Patriotism is overrated

[Fitqb]

I'm ready for the hateful response, I thought I'd just say that before I begin... BTW, this is kind of long, so no a55hole comments about cliff notes please.

I've never been into the whole "patriotism" thing. I just never had. I've never been nationalistic or one to take "sides" in international issues. There are a few reasons why I feel this way. The first and most important reason, is that I realize that people do not choose what country they are born in. I've lived here in the United States all of my life and am glad I live here, but when I was born, I didn't fill in a blank to determine which country I would be born into. With that said, I don't understand why people feel that they need to band together to go against other people, who also didn't choose their nationality. Most of the people in their respective countries, just happen to live within the borders that they live in because that's the way it has always been for them. I will not hate someone for being of (insert country) decent, because they had no control over that. Then border patrol comes into play. Would you want to improve your life if you had the chance? Since you didn't choose what country to you were born in and have lived there for a while, wouldn't you want to improve the lives of your family? I certainly would and that's why I cannot fault people for wanting to migrate to the United States. I just put myself in the position of others and wonder what I would do if I was living in an underdeveloped country. I am aware that one can't help their circumstance all the time. This is similar to the skin color of people. Nobody chose to be white, black, brown, purple, or albino. So how can you dislike a particular race? You easily could have been born into another race yourself. Just like you easily could have been born into another country such as Iraq or Afghanistan.

Another reason, that I'm not a big fan of patriotism, is that it is hypocritical. Who kills more Americans than any other country in the world? America! Actually, let me rephrase that, America kills more Americans than all of the other countries in the world, combined. So how "patriotic" are you really? We live in a country where our worst enemies are our own citizens. But when an international crisis occurs, we're all teammates because now we have a "bad guy." Forget the fact that your neighbor is a sexual offender and someone else down the street has a record of theft and attempted murder, we're all teammates now. That's the American way! Once we have a game to play and can make sides, we all BAND together. Yet, once this happens, the crime rates in our country don't go down. That's a reason I would never go to war. I could be overseas, fighting for Americans and their safety, but while I'm over there, Americans are still killing Americans back home. So, in reality, you just are protecting Americans from being killed by the people of other countries. Would you still feel heroic?

The government actually convinces people to give up their lives for this.

[AccountantGuy]

Cliffs?

[GarethCheeseman]

Patriotism is the new religeon of the masses. If you can't put the fear of god in your sunjects anymore, make love of ones land the law.

[Flexed_out]

I'm not totally sure what kind of patriotism you're talking about because there are two kinds. The people that wave flags everywhere and buy american goods and claim they're "patriotic" or the people that actually do something like sign up for the military and fight.

Anywho its all propaganda anyway. The government created modern patriotism not the people.

[Fitqb]

Originally Posted by AccountantGuy

Cliffs?

If you don't support America, you're a terrorist!

[Fitqb]

AccountantGuy, what are my "logical gaps"? Please elaborate.

[AccountantGuy]

Originally Posted by Fitqb

If you don't support America, you're a terrorist!

I'm a vet, not the animal kind.

[Fitqb]

Originally Posted by AccountantGuy

I'm a vet, not the animal kind.

good story, but where are my "gaps"?

[AccountantGuy]

Originally Posted by Fitqb

AccountantGuy, what are my "logical gaps"? Please elaborate.

They are so prevalent that it indicates a rather large misconception of the rules of logic on your part. Therefore it would be useless of me to try to point them out....and boring.


Unsubscribing.

[Fitqb]

Originally Posted by AccountantGuy

They are so prevalent that it indicates a rather large misconception of the rules of logic on your part. Therefore it would be useless of me to try to point them out....and boring.


Unsubscribing.

You're pretty convincing there. No rebuttals on my part.

[concept]

Nice post Fitqb. As I said before and I'll say again, pariotism blinds one's mind. I am very sicken when someone say they are proud of being an American but cannot list what they are actually proud of. Genocide? murder? destruction? killing? rape? More people have died under the American flag than any other in the history of the world, is that what they are proud of?

Patriotism is the new religion to control the masses GarethCheeseman. The government can indeed rally an entire nation to go to war and slaughter countless amount of people because of "terroism". But guess what? War IS terroism no matter how certain individuals in our society try to romanticize it.

What are we as Americans really proud of? To be labled as a terroist organization and be condamned by virtually every nation on the surface of this little planet? The WHOLE world knows our actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are atrocities against human rights and out right murder, but only us Americans don't know any better. So what are we really proud of? What is there to be patriotic about? Tell me

[Stinker]

Patriotism leads to state worship, nationalism, anti-capitalist economics and anti-individualist laws.

[JBDW]

What is patriotism, really?

[Fitqb]

Originally Posted by JBDW

What is patriotism, really?

It's when people want to feel better than others and be part of "the team." Usually, when people take it for granted what country they were born in and have pre-conceived bias against the people of other countries, of whom they have never even personally met before.

[JBDW]

Originally Posted by Fitqb

It's when people want to feel better than others and be part of "the team." Usually, when people take it for granted what country they were born in and have pre-conceived bias against the people of other countries, of whom they have never even personally met before.

Exactly..I always thought patriotism was pretty much a tool of the government. What is there really to be proud of for your country being what it is? For example, why should I care if someone from my country wins a Nobel prize? If I don't know that person, if I've never met him before, tell me again why I should even bother? Being proud of your countrymen just because they are your countrymen is bull****. It's only because you were born in the same geographic area that you two are even countrymen to begin with.

[xer0xed]

Patriotism is needed to give one a sense of honor for the purpose of ensuring they engage in productive behavior (at least in a majority of people). It's far from overrated.

[JT.]

I support and feel pride for my:
- family
- neighbourhood
- City
- state
- country

Why? I don't know.

edit: I should probably qualify that statement by saying i support these communities, not necessarily the governments that run them.

[Stinker]

Originally Posted by xer0xed

Patriotism is needed to give one a sense of honor for the purpose of ensuring they engage in productive behavior (at least in a majority of people). It's far from overrated.

I disagree entirely. "They" can have a "sense of honor for the purpose of ensuring they engage in productive behavior" without patriotism. I do not think patriotism grants a sense of honor anyway, it grants a sense of righteousness, which is very different.
Patriotism is inherently collectivist in that it encourages sacrafice for the greater good, it is particularly susceptible to state manipulation and therefore statism, it is anti-economic ("buy American", "keep jobs in America", etc.), it supports anti-liberty legislation (the draft, anti-flag burning laws), and provides the government with the greatest tool with which to control the population since religion.
I find patriotism unfathomably un-American.

[Uncle Bob]

I absolutely agree. It's interesting how political boundaries can mean so much to people and how people feel they need to dedicate themselves to what they were taught rather than learn other ways of life and see what works best. Never thought of patriotism as a form of religion. Interesting take.

[IceDragon]

I love my country, will fight for it, but mainly it's a case of fighting for what I hold dear, my family, my kids, the way of life we have. I can't understand those who hate their own country, that just isn't me, but I love being British, I love everything there is about being British.

Fair enough, the people can be complete w*nkers, but you get that anywhere. When the Queen's Jubilee happened, people were banding together, having street parties, smiling at strangers and getting the communities together and it felt just...amazing! The same happened at 7/7...it may not have been such a momentous, happy occasion, but we pulled together as a PEOPLE, helping out where we could, giving aid and a helping hand to those in need, and it was a lovely feeling, like the feeling of patriotism we all had at the Commonwealth Games...and now we get to hold the Olympics! London 2012! Do you know what a fantastic feeling that was? You want to talk warm and fuzzy feeling, there's one right there.

I can bitch about my country, or the people in it, sure, but ultimately, it's a decent place to live...as long as you ignore the immigration rate and crime rate, anyways...

Patriotism? Yes, I have that. A superiority complex about my country? No, I don't have that. Hope for the future? Funnily enough, I have that too.

I'm British, and I love it.




Plus we have Monty Python...

[xer0xed]

Originally Posted by Stinker

I disagree entirely. "They" can have a "sense of honor for the purpose of ensuring they engage in productive behavior" without patriotism. I do not think patriotism grants a sense of honor anyway, it grants a sense of righteousness, which is very different.
Patriotism is inherently collectivist in that it encourages sacrafice for the greater good, it is particularly susceptible to state manipulation and therefore statism, it is anti-economic ("buy American", "keep jobs in America", etc.), it supports anti-liberty legislation (the draft, anti-flag burning laws), and provides the government with the greatest tool with which to control the population since religion.
I find patriotism unfathomably un-American.

Collectivistic cultures are inherently more productive and successful, especially when paired with individualistic economics. Japan is a pretty good example of this. We bomb the hell out of them and they're riding our coattails in half a century. People in our country are extremely disrespectful and lazy, expecting to be served, all the meanwhile engaging in negative behaviors (drugs/random sex/unemployment/etc) under the presupposition that they are the only ones affected. This is due to lack of honor.

Another thing that makes the collectivistic "honor concept" more difficult to implement in the United States is the lack of a single, linear heritage (as is the case in Japan). Thus, nationalism is what must be used in place of this to unite our country. Instead of disgracing only oneself with a negative behavior, an individual disgraces their family, their heritage, and their country. This provides a much higher degree of reinforcement and works much more efficiently, as do individualistic, right-wing economics. This is all without even mentioning China's extreme amount of success (with their annual % GDP gain dwarfing ours) as they introduce more rightist practices in their collectivistic society.

Capitalism + Patriotism (in the form of collective honor, or however).

Putting the two together = extreme productivity.

Patriotism is very necessary. It works to benefit our country (and would greatly moreso in higher amounts) and is therefore American.

[Thy_Kingdom]

Originally Posted by GarethCheeseman

Patriotism is the new religeon of the masses. If you can't put the fear of god in your sunjects anymore, make love of ones land the law.

Co-sign

[xer0xed]

Originally Posted by IceDragon

I love my country, will fight for it, but mainly it's a case of fighting for what I hold dear, my family, my kids, the way of life we have. I can't understand those who hate their own country, that just isn't me, but I love being British, I love everything there is about being British.

Good for you, Ice. =)

[user43390fgui8t]

Originally Posted by AccountantGuy

They are so prevalent that it indicates a rather large misconception of the rules of logic on your part. Therefore it would be useless of me to try to point them out....and boring.


Unsubscribing.

sad and weak way to try and get out of not having the ability to intellectually debate.

[run213]

To IceDragon good post. You also have Fawlty Towers one of my favorite comedys.Also I liked the show Cracker with Robbie Coltrane.Also Rudyard Kipling one of my favorite writers.Tons of great British stuff. Last but not least You have CREAM the greatest 3man rock band of all time in my opinion.
Bruce,Baker, and Clapton it doesnt get any better than that.

[Stinker]

Originally Posted by xer0xed

Collectivistic cultures are inherently more productive and successful, especially when paired with individualistic economics. Japan is a pretty good example of this. We bomb the hell out of them and they're riding our coattails in half a century. People in our country are extremely disrespectful and lazy, expecting to be served, all the meanwhile engaging in negative behaviors (drugs/random sex/unemployment/etc) under the presupposition that they are the only ones affected. This is due to lack of honor.

Another thing that makes the collectivistic "honor concept" more difficult to implement in the United States is the lack of a single, linear heritage (as is the case in Japan). Thus, nationalism is what must be used in place of this to unite our country. Instead of disgracing only oneself with a negative behavior, an individual disgraces their family, their heritage, and their country. This provides a much higher degree of reinforcement and works much more efficiently, as do individualistic, right-wing economics. This is all without even mentioning China's extreme amount of success (with their annual % GDP gain dwarfing ours) as they introduce more rightist practices in their collectivistic society.

Capitalism + Patriotism (in the form of collective honor, or however).

Putting the two together = extreme productivity.

Patriotism is very necessary. It works to benefit our country (and would greatly moreso in higher amounts) and is therefore American.

I don't know where to begin, this is a completly contradictory theory. Capitalism is essentially and totaly individualistic. Why would collectivism be productive? The motivator to be productive in a capitalist society is personal values, in a collectivist society it is 'The Greater Good'- collectivism has never worked because personal values are necesarilly more important to people than the greater good.

How on earth does collectivism prevent behaviors like drug use or laziness? Collectivism encourages these behaviors because in an individualist society there is no collectivist entity there to catch you- if you are lazy then you go hungry, you must work for your own self interest and survival. In individualism you survive on your own productivity, if you are unproductive then you suffer all of the consequences. In collectivism if you are lazy you can rely on others to support you.

Your theory is contradictory. Individualism motivates man to be better than he is because he and he alone recieves the spoils of his actions, and prevents him from being unproductive because he and he alone suffers the consequences of his actions.
Collectivism does not motivate men to be better than they are because all they do not see the benefits of their actions, and it does not prevent them from being unproductive because the consequeces of his actions are spread out across society.
Individualism means that man has the capacity to fulfill his desires, collectivism means man has the capacity to work for the 'greater good', whatever that may be. Which motivates you to go to work in the morning; the persuit of your own happiness or the persuit of paying taxes?

[xer0xed]

Originally Posted by Stinker

I don't know where to begin, this is a completly contradictory theory. Capitalism is essentially and totaly individualistic. Why would collectivism be productive? The motivator to be productive in a capitalist society is personal values, in a collectivist society it is 'The Greater Good'- collectivism has never worked because personal values are necesarilly more important to people than the greater good.

How on earth does collectivism prevent behaviors like drug use or laziness? Collectivism encourages these behaviors because in an individualist society there is no collectivist entity there to catch you- if you are lazy then you go hungry, you must work for your own self interest and survival. In individualism you survive on your own productivity, if you are unproductive then you suffer all of the consequences. In collectivism if you are lazy you can rely on others to support you.

Your theory is contradictory. Individualism motivates man to be better than he is because he and he alone recieves the spoils of his actions, and prevents him from being unproductive because he and he alone suffers the consequences of his actions.
Collectivism does not motivate men to be better than they are because all they do not see the benefits of their actions, and it does not prevent them from being unproductive because the consequeces of his actions are spread out across society.
Individualism means that man has the capacity to fulfill his desires, collectivism means man has the capacity to work for the 'greater good', whatever that may be. Which motivates you to go to work in the morning; the persuit of your own happiness or the persuit of paying taxes?

Neg. Lack of personal familiarity does not = contradiction. You can have a collectivistic society with a right-wing, individualistic set of laws. Such a system exists, and works quite well (better than what we've had established in modern times)... as my earlier examples indicate.

It goes hand and hand with the theory that people can solve their own problems without government intervention. In place of socialistic laws is consentual, collectivistic groupwork exacerbated by a sense of union and honor.

It is society's job to make it in the personal best interest of individuals to work toward a greater good. Legislation does not work toward this end, rather social pressure among citizenry. Examples of legislation failing in this regard are laws against prostitution and the War on Drugs. Honor > legality.

We must encourage greater loyalty to one's family and country and honor intwined in both. Loyalty to the government doesn't necessarily have to follow such.

[Stinker]

Originally Posted by xer0xed

Neg. Lack of personal familiarity does not = contradiction. You can have a collectivistic society with a right-wing, individualistic set of laws. Such a system exists, and works quite well (better than what we've had established in modern times)... as my earlier examples indicate.

It goes hand and hand with the theory that people can solve their own problems without government intervention. In place of socialistic laws is consentual, collectivistic groupwork exacerbated by a sense of union and honor.

It is society's job to make it in the personal best interest of individuals to work toward a greater good. Legislation does not work toward this end, rather social pressure among citizenry. Examples of legislation failing in this regard are laws against prostitution and the War on Drugs. Honor > legality.

We must encourage greater loyalty to one's family and country and honor intwined in both. Loyalty to the government doesn't necessarily have to follow such.

If you are not going to take this seriously then why bother? You claim to be a capitalist but you clearly reject the philosophy of capitalism. The mere fact that you think that working for the greater good motivates a man for the sake of "honor" completely denies capitalism.

http://capitalism.org/faq/collectivism.htm
http://capitalism.org/faq/society.htm

Capitalism is based on the principle that man should not disatvantage himself to help others(as per collectivism), nor disadvantage others to help himself. A man should be neither the slave nor the slave owner.

[xer0xed]

Originally Posted by Stinker

If you are not going to take this seriously then why bother? You claim to be a capitalist but you clearly reject the philosophy of capitalism. The mere fact that you think that working for the greater good motivates a man for the sake of "honor" completely denies capitalism.

http://capitalism.org/faq/collectivism.htm
http://capitalism.org/faq/society.htm

Capitalism is based on the principle that man should not disatvantage himself to help others(as per collectivism), nor disadvantage others to help himself. A man should be neither the slave nor the slave owner.

Negative. You seem to be citing Randian philosophy to a tee while neglecting what capitalism in practice actually implicates.

No person should be forced through legislation to help any other person or family unit. Rather, for the sake of efficiency it would help to create a culture where people do such by voluntary means, working to better their community, their families, and likewise themselves.

No one is a slave or slave owner, but social pressure in the direction of assisting one's family certainly works more efficiently. To declare otherwise is simply a sin of idealism prevailing over reality.

Microeconomic example:

1) My friend and I go to lunch every Tuesday and Thursday. We get our plates and fries.

2) He fills both of our drinks at the fountain machine.

3) I get pizza for both of us from the other side of the cafe.

4) We meet at our table and eat.

This saves us both a considerable amount of time. In assisting each other, we assisted ourselves. It's merely a consentual exchange -- an idea promulgated by Capitalism. If one of us were to break the pattern, we would not only be slowed down, but one could bitch at the other for breaking the cycle. This = negative reinforcement. Next time, I'd be more likely to comply.

Where velocity is efficiency: d/t = V. We saved time.

I'm confident you'll be able to interpret my points above and combine them correctly with my earlier ones.

[Fitqb]

Originally Posted by IceDragon

I love my country, will fight for it, but mainly it's a case of fighting for what I hold dear, my family, my kids, the way of life we have. I can't understand those who hate their own country, that just isn't me, but I love being British, I love everything there is about being British.

Fair enough, the people can be complete w*nkers, but you get that anywhere. When the Queen's Jubilee happened, people were banding together, having street parties, smiling at strangers and getting the communities together and it felt just...amazing! The same happened at 7/7...it may not have been such a momentous, happy occasion, but we pulled together as a PEOPLE, helping out where we could, giving aid and a helping hand to those in need, and it was a lovely feeling, like the feeling of patriotism we all had at the Commonwealth Games...and now we get to hold the Olympics! London 2012! Do you know what a fantastic feeling that was? You want to talk warm and fuzzy feeling, there's one right there.

I can bitch about my country, or the people in it, sure, but ultimately, it's a decent place to live...as long as you ignore the immigration rate and crime rate, anyways...

Patriotism? Yes, I have that. A superiority complex about my country? No, I don't have that. Hope for the future? Funnily enough, I have that too.

I'm British, and I love it.




Plus we have Monty Python...

So if I had the same principle as you but was serving as a non-combat member of the military, and for some reason our country's political leaders decided that they didn't like each other and went to war, you'd try to kill me?