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Old 07-19-2005, 08:32 AM   #1
Ace_2004
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American revolution without france = lost ?

Just went to this website that details alot of the wars and battles fought mainly between the british and americans in the american revolution war.

Im suprised because the british won alot of the battles and its only untill the french helped that the british surrendered and thats because they were outnumbered.

Heres the battles and their outcomes.......


Battle: Concord and Lexington 1775
Combatants: British Troops and the Militia of Massachusett
Size of the armies: 1,800 British. American numbers unknown.
Winner: The British suffered extensive loss. The Americans considered the contest an encouraging start to the war

The Battle of Bunker Hill
Combatants: British troops of the Boston garrison against troops of the American Continental Army
Size of the armies: 2,400 British troops against 1,500 Americans
Winner:The British by driving the Americans from the Charlestown peninsula it was with heavy loss.

The Battle of Quebec
Combatants: American troops attacked a force comprised of British recruits and Canadian volunteers
Size of the armies: Around 1,200 on each side.
Winner: The British and Canadian garrison drove off the American attack and ended the threat to the British control of Canada.

The Battle of Long Island
Combatants: British and the American Continental Army
Size of the armies engaged: 20,000 British and Hessian Troops and around 10,000 Americans
Winner: The British drove the Americans from Brooklyn and forced them to evacuate New York.

Battle: Harlem Heights
Combatants: Small forces of Americans and British
Winner: An inconclusive fight which revived American morale but had no particular benefit for either side.

Battle: White Plains
Combatants: British against the Americans
Size of the armies: 13,000 British and German troops against 14,500 Americans, although only around 4,000 on each side were actually engaged
Winner: The Americans were driven back but were enabled to draw off from the White Plain position and march into New Jersey while the British returned to Manhattan. Generally considered to have been a drawn battle. However the American garrison on Manhattan and in Fort Washington was left to its fate

Battle: Fort Washington
Combatants: British and German troops against the American Continental Arm
Size of the armies: 8,000 British and German troops attacked some 2,900 American troops.
Winner: The British and Germans who stormed Harlem Heights

Battle: Trenton
Combatants: Americans against Hessians and British troops
Size of the armies:
2,400 American troops with 18 guns. 1,400 Hessians with 6 light guns
Winner: The battle was a resounding physical and moral victory for Washington and his American troops.

Battle: Princeton
Combatants: Americans against the British
Size of the armies: 7,000 Americans against 8,000 British and Hessians although only 1,200 British troops were principally engaged
Winner:
The Americans outmanoeuvred the British and escaped Cornwallis’ encircling move, although the troops of Mawhood’s two regiments, the british 17th and 55th Foot, must be considered the heroes of the battle.

Battle: Ticonderoga 1777
Combatants: British, Hessians and Brunswickers against the American Colonists
Size of the armies:
7,213 regular British, Hessian and Brunswick troops, a varying but large contingent of Native Americans and some 150 Canadians against some 3,000 American troops.
Winner: The Americans withdrew precipitately from Ticonderoga leaving it in British hands.

The Battle of Hubbardton 1777
Combatants: British and Americans
Size of the forces: About 1,000 British and German troops against around 1,000 Americans.
Winner: The British and German troops

The Battle of Bennington
Combatants: Germans, British, Canadians, Indians and loyalist Americans from Major General John Burgoyne’s British Army against American Colonists, largely New England militia.
Size of the armies:
Baum’s force numbered 650. Stark lead around 2,000 Americans. Breyman came up with 600 men. Baum and Breyman each had two 3-pounder guns.
Winner: Resoundingly the Americans.

Battle: Brandywine Creek
Combatants: British and Hessian troops against the American Continental Army
Size of the armies: Around 6,000 British and Hessians against 8,000 Americans.
Winner: The British and Hessians were left occupying the field having driven the Americans from their position on Brandywine Creek

The Battle of Freeman's Farm
Combatants: British, Germans, Canadians, Indians and loyalist Americans against American Colonists.
Size of the armies:
The British forces numbered around 6,000 effectives, while the American army comprised around 14,000 men
Winner:
The British were left on the field but suffered significantly higher casualties than the Americans, which they could ill afford. This was a battle Burgoyne had to win. He did not, due to the inspired generalship of the Arnold.

The Battle of Paoli also known as the Paoli Massacre
Combatants: Americans and the British
Size of the armies: Around 1,500 men in Wayne’s Pennsylvania Continental Division and some 1,000 of Smallwood’s Maryland Militia. Grey’s British brigade comprised some 2,000 men
Winner: This was a decisive British success

The Battle of Germantown 1777
Combatants: The American Continental Army against the British and Hessian forces
Size of the armies: 11,000 Americans against 8,000 British and Hessians.
Winner: The British won the battle although failing to follow up the success, permitting Washington to withdraw and reform his army behind fortified positions.

Battle: SARATOGA
Combatants: British and German troops against the Americans
Size of the armies: The British force comprised some 5,000 British, Brunswickers, Canadians and Indians. By the time of the surrender the American force was around 12,000 to 14,000 militia and troops.
Winner: The Americans forced the surrender of Burgoyne’s force

The Battle of Monmouth 1778
Combatants: The army of British and German troops against American Continental troops and militia.
Size of the armies: 10,000 British troops against 11,000 Americans
Winner: The battle is generally taken as a draw.

Battle: CAMDEN
Combatants: British and Germans against the Americans
Size of the armies: The British comprised 1,500 hundred regulars and 500 militia. The American army comprised 1,500 Continental troops and some 1,500 militia
Winner: The British

Battle: King’s Mountain
Combatants: Tory or loyalist Americans against Whig or patriot American Revolutionaries.
Size of the armies: Numbers are uncertain but there seem to have been around 1,000 on each side
Winner: Resoundingly the American Revolutionaries. The loyalist force was annihilated

Battle: COWPENS
Combatants: Americans against the British and loyalist Americans
Size of the armies: The Americans had around 1,000 men and the British around 1,100.
Winner: The Americans, overwhelmingly.

Battle: Guildford Courthouse
Combatants: British against the Americans
Size of the armies: Around 1,900 British against 4,400 Americans
Winner: The British won a Pyrrhic victory

The Battle of Yorktown 1781
Combatants: Americans and French against the British
Size of the armies: 8,800 Americans, 7,800 French and 6,000 British
Winner: The Americans and French
Casualties:
6,000 British surrendered to the Americans and French with 10 stands of German and British colours, 240 pieces of artillery, small arms, ammunition and equipment.
The casualties during the siege had been 500 British, 80 Americans and 200 French


(http://www.britishbattles.com)

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Old 07-19-2005, 08:38 AM   #2
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mmm.. and your point is..?
hope it's not to belittle the american revolution?
that's how revolutions go.. someone must step in and set things straight..
so...........?
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Old 07-19-2005, 08:41 AM   #3
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I'd have to say that I think we would have won the war without France's help, simply because we had one tactical advantage - Britain had to win, we only had to force a stalemate. Even if the American forces were pressed into a truce, Britain would have taxed the colonies like crazy to recoup their expenses of the war, which would have just started things all over again.

That being said, I'm glad the French helped, because at the very least, the war would have dragged on longer, and who knows how that would have affected the history of our nation. It's one of the (few) things France has done that I am grateful for, even if they only did it because they were Britain's rival.
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Old 07-19-2005, 08:44 AM   #4
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America didn't really "beat" the British.....we just became too much of a pain the ass to make it worth their while.

(Kind of like what the insurgents are doing in Iraq right now)
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Old 07-19-2005, 08:47 AM   #5
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And French revolution would not be without america's inspiration, so?
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Old 07-19-2005, 08:58 AM   #6
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I think we still would have won, but it would have taken longer, and cost many more lives.
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:35 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatsMakeTheMan
America didn't really "beat" the British.....we just became too much of a pain the ass to make it worth their while.

(Kind of like what the insurgents are doing in Iraq right now)

Yep.
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:37 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatsMakeTheMan
America didn't really "beat" the British.....we just became too much of a pain the ass to make it worth their while.

(Kind of like what the insurgents are doing in Iraq right now)
Not the same, we actually fight like men...

Iraq terrorists blow up there own people...

DG
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:55 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petey_G
Not the same, we actually fight like men...

Iraq terrorists blow up there own people...

DG
Well yea.....but I'm talking about the "war of attrition" aspect of it.
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Old 07-19-2005, 09:59 AM   #10
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so is Ace going to post and then not continue with whatever point he was making?

These are pretty well-accepted facts, so I see no need for discussion, really. If this was a troll, it was a pretty professional one. (if there be such a dragon)
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Old 07-19-2005, 10:24 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LatsMakeTheMan
America didn't really "beat" the British.....we just became too much of a pain the ass to make it worth their while.

(Kind of like what the insurgents are doing in Iraq right now)

This is the key point actually...

A-symetrical warfare has a great success rate for this reason alone...

And one of the things not mentioned in all those British battles, are the American Raids, small ambushes, sabotaging activities etc... Which when you look at the war on the large scale seem pretty small, but they started adding up to a serious tally on the British side. Not to mention the demoralization factor.

The same way that we won our independence, is also the same way that we lost Vietnam, because the Viet cong (While tactically different of course) were strategically doing many of the same things that we were doing to the British.

Now we're simply repeating Vietnam, just with 21st century reasons and tactics.
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Old 07-19-2005, 10:36 AM   #12
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The main part that is overlooked is that the French helped finance the American Revolution, so their contribution wasn't with manpower as much as it was with other resources until 1778.
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Old 07-19-2005, 01:26 PM   #13
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The French certainly helped, but a bigger issue was that the Brits were in multiple wars around the globe, so they just didn't have enough left to fight in America. If they wanted to win, they would have had to forfeit other wars. They decided it was smarter to let us go and focus on their other colonies.
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Old 07-19-2005, 01:32 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nainoa
And one of the things not mentioned in all those British battles, are the American Raids, small ambushes, sabotaging activities etc...
Yeah, man. Mel Gibson really whipped some ass back then.

/oh...so The Patriot wasn't a documentary? crap.
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Old 07-19-2005, 05:36 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrushR
so is Ace going to post and then not continue with whatever point he was making?

These are pretty well-accepted facts, so I see no need for discussion, really. If this was a troll, it was a pretty professional one. (if there be such a dragon)
Been busy all day, im not trolling, that website just interested me thas all so i thought id post the stats of some of the battles so people didnt have to keep clicking on the webpages.
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Old 07-19-2005, 05:42 PM   #16
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This is why it's so funny when many Americans bash the French for their lack of support for Iraq, talking about how they 'owe you' after WW2.

If it were't for the french, the US wouldn't be what it is today, nor would you have the Statue of Liberty.
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:27 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by A & B
This is why it's so funny when many Americans bash the French for their lack of support for Iraq, talking about how they 'owe you' after WW2.

If it were't for the french, the US wouldn't be what it is today, nor would you have the Statue of Liberty.
no we would be here
everyone who said it would take longer and such is right.
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Old 07-19-2005, 06:34 PM   #18
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The problem with the French is that they are xenophobic, which, I suppose is ironic in a way (guess which way).
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:03 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A & B
If it were't for the french, the US wouldn't be what it is today, nor would you have the Statue of Liberty.
Why yes, we would be the same, it just would have taken a little longer.

As to the Statue of Liberty, I got a good kick out of "sendherback.org". (no longer available)

Pretty funny...an argument coming from Canada. If it wasn't for the US, Canada would be...well...not Canada.
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Old 07-20-2005, 08:04 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Ace_2004
i thought id post the stats of some of the battles so people didnt have to keep clicking on the webpages.
aww...how sweet...saving me clicks.



just kidding. good post, actually.
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