Abs with no machine

[Nasreen1979]

Hi All

Wondering if you can give me some inspiration.
I would like to work the muscles in my abs and want to use weights for this area too. Problem is that the gym that I go to has no ab machines!

Can anyone suggest any excercises with weights for the abs that dont need machines?

Thanks

Nasreen

[Marti]

Hi! Do they have any cable machines? You can use free weights with a balance ball or on the floor. You can lie on your back with your legs straight up and hold the weight between your feet and lift your butt up. You want to think about lifting your feet to the ceiling. (just be careful not to drop the weight) try without weight to get the feel. You want to raise enough that you get your tail bone off the floor. Or do crunches with a free weight on your chest. Lie on the floor with arms straight out from side, and just bend your knees to your chest and lift your butt off the floor. If you need more ideas let me know I can go on!

[Nasreen1979]

Hi
We dont have any cable machines for the abs, we just have basic stuff (womens only gym, so they dont have many machines as most women think weights are just too hard)

We dont have a decline bench either and our other benches dont have holds for your feet!

Thanks for the lower ab suggestions. I think for the upper abs ill just hook my feet under something and hold a weight on my chest or behind my head.

Nasreen

[TurbulentFluid]

Geez, sounds awful - change the gym! If you accidentally have a bar, try hanging leg raises with a dumbbell between your feet...

[Marti]

you need a better gym! You don't need a decline bench to do the ab work.
Just hit the floor. Do they have the balance balls? You can get one for about $20.00 at a sporting good store and the free weights are a $1.00 a pound. It's just a suggestion.

[onebratt08]

Do they have medicine balls? Those are great to add to your traditional crunch and a variety of other ab exercises. I'll tell you, I never use weight with abs exercises and mine look pretty good. I make sure to use slow controlled movements and force the abs to draw the rest of the body in.

[PrissyPants]

I like to sit on a bench with my feet hooked under another and do weighted crunches. For some reason I feel these more than on the ball or even on the cables.

Good luck finding exercises that work for you, but I agree with many of the others. Find another gym.

[Nasreen1979]

Yeah am contimplating another gym but have to stick with this one until my membership runs out.

I think part of the problem is that I dont spend the time on the abs as I should, plus my body is so used to doing the traditional crunches in aerobic classes. Last night I lay down on the seated row machine so I could hook my legs under something.

I will try the fitball or medicine ball soon

Where is the best place to carry the medicine ball??

Nasreen

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by Nasreen1979

Hi All

Wondering if you can give me some inspiration.
I would like to work the muscles in my abs and want to use weights for this area too. Problem is that the gym that I go to has no ab machines!

Can anyone suggest any excercises with weights for the abs that dont need machines?

Thanks

Nasreen

Hanging leg raises. Your legs are the "weights". As you get stronger you can straighten your legs decreasing your leverage.

You can do weighted crunches also.

Unless your abs are REALLY skinny, I personally don't recommend going too heavy on abs.

[W8isGR8]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Hanging leg raises. Your legs are the "weights". As you get stronger you can straighten your legs decreasing your leverage.

First of all what the hell are you doing in the womens forum, and second, leg raises, come on!

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by W8isGR8

First of all what the hell are you doing in the womens forum, and second, leg raises, come on!

Shhhhh.....everyone thinks I'm a mean woman on this forum....

Look, I'll "cruise" how I want LOL.

Leg raises are great for the abs, as long as you pivot from the bottom of the rib-cage.

[Nasreen1979]

I tired hanging leg raises, it is very easy to not get the technique right and im not sure im doing them right.

Im a skinny girl, no way a body builder!!
Slowly starting to see my abs due to my diet and a bit of running as of late just in time for summer (im in Australia)

I just thought that I should be lifting weights for this muscle group as I do with all muscle groups.

I just dont seem to feel much of a burn with abs and I wanted to challenge myself further

Nasreen

[TurbulentFluid]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Unless your abs are REALLY skinny, I personally don't recommend going too heavy on abs.

"Why not?" Asks the mean woman to the one that everyone thinks IS the mean woman. "I do weighted crunches - 1 series of 20 with 45 kg and 2-3 series of 20 with 50 kg. That's after some "no-weight" exercises, such as leg raises. Why shouldn't I do this?"
Then the mean woman contemplates, "Man, that sounded harsh, even from me. Let's elaborate." And so she says: "I'm just curious tio why this would be "wrong". My abs grew a LOT of that in only 2 weeks, even if I can't see them - but I can't see them because of fat, not because they're SMALL."

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

"Why not?" Asks the mean woman to the one that everyone thinks IS the mean woman. "I do weighted crunches - 1 series of 20 with 45 kg and 2-3 series of 20 with 50 kg. That's after some "no-weight" exercises, such as leg raises. Why shouldn't I do this?"
Then the mean woman contemplates, "Man, that sounded harsh, even from me. Let's elaborate." And so she says: "I'm just curious tio why this would be "wrong". My abs grew a LOT of that in only 2 weeks, even if I can't see them - but I can't see them because of fat, not because they're SMALL."

First, I'm PMS'ing so don't mess.

J/k

The abs are like any other muscle, the rectus and ESPECIALLY the obliques have a high percentage of FT fibers which means if exposed to low reps and heavy weights they will grow thick.

If one wants thick abs, by all means train with weights.

I listened to that nonsense when I was young, when I had the "size at all costs" mentality. You know what I have now? A thick waist. I would rather have a smaller waist.

Just my bitter .02.

I sincerely think that not all muscles should be trained for maximum size for an aesthetic physique. Now we can debate the philosophy of aesthetics etc etc, but how many women (or men for that matter) train their necks for max size? Should they? Just because the neck responds readily to heavy weights? How about traps on short necked men or women?

If one WANTS to, then by all means go for it. I am just giving advice for the "masses".

This wasn't directed at Turbulent, but her post was just a segue for a mini-rant.

[Marti]

Sorry if this is stupid to ask, but if you want ripped abs, which means you have them show (once fat is off) doesn't it have to be thicker? Skinny muscle tissue wont give you nice cut abs will it?

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by Marti

Sorry if this is stupid to ask, but if you want ripped abs, which means you have them show (once fat is off) doesn't it have to be thicker? Skinny muscle tissue wont give you nice cut abs will it?

I don't want to get into a war re: training philosophy (and I'm pretty well armed ), but I personally think that there is a difference in the development one gets from high and low reps with high and low loads.

Look at endurance athletes calves for an example of "defined tone". Ditto dancers.

So I'm not saying don't develop one's abs, but I am just not in favor of heavy weights for the area for most people.

Check this out:

http://www.classicbodybuilders.com/zabo.html

Pre-drugs, this guy was famous for doing 1000 roman chair sit ups and 1000 leg raises per day. To me his abs are perfect. Thick enough for you?

[Marti]

Absolutely no war!!! I really don't know!!! That is why I asked. I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm just trying to understand is all.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by Marti

Absolutely no war!!! I really don't know!!! That is why I asked. I wasn't being sarcastic. I'm just trying to understand is all.

I'm sorry I didn't mean a war with you.

Now why would I want to get into a war with someone with a nice name like "Marti" on the womens forum? I engage in warfare on the exercise/programs forums usually LOL.

with posts like this:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=412

Nah Marti I didn't mean a war with you, I meant in general. Many people think "tone" doesn't exist because some "lab coat guy" tells them how to perceive reality.

See------> smiley face=not at war.

[TurbulentFluid]

OK thanx, Defiant... 'swhat I thought, really. I don't want a thin waist... My logic is as follows: I've no time to do 1000 reps of anything per day. Let alone 2000 reps. So I do 60 reps with 50 kg (twice a week, plus about 300 reps of bodyweight stuff 6 days a week). Yes, of course there's a difference, but I rather fancy the results... now if I could get the damned FAT off!?!?

[Ninja J]

We have one ad machine at our "gym." Although it's the one where you sit in it, and lean forward pressing down on the pad. I personally think it's useless. There are so many other things you can do for the abs. Cable cruches, weighted decline cruches, weight decline half situps, reg. crunches, weighted crunches, leg lifts, lying leg raisies, etc. The list is endless.

I'm not a fan of the machines. The only machines we have in our "gym" is leg curls, leg extensions, ab machine, press machine, and the other one is also a press machine, but I can't remember exactly what it does. It works the upper body though.lol I never use it, which is why I don't remember. That's the only weight machines we have. Oh and then there is the Smith Machine. That's it.

So when we move and go to a "real" gym, I'm not concerned about their weight machines.. just as long as they have plenty of benches, incline bench, and plenty of free weights and of course an assortment of barbells. Preferably the standard 45lbs one.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

OK thanx, Defiant... 'swhat I thought, really. I don't want a thin waist... My logic is as follows: I've no time to do 1000 reps of anything per day. Let alone 2000 reps. So I do 60 reps with 50 kg (twice a week, plus about 300 reps of bodyweight stuff 6 days a week). Yes, of course there's a difference, but I rather fancy the results... now if I could get the damned FAT off!?!?

I swear I listen to this all day!! From my girlfriend to the women I work with. They all think they are too heavy or something.

I'm sure you look better than you are giving yourself credit for.

Ladies...this meansYOU

[TurbulentFluid]

Er...

Whoever said anything about being "too heavy"??? Being "too heavy" and having a bf% too high to show your abs is two VERY different things, just like having a physique that'll satisfy yourself is VERY different than having a physique that'll "satisfy" someone else. It's not about giving guys a hard-on, babe, I made it with 85 kg just as well as I make it now, with 59 kg. It's also not about looking good on the beach. I didn't give a hoot then, I don't give a hoot now. It's about achieving something completely different. If I was a high-jumper and wanted to do 2 m but could only do 1.7m, would you go aorund telling me "my girlfriend ALSO says she's too heavy"? I think not.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

Er...

Whoever said anything about being "too heavy"??? Being "too heavy" and having a bf% too high to show your abs is two VERY different things, just like having a physique that'll satisfy yourself is VERY different than having a physique that'll "satisfy" someone else. It's not about giving guys a hard-on, babe, I made it with 85 kg just as well as I make it now, with 59 kg. It's also not about looking good on the beach. I didn't give a hoot then, I don't give a hoot now. It's about achieving something completely different. If I was a high-jumper and wanted to do 2 m but could only do 1.7m, would you go aorund telling me "my girlfriend ALSO says she's too heavy"? I think not.

You know what I meant. I meant too fat. Of course I woudn't say "too heavy" as a gauge of health or even appearance. Hell I weigh 240 at just under 6 foot.

And it wasn't about pleasing other people. It was about having a realistic view of yourself.

Where did I say anything about giving guys a hard-on? If I were a woman would you have said the same thing?

Actually, in retrospect, I don't see how that post could have been turned into a negative.

Message received.

[TurbulentFluid]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Where did I say anything about giving guys a hard-on? If I were a woman would you have said the same thing?

Yes, I would. Actually, up to now I wasn't sure what sex you were, nor was I interested.

It was turned into "negative", or rather, "useless and dumb", like this:

- "too fat", "too heavy", etc, what YOU used, is a subjective view of oneself or other people, realistic or not, based on personal expectations / preferences / desires.

- "too high on bodyfat", what I used, is an objective statement made solely on measurements of bf%. "too high" is concluded upon the fact that abs (on women) show at about 16-17% bf, whereas I'm about 20%.

THEN you went adding what your girlfriend and women you know thought. Unless they're ALL bodybuilders, which I find unlikely, why should we find THEIR opinions relevant? Specially because MOST women who are NOT into BB complain because they wanna look MORE ATTRACTIVE (hence the hard-on statement, because that's what "attractive to men" is, on it's bottom line, if we're debating LOOKS).

In short, if you wanna give mentally supportive statements on people's looks based on your own preferences or some widely accepted averages, go post on a different forum. I thought "forum.BODYBUILDING.com" meant we were discussing stuff (mainly) bodybuilding - wise. And bodybuilding-wise, 20%bf leaves plenty room for improvement.

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

Yes, I would. Actually, up to now I wasn't sure what sex you were, nor was I interested.

It was turned into "negative", or rather, "useless and dumb", like this:

- "too fat", "too heavy", etc, what YOU used, is a subjective view of oneself or other people, realistic or not, based on personal expectations / preferences / desires.

- "too high on bodyfat", what I used, is an objective statement made solely on measurements of bf%. "too high" is concluded upon the fact that abs (on women) show at about 16-17% bf, whereas I'm about 20%.

THEN you went adding what your girlfriend and women you know thought. Unless they're ALL bodybuilders, which I find unlikely, why should we find THEIR opinions relevant? Specially because MOST women who are NOT into BB complain because they wanna look MORE ATTRACTIVE (hence the hard-on statement, because that's what "attractive to men" is, on it's bottom line, if we're debating LOOKS).

In short, if you wanna give mentally supportive statements on people's looks based on your own preferences or some widely accepted averages, go post on a different forum. I thought "forum.BODYBUILDING.com" meant we were discussing stuff (mainly) bodybuilding - wise. And bodybuilding-wise, 20%bf leaves plenty room for improvement.

You are simply extrapolating information that is not there. Where did I say "what I think"? What I hear when people complain is passive on my part, not active.

If I want to try to make people feel better and encourage them, I'll do it. I'll also use whatever examples I want. "Bodybuilding" is not "competitive bodybuilding, though it can be. It is about self-improvement. I don't need your permission or approval to make statements. I think I made that clear in my post. I was just trying to be nice about it.

That was my point.

Your statements about subjectivity mixed with your highly subjective analysis of "what men like" and "what women think" are contradictory.

Regarding your "schooling me" on bodybuilding philosophy or anything bodybuilding....

probably not.

[TurbulentFluid]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

You are simply extrapolating information that is not there. Where did I say "what I think"? What I hear when people complain is passive on my part, not active.

If I want to try to make people feel better and encourage them, I'll do it. I'll also use whatever examples I want. "Bodybuilding" is not "competitive bodybuilding, though it can be. It is about self-improvement. I don't need your permission or approval to make statements. I think I made that clear in my post. I was just trying to be nice about it.

That was my point.

Your statements about subjectivity mixed with your highly subjective analysis of "what men like" and "what women think" are contradictory.

Regarding your "schooling me" on bodybuilding philosophy or anything bodybuilding....

probably not.

Ah, I didn't see you replied to me here... Anyway, sure, whatever.

Also, I didn't wanna "school" you, if you aspire to schooling people, I don't... At least if I'm not paid for it! Also, I'm glad you wanna make people feel GOOD about themselves, but I believe raw info is better than patting someone on the shoulder. Also, of course you don't need anyone's approval - apart from the mods - where the heck did THAT idea come from? You just can't quote someone and expect them not to reply to you, and I really didn't feel like some fella coming to female bb site and patting me on the shoulder. Kinda makes me puke - no offense, go be "nice about it" to someone else. A reply I'd welcome would be "you can lower your bf...", or "you could tweak your routine...", what do I care what your girlfriend keeps saying...

Anyway, I just thought I'd point out that what "women in offices" say has very little to do with any kind of bodybuilding - competitive or not. Also, I didn't use any "highly subjective analysis of "what men like" and "what women think" ", re-read my post - I only accused YOU of doing that ... or better don't re-read my posts, I won't be feeding this troll thread anymore - looks VERY useless. And sorry, I usually don't bash people really - and from some other threads where I saw your posts you actually seem like you know a thing or two - sadly you "stepped on my toe".

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

Ah, I didn't see you replied to me here... Anyway, sure, whatever.

Also, I didn't wanna "school" you, if you aspire to schooling people, I don't... At least if I'm not paid for it! Also, I'm glad you wanna make people feel GOOD about themselves, but I believe raw info is better than patting someone on the shoulder. Also, of course you don't need anyone's approval - apart from the mods - where the heck did THAT idea come from? You just can't quote someone and expect them not to reply to you, and I really didn't feel like some fella coming to female bb site and patting me on the shoulder. Kinda makes me puke - no offense, go be "nice about it" to someone else. A reply I'd welcome would be "you can lower your bf...", or "you could tweak your routine...", what do I care what your girlfriend keeps saying...

Anyway, I just thought I'd point out that what "women in offices" say has very little to do with any kind of bodybuilding - competitive or not. Also, I didn't use any "highly subjective analysis of "what men like" and "what women think" ", re-read my post - I only accused YOU of doing that ... or better don't re-read my posts, I won't be feeding this troll thread anymore - looks VERY useless. And sorry, I usually don't bash people really - and from some other threads where I saw your posts you actually seem like you know a thing or two - sadly you "stepped on my toe".

I'm not going to listen to a bunch of crap for trying to be nice. Ain't happnin'. I'm also not going to listen to a lecture about "raw info" from someone who asks beyond basic questions about training yet gives "advice" like a friggin' pro. I give as much or more "raw info" than anyone on here.

First, this is not a womans bb site. Unless I am missing something. I guess 34 year olds can't post on the "over 35" section, and the programs section is only for those currently following "programs". I have over 6000 posts. Some are bound to be in the "womens" forum. Don't like it? Tough ****. I like to discuss bodybuilding. Period. I also like good conversation. If I see something interesting, I'm going to post. Sorry if you don't like it in the sense that I'm not going to stop.

Typical "liberal as long as you think like me" mentality. I get the feeling you would be the first complaining if there was a mens only section...

Second, most of the questions on here are from women trying to improve themselves, not become competitive bodybuilders.

And I wasn't just talking to you. I said LADIES. Do you have MPD? If not, the context should have been quite clear.

Face it, you argue just to argue. If you are going to do that, don't front and just do it.

Proof?

Here you go:

First, you post this:

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid
Yes, I would. Actually, up to now I wasn't sure what sex you were, nor was I interested.

Yet EARLIER IN THE THREAD, you replied to this:

Originally Posted by Defiant1

Shhhhh.....everyone thinks I'm a mean woman on this forum....

with this:

Originally Posted by TF

Why not?" Asks the mean woman to the one that everyone thinks IS the mean woman.

You also have responded to other posts that made it quite clear I am a guy. I can dig them up too, but I think I made my point.

So, you knew damned well I am a guy. Therefore the comment was pure rhetoric.

When I said, before; "message received", I meant "OK, I won't comment on your threads since you sound like an ass". I guess I wasn't clear. I was willing to leave it at that.

[TurbulentFluid]

Hehehe, if you were, you wouldn't spit all the bile here, lolol! Sure, um, I've no problem about you thinking I'm an ass! What surprises me is that you find my posts so "dangerous"? The stuff you say about me having a problem with you posting here is totally a figment of your big imagination: all I had a problem with is someone equalising my comment about getting the fat off my abs (which means getting from 19% bf to around 16-17, or possibly lower), to what "women in officies" and people with names like "Girlfriend" usually say, which commonly means "sitting on my ass and hoping I'll lose my weight, but I won't DO anything about it so I better try and attract some attention anyway". I hate such people, they piss me off, and I don't wanna be put on the same boat with them. OK? THAT'S what I was saying. Everything else is your own narrative, even going down to plainly insulting me. You're a funny creature.

And why are you so stuck up about me knowing or not knowing you're a guy? I certanly don't find that important, but if I MUST explain... No, I wasn't sure then and I'm not sure now. What you said and I quoted ("everyone thinks IS the mean woman") you may have said in jest, or may have not. The bottom line is: who CARES? How do you know I'm not some 13-year-old boy copying answers from other posts when I sound like a pro, and asking silly questions afterwards? Or maybe I'm a 78-year-old male psychologist studying bodybuilders, happily taking notes right now as I'm pondering whether to include a study of "how personally do people take the Internet" into my current research? Or maybe I AM a girl, but transvestite-wise? How do you know? You don't. If you find any info I gave in other treads, DO correct it, best you can - we're all here to learn, and we're all here at different levels of knowledge in different areas (hence some of us seem to be giving advice like a pro in some areas, and not know anything in some others.) And then there's people who think they know just about everything - hell, they might - or maybe they're copying it out of some book, who cares, as long as you can seek it out elsewhere, confirm it, and use it as "relevant".

But if you wanna get stuff down to the personal level like you're doing now - oh geez, sorry, but that's quite impossible. This IS an internet chatboard, after all, and while I'm not willing to compromise it by giving any false info or anything (which should be banned, too), I'm also at loss with people who take everything they read on the net as signifficant. Why are you resiecing a reply to this? Oh geez, 'cause I'm at work and clueless about what to do now, so I'm waiting for the inspiration to strike! Hopefully it does, hm, the boss will be snarly...

[Defiant1]

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

Hehehe, if you were, you wouldn't spit all the bile here, lolol! Sure, um, I've no problem about you thinking I'm an ass! What surprises me is that you find my posts so "dangerous"? The stuff you say about me having a problem with you posting here is totally a figment of your big imagination: all I had a problem with is someone equalising my comment about getting the fat off my abs (which means getting from 19% bf to around 16-17, or possibly lower), to what "women in officies" and people with names like "Girlfriend" usually say, which commonly means "sitting on my ass and hoping I'll lose my weight, but I won't DO anything about it so I better try and attract some attention anyway". I hate such people, they piss me off, and I don't wanna be put on the same boat with them. OK? THAT'S what I was saying. Everything else is your own narrative, even going down to plainly insulting me. You're a funny creature.

And why are you so stuck up about me knowing or not knowing you're a guy? I certanly don't find that important, but if I MUST explain... No, I wasn't sure then and I'm not sure now. What you said and I quoted ("everyone thinks IS the mean woman") you may have said in jest, or may have not. The bottom line is: who CARES? How do you know I'm not some 13-year-old boy copying answers from other posts when I sound like a pro, and asking silly questions afterwards? Or maybe I'm a 78-year-old male psychologist studying bodybuilders, happily taking notes right now as I'm pondering whether to include a study of "how personally do people take the Internet" into my current research? Or maybe I AM a girl, but transvestite-wise? How do you know? You don't. If you find any info I gave in other treads, DO correct it, best you can - we're all here to learn, and we're all here at different levels of knowledge in different areas (hence some of us seem to be giving advice like a pro in some areas, and not know anything in some others.) And then there's people who think they know just about everything - hell, they might - or maybe they're copying it out of some book, who cares, as long as you can seek it out elsewhere, confirm it, and use it as "relevant".

But if you wanna get stuff down to the personal level like you're doing now - oh geez, sorry, but that's quite impossible. This IS an internet chatboard, after all, and while I'm not willing to compromise it by giving any false info or anything (which should be banned, too), I'm also at loss with people who take everything they read on the net as signifficant. Why are you resiecing a reply to this? Oh geez, 'cause I'm at work and clueless about what to do now, so I'm waiting for the inspiration to strike! Hopefully it does, hm, the boss will be snarly...

I think your "TurbulentFluid" might be cerebral. Or "Turbo" might refer to Cyclothymic episodes.

Ohhh....so now it's just an "internet chatboard". Before it was:

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

THEN you went adding what your girlfriend and women you know thought. Unless they're ALL bodybuilders, which I find unlikely, why should we find THEIR opinions relevant?

and

Originally Posted by TurbulentFluid

In short, if you wanna give mentally supportive statements on people's looks based on your own preferences or some widely accepted averages, go post on a different forum.

The "abs start to show at X% is laughable. Typical book quote. The abs start to show when the abs start to show. Are you sure it's not 17.5% or 15.9%?

Second, the people you refer to, the "girls" that I work with that know nothing about training except sitting on their asses....One is about 12% bodyfat TOPS and is a rock-climber and swimmer. The other works out regularly and is certainly less than 20%. That was part of my point.

Poor UNREALISTIC body image keeps many women from training in gyms and also just makes them unhappy and unrealistic about results. I know, I have trained people. And I also observe.

Regarding "significance", if you mean do I listen to bull**** and say "oh well"....nope. Though it doesn't take much mental energy to respond. So it's no problem.

[TurbulentFluid]

Originally Posted by Defiant1

I think your "TurbulentFluid" might be cerebral. Or "Turbo" might refer to Cyclothymic episodes.

Ohhh....so now it's just an "internet chatboard". Before it was:

The "abs start to show at X% is laughable. Typical book quote. The abs start to show when the abs start to show. Are you sure it's not 17.5% or 15.9%?

Second, the people you refer to, the "girls" that I work with that know nothing about training except sitting on their asses....One is about 12% bodyfat TOPS and is a rock-climber and swimmer. The other works out regularly and is certainly less than 20%. That was part of my point.

Poor UNREALISTIC body image keeps many women from training in gyms and also just makes them unhappy and unrealistic about results. I know, I have trained people. And I also observe.

Regarding "significance", if you mean do I listen to bull**** and say "oh well"....nope. Though it doesn't take much mental energy to respond. So it's no problem.

So I'm supposed to know what people at your work look like? All I know you might be surrounded by some fatass accountants. If that was you point, you may have said it, not wisely conclude "yeah, well EVERYONE knows what I do, so does the person who's most probably 5 time zones away from me".
I do stand by all I said, tho.

lol yeah, it IS only an internet chatboard. Actually, if someone asked me, if you weren't this fun, apart from your nickname I could name maybe two that I often see. I don't take this very real (people wise. I take it as failry relevant info-wise). The problem with it is that it leaves the emotions of the replier to the reader's own imagination. Which then the reader models the way they would feel if they wrote it - forgetting that's not always the case, and that other people react differently. So you decided I lost sleep over your posts and wrote them in a fit of anger... Whereas I only wanted to point out we don't need mental support in the manner of "Ladies this. means. YOU.", which sounded more like "hey you're ****able enough", which I found to be funny digression to answers on a relevant question. So I pointed that out.

In other words; "do I listen to bull**** and say "oh well""? HELL YEAH sure I do - all the time! I do it in real life, and I certanly do it here, lol! If I let someone I don't know and have never met and will never meet tip me off, I'd certanly HAVE a valid psychological diagnosis, not just insults posted by someone on an internet thread! Man, if I reacted to all the bull**** out there... where would it get me?? Also, my name comes from my work - it's what I do at present - study turbulent fluid flows. Not that it should interest you, anyway.

I'm sure my abs start to show at around 17%. Just because they don't show it doesn't mean they never showed before - another assuption of yours. To be an impossible nitpick, the idea of measuring bf% correctly is redicilous, though, so if I was a patronising person like you, with my experience of field-on measurements in my work and experience with measuring equipment, I'd now educate you firther on just how funny it is to actually place a decimal point on a bf% measurement. Yes I know some caliper manufacturers will tell you stuff... but if I were you, I wouldn't buy it (the stuff they feed you about "accuracy", not the measuring equipment. It can only get SO precise.)

Anyway, again - all I wanted to say is that I - since you chose to quote me - needed no feedback on your girlfriend, or your co-workers whom I don't give a hoot about. you chose to make it a big narrative.

But no, it doesn't take much effort to reply - so I'll keep pissing you off, I LOVE how you look up the words to insult me!