

12/22/04 – Abdul Aziz Sa’dun Ahmed Hamduni, AKA Abu Ahmed, senior deputy to Zarqawi commander Abu Talha, arrested in Mosul. “Abu Ahmed admitted to receiving money and weapons from Abu Talha as well as coordinating and conducting terrorist attacks in Mosul.”

12/23/04 – Abu Marwan, senior commander responsible for conducting operations, purchasing weapons for Abu Talha’s terrorist group, and training terrorist cells, arrested in Mosul. Tipoff came from local residents.

12/30/04 – Fadil Hussain Ahmed al-Kurdi, AKA Ridha, captured along with two other terrorists. Ridha was responsible for facilitating communications between terror networks as well as coordinating terrorist movements. Brother of Umar Baziyani, a Zarqawi lieutenant captured in May.

1/15/05 – Sami Mohammed Ali Said al-Jaaf, AKA Abu Omar al-Kurdi, arrested in Baghdad with two others. Responsible for 32 carbombings, among them the August 2003 bombing of U.N. headquarters in Baghdad. “The most lethal of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi’s lieutenants.”

1/26/05 – Ali Mohammad, AKA Abdul Jalil, a leader of the Tawhid Al-Jihad group, killed during a Marine raid in Haditha, west of Baghdad.

2/20/05 – Taleb Mikhlef al-Dulaimi, AKA Abu Qutaybah, Zarqawi’s logistical planner, “responsible for determining who, when and how terrorist leaders would meet with al-Zarqawi,” caught in a raid in the town of Anah, 150 miles west of Baghdad. Iraqi forces also captured Ahmad Khalid al-Rawi, who arranged meetings for Zarqawi and occasionally worked as his driver.

3/09/05—Taifor Abdulsattar Malallah, al-Qaida emir for Baquba, northeast of Baghdad, arrested by Iraqi security forces. Bakir al-Hiraibi, a close aide, and five other cell members also bagged.

4/02/05 – Iraqi and U.S. forces arrest Mullah Mahdi, AKA Mehdi Moussa, and five other suspects (Mahdi’s brother, three Iraqis and a Syrian) inMosul.

4/26/05 – Ghassan Mohammed Amin Hussein al-Rawi arrested during a raid in Rawa, 200 miles west of Baghdad. Facilitated Zarqawi’s movements and infiltrated foreigners into Iraq. He also stole cars to convert into bombs and kidnapped civilians for ransom. Two of his lieutenants also arrested.

5/2/05 – Lieutenant Colonel Nabil Badri al-Nasseri surrenders to the Iraqi army in Tikrit. Nasseri was a member of Saddam’s tribe and a formerNational Guardsman responsible for attacks against U.S. and Iraqi forces in Salaheddin province north of Baghdad.

5/5/05 – Ammar al-Zubaydi, AKA Abu Abbas, captured by Iraqi forces in Baghdad. Responsible for many suicide car bombings and an attack on the Abu Ghraib prison in April. Documents seized at al-Zubaydi’s home indicated that he was preparing to assassinate a senior government official.

5/26/05 (announced)—Iraqi forces arrest Mullah Kamel al-Aswadi, the most-wanted terrorist in north-central Iraq, trying to bribe his way through a checkpoint in the town of Balad. In his car was found a global positioning system, multiple ID papers, a mortar scope, and U.S. currency. Al-Aswadi was involved in funding terror cells, terrorist training, and manufacturing car and roadside bombs.

6/4/05 – Umar Baziyani, Zarqawi’s number four and emir of Baghdad, captured by U.S. troops. He was sought in connection with a series of attacks on Coalition forces. Baziyani “has been helpful” in providing intelligence on three Zarqawi-network safe houses in Fallujah.

6/7/05—Jassim Hazan Hamadi al-Bazi, AKA Abu Ahmed, arrested in Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad. Al-Bazi built and sold (for about $18,000 each) remote-controlled bombs used in roadside attacks. Also an active dealer in missiles, guns, mortars and hand grenades.

6/14/05 – Mohammed Khalif Shaiker (or Sharkawa), AKA Abu Talha, surrenders to U.S. and Iraqi troops in a quiet neighborhood of Mosul. “One ofAbu Musab al-Zarqawi’s most trusted operations agents in Iraq”. Information from Mullah Mahdi led to Shaiker, along with a tip from a Mosul resident. Shaiker carried out at least 50 car bombings and 150 beheadings and assassinations.

6/15/05 – (announced) Abed Dawood Suleiman and his son, former army captain Raed Abed Dawood, picked up in a morning raid on their house in Khalidiya, west of Baghdad. Dawood was chief of Mohammed’s army, an armed group linked with Zarqawi.

6/26/05—(announced) Khalid Suleiman Darwish, better known as Abu Alghadiya, killed in the town of Qaim near the Syrian border. A Syriandentist, Darwish was number two in Iraq’s Al- Qaeda network and tipped to succeed Zarqawi. He cofounded the “Syria Warriors” group with Zarqawi in Afghanistan in1999, which later evolved into Monotheism and Jihad.

7/02/05 – Abdul Hamid Mustafa al-Douri, an aide to Zarqawi and head of the Salaheddin province Al-Qaida branch, captured in a joint Iraqi police and army operation in a village in northern Tikrit. A relative to Saddam Hussein’s aide Izzat Ibrahim, al-Douri was behind a number of car bombings.

8/14/05—Abu Zubair, AKA Muhammad Salah Sultan, shot dead in Mosul in an ambush by Iraqi forces. Known to be involved in several attacks, including one on a police station in Mosul which killed five policemen. Zubair was wearing a bomb belt filled with metal pellets when he was killed.

9/25/05 – Abdullah Abu Azzam, Zarqawi’s chief deputy, shot during a house raid in Baghdad. Azzam was emir of Baghdad “responsible for the recent upsurge in violent attacks in the city since April 2005”. A tip from an Iraqi civilian led to the raid.

10/16/05—(announced) Abu Dijana, a top Al-Qaida propagandist, captured shortly before the constitutional vote. Dijana was webmaster of the site “al-Qaida in Iraq,”, which featured graphic videos of suicide bombings and communications between Al-Qaida fighters.

10/19/05 – Yasir Sabhawi Ibrahim, son of Saddam’s half-brother Sabhawi Ibrahim Hasan al-Tikriti, arrested in a Baghdad apartment several days after Syrian authorities forced him to return to Iraq. Was a top financier of the insurgency.

10/15/05—Sa’ad Ali Firas Muntar al-Dulaimi, AKA Abu Abdullah, killed by U.S. troops along with 11 other jihadists in Ramadi. Responsible for executing terrorist attacks on Iraqi and Coalition forces in Ramadi and Fallujah.

10/25/05—Monem Shakem al-Qubaisi, chief terrorist financier for Fallujah, arrested by Iraqi troops.

10/27/05 – Nashwan Mijhim Muslet, (scroll down) Al-Qaida cell leader, killed in Mosul along with his chief of security, Nahi Achmed Obeid Sultan. Muslet was responsible for several filmed beheadings.

10/27/05 – Abu Du’a, Al-Qaida terrorist smuggler operating on the Syrian border, killed in an airstrike near Qiam.

10/31/05—Abu Umar and Abu Hamza, regional Al-Qaida Iraq leaders operating in the Husaybah area, killed by Coalition airstrikes. Umar specialized in bomb attacks and smuggling jihadists, while Hamza commanded several Al-Qaida cells.

11/05/05 – Ramadi terrorist leader Majid Adnon Swedowi captured by U.S. troops.

That’s thirty-nine. There are others – an unnamed known associate of Zarqawi killed in a strike on a Fallujah safe house last October, another unidentified figure, holding U.S./Jordanian citizenship, captured in Baghdad in 2004. And there are no doubt more we won’t learn about until all the intelligence value is wrung out of them.

A small number, you say? Think of what we’d be hearing if forty American unitcommanders had been killed or captured in the past year.

Every car bomb, every IED, every assassination is a weapon aimed at American public opinion. The same must be made true of Coalition victories. Success is not success if it remains unacknowledged. Progress in Iraq must be brought out of the shadows. Until it is, we’re not quite winning, no matter how many emirs we account for.

Our forces in Iraq have performed magnificently, but they cannot win the war at home. That is up to us. Too many of us are content to passively support the troops, and allow the media to sap national morale with a prefabricated story ignoring the facts. We cannot afford to be AWOL. It is time to engage in the combat of words and ideas on the home front. Our victorious forces deserve no less.

[coontang]

Big deal. When I stop hearing about soldiers being blown up every day, THEN I'll consider that maybe the war is going well.

[powerman2000]

Originally Posted by coontang

Big deal. When I stop hearing about soldiers being blown up every day, THEN I'll consider that maybe the war is going well.

Thats a dumb argument. Of course we are going to have some casualties.

And, you/we are NOT hearing about soldiers being blown up every day because its not happening.

[CitadelArmyJAG]

This was sent to me by a Semper Fi, east coast type. -----------------

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early 06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a birds eye views opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use.

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that fun in the middle of a firefight).

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma deuce is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45s are being re-issued en masse.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round.

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks record for confirmed kills with OVER 100.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bull**** about the old body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IEDs was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. Weve all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefires, and the troops love em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, its the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ****. Undisciplined spray and pray type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Lets just say they know better now.

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated shape charges (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IEDs are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. Thats why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordans NCOs lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage inside the wire. Jordans base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and Google earth for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

[CitadelArmyJAG]

Who are the bad guys?:

Most of the carnage is caused by the Zarqawi Al Qaeda group. They operate mostly in Anbar province (Fallujah and Ramadi). These are mostly foreigners, non-Iraqi Sunni Arab Jihadists from all over the Muslim world (and Europe). Most enter Iraq through Syria (with, of course, the knowledge and complicity of the Syrian govt.) , and then travel down the at line which is the trail of towns along the Euphrates River that weve been hitting hard for the last few months. Some are virtually untrained young Jihadists that often end up as suicide bombers or in sacrifice squads. Most, however, are hard core terrorists from all the usual suspects (Al Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas etc.) These are the guys running around murdering civilians en masse and cutting heads off. The Chechens (many of whom are Caucasian), are supposedly the most ruthless and the best fighters. (they have been fighting the Russians for years). In the Baghdad area and south, most of the insurgents are Iranian inspired (and led) Iraqi Shiites. The Iranian Shiia have been very adept at infiltrating the Iraqi local govt., the police forces and the Army. The have had a massive spy and agitator network there since the Iran-Iraq war in the early 80s. Most of the Saddam loyalists were killed, captured or gave up long ago.

Bad Guy Tactics:

When they are engaged on an infantry level they get their asses kicked every time. Brave, but stupid. Suicidal Banzai-type charges were very common earlier in the war and still occur. They will literally sacrifice 8-10 man teams in suicide squads by sending them screaming and firing Aks and RPGs directly at our bases just to probe the defenses. They get mowed down like grass every time. ( see the M2 and M240 above). Jordans base was hit like this often. When engaged, they have a tendency to flee to the same building, probably for what they think will be a glorious last stand. Instead, we call in air and thats the end of that more often than not. These hole-ups are referred to as Alpha Whiskey Romeos (Allahs Waiting Room). We have the laser guided ground-air thing down to a science. The fast movers, mostly Marine F-18s, are taking an ever increasing toll on the enemy. When caught out in the open, the helicopter gunships and AC-130 Spectre gunships cut them to ribbons with cannon and rocket fire, especially at night. Interestingly, artillery is hardly used at all. Fun fact: The enemy death toll is supposedly between 45-50 thousand. That is why were seeing less and less infantry attacks and more IED, suicide bomber ****. The new strategy is simple: attrition.

The insurgent tactic most frustrating is their use of civilian non-combatants as cover. They know we do all we can to avoid civilian casualties and therefore schools, hospitals and (especially) Mosques are locations where they meet, stage for attacks, cache weapons and ammo and flee to when engaged. They have absolutely no regard whatsoever for civilian casualties. They will terrorize locals and murder without hesitation anyone believed to be sympathetic to the Americans or the new Iraqi govt. Kidnapping of family members (especially children) is common to influence people they are trying to influence but cant reach, such as local govt. officials, clerics, tribal leaders, etc.).

The first thing our guys are told is don't get captured. They know that if captured they will be tortured and beheaded on the internet. Zarqawi openly offers bounties for anyone who brings him a live American serviceman. This motivates the criminal element who otherwise don't give a **** about the war. A lot of the beheading victims were actually kidnapped by common criminals and sold to Zarqawi. As such, for our guys, every fight is to the death. Surrender is not an option.

The Iraqis are a mixed bag. Some fight well, others aren't worth a ****. Most do okay with American support. Finding leaders is hard, but they are getting better. It is widely viewed that Zarqawis use of suicide bombers, en masse, against the civilian population was a serious tactical mistake. Many Iraqis were galvanized and the caliber of recruits in the Army and the police forces went up, along with their motivation. It also led to an exponential increase in good intel because the Iraqis are sick of the insurgent attacks against civilians. The Kurds are solidly pro-American and fearless fighters.

According to Jordan, morale among our guys is very high. They not only believe they are winning, but that they are winning decisively. They are stunned and dismayed by what they see in the American press, whom they almost universally view as against them. The embedded reporters are despised and distrusted. They are inflicting casualties at a rate of 20-1 and then see **** like Are we losing in Iraq on TV and the print media. For the most part, they are satisfied with their equipment, food and leadership. Bottom line though, and they all say this, there are not enough guys there to drive the final stake through the heart of the insurgency, primarily because there aren't enough troops in-theater to shut down the borders with Iran and Syria. The Iranians and the Syrians just cant stand the thought of Iraq being an American ally (with, of course, permanent US bases there).

Anyway guys, thats it, hope you found it interesting

[Monkey Helmet]

wow strong read

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Thats a dumb argument. Of course we are going to have some casualties.

And, you/we are NOT hearing about soldiers being blown up every day because its not happening.

On average, 2 Americans die in Iraq every day and even more are wounded. Granted, cot all of the casualties in Iraq are combat-related, but the numbers are adding up. Two deaths per day x 10 years or however long we will end up in Iraq = a lot of dead Americans and more money out of my wallet.

[Monkey Helmet]

Originally Posted by runjumpthrow

On average, 2 Americans die in Iraq every day and even more are wounded. Granted, cot all of the casualties in Iraq are combat-related, but the numbers are adding up. Two deaths per day x 10 years or however long we will end up in Iraq = a lot of dead Americans and more money out of my wallet.

Do you have a source for the claim that 2 Americans die every day or no? Not accusing, just wondering.

[colo_beef]

and subtract out the average number, annually, that die in normal operations

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by Monkey Helmet

Do you have a source for the claim that 2 Americans die every day or no? Not accusing, just wondering.

http://icasualties.org/oif/

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by colo_beef

and subtract out the average number, annually, that die in normal operations

I clearly said that not all of the deaths and injuries were combat related.

[Monkey Helmet]

Originally Posted by runjumpthrow

http://icasualties.org/oif/

Well isn't that 2.34% an average of US, UK, and "Other" casualties? Granted the majority of troops are American so it's more likely for them to be one or both of those 2 a day but still...

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by Monkey Helmet

Well isn't that 2.34% an average of US, UK, and "Other" casualties? Granted the majority of troops are American so it's more likely for them to be one or both of those 2 a day but still...

2085 dead Americans in Iraq divided by 975 days = 2.1 Americans dying per day in Iraq.

The 2.34 per day figure is for all coalition forces.

[JUSA]

Originally Posted by CitadelArmyJAG

Who are the bad guys?: SNIP

AMAZING read, wow... Thank you for sharing that with us!

[All_Swoled_Up]

Originally Posted by runjumpthrow

2085 dead Americans in Iraq divided by 975 days = 2.1 Americans dying per day in Iraq.

The 2.34 per day figure is for all coalition forces.

World War 2: 291,557 Americans killed in battle from 1941-1945.

An average of 199.69 dead per day. Just a little perspective.

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by All_Swoled_Up

World War 2: 291,557 Americans killed in battle from 1941-1945.

An average of 199.69 dead per day. Just a little perspective.

A little perspective on WHAT?

Are you really trying to compare what is happening in Iraq to WWII?

Please.

[All_Swoled_Up]

Originally Posted by runjumpthrow

A little perspective on WHAT?

Are you really trying to compare what is happening in Iraq to WWII?

Please.

I'm comparing the number of deaths per day from World War 2 to the war in Iraq. Its that simple. Whats so hard to understand??

My point is that, although every lost American life is tragic, we are at war and soldiers die. At least their not dieing by the ****ing boat load like in WW2. What was you point?

[runjumpthrow]

Originally Posted by All_Swoled_Up

What was you point?

lol!

I don't know exactly...now I'm confused!

My initial point had something to do with a previous poster saying something to the effect that the fact that two Americans a day were dying in Iraq is untrue. I simply provided a website to refute his assertion and then it devolved into something else.

[colo_beef]

Is it that most people won't admit we're really at war?

[All_Swoled_Up]

Originally Posted by runjumpthrow

My initial point had something to do with a previous poster saying something to the effect that the fact that two Americans a day were dying in Iraq is untrue. I simply provided a website to refute his assertion and then it devolved into something else.

I suppose if you do an average of American deaths per day it may very well be 2.1. I think he was more stating that we don't hear about soldiers being killed in battle every day because their not. It comes in groups; maybe they go a couple of weeks then an IED takes out 7-8 guys. Rinse, repeat.

When I first read your post I was under the impression that you personally felt 2 deaths a day was was just too high a sacrifice (and you may - many people do) though from reading some of your other posts in different threads I see a little better where you stand. That's why I posted the comparison. In my opinion the "war on terror", including the war in Iraq IS WW3 and we (America) better have the stomach for it or we're all going to regret it.

.

[run213]

The average deaths per day in any big city are higher than the average deaths for americans in Iraq. Should we declare these areas warzones, andadmit that we are looseing the war to urban criminals? The media cares about one thing,and that is makeing sure we loose in Iraq . If they have to lie and distort the truth they will. There only goal is to make the milatary look bad and bring down the Bush administration.

[colo_beef]

Originally Posted by run213

The average deaths per day in any big city are higher than the average deaths for americans in Iraq. Should we declare these areas warzones, andadmit that we are looseing the war to urban criminals? The media cares about one thing,and that is makeing sure we loose in Iraq . If they have to lie and distort the truth they will. There only goal is to make the milatary look bad and bring down the Bush administration.

No the urbanites are just misunderstood....

Oh that's Pres. Bush's fault too. Oh and it rained on my birthday because he didn't sign the Keoto (sp?) surrender, i mean agreement.

[coontang]

Originally Posted by powerman2000

Thats a dumb argument. Of course we are going to have some casualties.

And, you/we are NOT hearing about soldiers being blown up every day because its not happening.

It's not as dumb as saying that the war is going well because we caught a few sergeants.

[majortrepak]

Originally Posted by coontang

It's not as dumb as saying that the war is going well because we caught a few sergeants.

We can never be defeated militarily in Iraq
We can only lose at home
Sadly the democrats have tied there political future to the failure of the US in the WoT and they will do their best to helps us fail.

[NuggzTheNinja]

Originally Posted by CitadelArmyJAG

This was sent to me by a Semper Fi, east coast type. -----------------

Hello to all my fellow gunners, military buffs, veterans and interested guys. A couple of weekends ago I got to spend time with my son Jordan, who was on his first leave since returning from Iraq. He is well (a little thin), and already bored. He will be returning to Iraq for a second tour in early 06 and has already re-enlisted early for 4 more years. He loves the Marine Corps and is actually looking forward to returning to Iraq.

Jordan spent 7 months at Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi. Aka: Fort Apache. He saw and did a lot and the following is what he told me about weapons, equipment, tactics and other miscellaneous info which may be of interest to you. Nothing is by any means classified. No politics here, just a Marine with a birds eye views opinions:

1) The M-16 rifle : Thumbs down. Chronic jamming problems with the talcum powder like sand over there. The sand is everywhere. Jordan says you feel filthy 2 minutes after coming out of the shower. The M-4 carbine version is more popular because its lighter and shorter, but it has jamming problems also. They like the ability to mount the various optical gunsights and weapons lights on the picattiny rails, but the weapon itself is not great in a desert environment. They all hate the 5.56mm (.223) round. Poor penetration on the cinderblock structure common over there and even torso hits cant be reliably counted on to put the enemy down. Fun fact: Random autopsies on dead insurgents shows a high level of opiate use. It would be illegal to do these autopsies on insurgents, and with the way that Muslims are with the treatment of bodies, they'd be throwing a sh-t fit if this was actually taking place

2) The M243 SAW (squad assault weapon): .223 cal. Drum fed light machine gun. Big thumbs down. Universally considered a piece of ****. Chronic jamming problems, most of which require partial disassembly. (that fun in the middle of a firefight). Nice try. Last time I checked, it's an M249 squad AUTOMATIC weapon, and it's not drum fed, it's belt fed. A marine should know this.

3) The M9 Beretta 9mm: Mixed bag. Good gun, performs well in desert environment; but they all hate the 9mm cartridge. The use of handguns for self-defense is actually fairly common. Same old story on the 9mm: Bad guys hit multiple times and still in the fight. He doesn't mention the most common problem with the M9: the mags. Way to go.

4) Mossberg 12ga. Military shotgun: Works well, used frequently for clearing houses to good effect. Used only for breaching, but nice try.

5) The M240 Machine Gun: 7.62 Nato (.308) cal. belt fed machine gun, developed to replace the old M-60 (what a beautiful weapon that was!!). Thumbs up. Accurate, reliable, and the 7.62 round puts em down. Originally developed as a vehicle mounted weapon, more and more are being dismounted and taken into the field by infantry. The 7.62 round chews up the structure over there.

6) The M2 .50 cal heavy machine gun: Thumbs way, way up. Ma deuce is still worth her considerable weight in gold. The ultimate fight stopper, puts their dicks in the dirt every time. The most coveted weapon in-theater.

7) The .45 pistol: Thumbs up. Still the best pistol round out there. Everybody authorized to carry a sidearm is trying to get their hands on one. With few exceptions, can reliably be expected to put em down with a torso hit. The special ops guys (who are doing most of the pistol work) use the HK military model and supposedly love it. The old government model .45s are being re-issued en masse. Nope...not being reissued en-masse. Nice try.

8) The M-14: Thumbs up. They are being re-issued in bulk, mostly in a modified version to special ops guys. Modifications include lightweight Kevlar stocks and low power red dot or ACOG sights. Very reliable in the sandy environment, and they love the 7.62 round. Not being reissued in bulk, also a nice try. And they were/are not issued with a kevlar stock, synthetic maybe, but not kevlar

9) The Barrett .50 cal sniper rifle: Thumbs way up. Spectacular range and accuracy and hits like a freight train. Used frequently to take out vehicle suicide bombers ( we actually stop a lot of them) and barricaded enemy. Definitely here to stay.

10) The M24 sniper rifle: Thumbs up. Mostly in .308 but some in 300 win mag. Heavily modified Remington 700s. Great performance. Snipers have been used heavily to great effect. Rumor has it that a marine sniper on his third tour in Anbar province has actually exceeded Carlos Hathcocks record for confirmed kills with OVER 100. M40 is actually the rifle being used, and it isn't issued in .300 win mag.

11) The new body armor: Thumbs up. Relatively light at approx. 6 lbs. and can reliably be expected to soak up small shrapnel and even will stop an AK-47 round. The bad news: Hot as **** to wear, almost unbearable in the summer heat (which averages over 120 degrees). Also, the enemy now goes for head shots whenever possible. All the bull**** about the old body armor making our guys vulnerable to the IEDs was a non-starter. The IED explosions are enormous and body armor doesn't make any difference at all in most cases.

12) Night Vision and Infrared Equipment: Thumbs way up. Spectacular performance. Our guys see in the dark and own the night, period. Very little enemy action after evening prayers. More and more enemy being whacked at night during movement by our hunter-killer teams. Weve all seen the videos.

13) Lights: Thumbs up. Most of the weapon mounted and personal lights are Surefires, and the troops love em. Invaluable for night urban operations. Jordan carried a $34 Surefire G2 on a neck lanyard and loved it.

I cant help but notice that most of the good fighting weapons and ordnance are 50 or more years old!!!!!!!!! With all our technology, its the WWII and Vietnam era weapons that everybody wants!!!! The infantry fighting is frequent, up close and brutal. No quarter is given or shown.

Bad guy weapons:

1) Mostly AK47s . The entire country is an arsenal. Works better in the desert than the M16 and the .308 Russian round kills reliably. PKM belt fed light machine guns are also common and effective. Luckily, the enemy mostly shoots like ****. Undisciplined spray and pray type fire. However, they are seeing more and more precision weapons, especially sniper rifles. (Iran, again) Fun fact: Captured enemy have apparently marveled at the marksmanship of our guys and how hard they fight. They are apparently told in Jihad school that the Americans rely solely on technology, and can be easily beaten in close quarters combat for their lack of toughness. Lets just say they know better now. .308 Russian? Call it 7.62 WP, call it 7.62x39. .308 Russian is nonexistant. Nice try yet again, but it's obvious that this guy knows nothing about this topic

2) The RPG: Probably the infantry weapon most feared by our guys. Simple, reliable and as common as dog****. The enemy responded to our up-armored humvees by aiming at the windshields, often at point blank range. Still killing a lot of our guys.

3) The IED: The biggest killer of all. Can be anything from old Soviet anti-armor mines to jury rigged artillery shells. A lot found in Jordans area were in abandoned cars. The enemy would take 2 or 3 155mm artillery shells and wire them together. Most were detonated by cell phone, and the explosions are enormous. You're not safe in any vehicle, even an M1 tank. Driving is by far the most dangerous thing our guys do over there. Lately, they are much more sophisticated shape charges (Iranian) specifically designed to penetrate armor. Fact: Most of the ready made IEDs are supplied by Iran, who is also providing terrorists (Hezbollah types) to train the insurgents in their use and tactics. Thats why the attacks have been so deadly lately. Their concealment methods are ingenious, the latest being shape charges in Styrofoam containers spray painted to look like the cinderblocks that litter all Iraqi roads. We find about 40% before they detonate, and the bomb disposal guys are unsung heroes of this war.

4) Mortars and rockets: Very prevalent. The soviet era 122mm rockets (with an 18km range) are becoming more prevalent. One of Jordans NCOs lost a leg to one. These weapons cause a lot of damage inside the wire. Jordans base was hit almost daily his entire time there by mortar and rocket fire, often at night to disrupt sleep patterns and cause fatigue (It did). More of a psychological weapon than anything else. The enemy mortar teams would jump out of vehicles, fire a few rounds, and then haul ass in a matter of seconds.
122 mm rockets? STFU, these don't exist in Iraq.

5) Bad guy technology: Simple yet effective. Most communication is by cell and satellite phones, and also by email on laptops. They use handheld GPS units for navigation and Google earth for overhead views of our positions. Their weapons are good, if not fancy, and prevalent. Their explosives and bomb technology is TOP OF THE LINE. Night vision is rare. They are very careless with their equipment and the captured GPS units and laptops are treasure troves of Intel when captured.

No offense to you bro, but that's a crock of sh-t. Replies in bold.

[JerseyArt]

The saddest part is that the only way we could possibly lose it to give up.

The terrorists are in the most untenable position. Their only hope for victory lies in weakening our will to fight them. Unfortunately for us their spokespeople, also known as the US Democratic party, appears willing to support them in this pursuit.

[coontang]

Originally Posted by majortrepak

We can never be defeated militarily in Iraq
We can only lose at home
Sadly the democrats have tied there political future to the failure of the US in the WoT and they will do their best to helps us fail.

Most wars don't end with one side being decimated. They end with one side considering the situation and cutting their losses by surrending. Just because the surrending side could have fought on doesn't mean they weren't losing. Sometimes it's better to surrender than to keep fighting, even if you could win the war if you stuck it out. Wars are just as much about who has more to lose than who has the bigger army.

[majortrepak]

Originally Posted by coontang

Most wars don't end with one side being decimated. They end with one side considering the situation and cutting their losses by surrending. Just because the surrending side could have fought on doesn't mean they weren't losing. Sometimes it's better to surrender than to keep fighting, even if you could win the war if you stuck it out. Wars are just as much about who has more to lose than who has the bigger army.

We aren’t losing militarily, we are winning militarily.

[coontang]

Originally Posted by majortrepak

We aren’t losing militarily, we are winning militarily.

I'm not sure how you decide who is "winning." Is it who kills more people? Just because we kill more of them than they do of us doesn't mean we're winning. Just because we nabbed a few sergeants doesn't mean we're winning either. I would say signs of winning would be fewer bombings, beheadings, assassinations. Those would be good indicators that we're winning.

[majortrepak]

Originally Posted by coontang

I'm not sure how you decide who is "winning." Is it who kills more people? Just because we kill more of them than they do of us doesn't mean we're winning. Just because we nabbed a few sergeants doesn't mean we're winning either. I would say signs of winning would be fewer bombings, beheadings, assassinations. Those would be good indicators that we're winning.

Elections
Iraqis fighting more of their own battle
voting % higher each elections including minority groups
death toll

remember before each election the msm would report that no one would vote then when the election goes better then planned its meaningless.