British Muslims speak up on terror attacks (who says they stay silent?)

morgansd12 · 07-11-2005, 10:45 AM

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/l...9634?version=1
Four young British Muslims in their twenties - a social worker, an IT specialist, a security guard and a financial adviser - occupy a table at a fast-food chicken restaurant in Luton. Perched on their plastic chairs, wolfing down their dinner, they seem just ordinary young men. Yet out of their mouths pour heated words of revolution.

"As far as I'm concerned, when they bomb London, the bigger the better," says Abdul Haq, the social worker. "I know it's going to happen because Sheikh bin Laden said so. Like Bali, like Turkey, like Madrid - I pray for it, I look forward to the day."

"Pass the brown sauce, brother," says Abu Malaahim, the IT specialist, devouring his chicken and chips.

"I agree with you, brother," says Abu Yusuf, the earnest-looking financial adviser sitting opposite. "I would like to see the Mujahideen coming into London and killing thousands, whether with nuclear weapons or germ warfare. And if they need a safehouse, they can stay in mine - and if they need some fertiliser [for a bomb], I'll tell them where to get it."

His friend, Abu Musa, the security guard, smiles radiantly. "It will be a day of joy for me," he adds, speaking with a slight lisp.

As they talk, a man with a bushy beard, dressed in a jacket emblazoned with the word "Jihad", stands and watches over them, handing around cups of steaming hot coffee. His real name is Ishtiaq Alamgir, but he goes by his adopted name, Sayful Islam, meaning "Sword of Islam". He is the 24-year-old leader of the Luton branch of al-Muhajiroun, an extremist Muslim group with about 800 members countrywide, who regard Osama bin Laden as their hero.

Until recently, nobody took the fanatical beliefs of al-Muhajiroun too seriously, believing that a British-based group so brazenly "out there" could not be involved in something as "underground" as terrorism. The group is led by the exiled Saudi, Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad, from his base in north London. Yesterday, in a magazine article, Bakri warned that several radical groups are poised to strike in London.

For all its inflammatory rhetoric, al-Muhajiroun has never been linked to actual violence. Yet, with the discovery last month of half-a-tonne of ammonium nitrate fertiliser - the same explosive ingredient used in the Bali and Turkey terror attacks - and with the arrest of eight young British Muslims in London and the South-East, including six in Luton, extremist groups such as al-Muhajiroun are under the spotlight like never before.

Detectives fear that the "enemy within", the homegrown extremists leading apparently normal lives in suburbia, now pose the greatest threat to security in Britain. Sayful and his friends fit this "homegrown" profile: three were born here, two came as young children from Pakistan; all were educated in local Luton schools; and they grew up in families of full employment - one of their fathers is a retired local businessman, two are engineers, and two worked in the local Vauxhall car plant.

Nowhere has this public confrontation between radicals and moderates been more apparent than in Luton, which has the highest density of Muslims in the South-East - 28,000 out of a total population of 140,000 - and has long been regarded as a hotbed of extremism.

Sayful Islam, for one, is particularly proud of his contribution to Luton's hardline reputation. His exploits include covering the town with " Magnificent 19" posters glorifying the 11 September suicide bombers. "When I joined al-Muhajiroun four years ago, there were five local members," he says. "Now there are more than 50 and hundreds more support us."

The strange thing is that four years ago, Sayful Islam was a jeans-clad student completing his degree in business economics at Middlesex University in Hendon, north London.

The son of a British Rail engineer who came to this country from Pakistan, Sayful grew up in a moderate, middle-class Muslim family in Luton. At the local Denbigh High School, he is remembered as one of the smartest kids, and was selected to attend a science masterclass at Cambridge University. He would go on to marry, have two children and find work as an accountant for the Inland Revenue in Luton. He was thoroughly uninterested in politics.

THEN he met Sheikh Omar Bakri Mohammad at a local event. Within two years, he had swapped his decently paid job as an accountant for an unpaid one as a political agitator. What turned him into an extremist? And how far is he prepared to go to achieve his aims?

Prior to seeing the group at the fastfood restaurant, Sayful meets me at his semi-detached rented home in Bury Park, Luton's Muslim neighbourhood. He no longer works, even though he is able-bodied, he admits, preferring instead to claim housing benefit and jobseeker's allowance. He smiles sheepishly and says the irony is not lost on him that the British state is supporting him financially, even as he plots to "overthrow it".

"I made a decision that I wanted to follow what Islam really said," Sayful begins, sitting on his sofa in his thowb (a traditional robe) and bare feet. "I went to listen to all the local imams, but I found their portrayal of Islam was too secularised. When I heard Sheikh Omar [the leader] of al-Muhajiroun speak, it was pure Islam, with no compromise. I found that appealing.

"At the same time," continues Sayful, "wars were happening in Bosnia, Kosovo, Chechnya, Afghanistan. People were being oppressed simply because they were Muslim. Although I had never experienced racism in the UK, it opened the eyes of a lot of Muslims, including mine."

But it was the events of 11 September that crystallised Sayful's worldview. "When I watched those planes go into the Twin Towers, I felt elated," he says. "That magnificent action split the world into two camps: you were either with Islam and al Qaeda, or with the enemy. I decided to quit my job and commit myself full-time to al-Muhajiroun." Now he does not consider himself British. "I am a Muslim living in Britain, and I give my allegiance only to Allah."

According to Sayful, the aim of al-Muhajiroun ("the immigrants") is nothing less than Khilafah - "the worldwide domination of Islam". The way to achieve this, he says, is by Jihad, led by Bin Laden. "I support him 100 per cent."

Does that support extend to violent acts of terrorism in the UK?

"Yes," he replies, unequivocally. "When a bomb attack happens here, I won't be against it, even if it kills my own children. Islam is clear: Muslims living in lands that are occupied have the right to attack their invaders.

"Britain became a legitimate target when it sent troops to Iraq. But it is against Islam for me to engage personally in acts of terrorism in the UK because I live here. According to Islam, I have a covenant of security with the UK, as long as they allow us Muslims to live here in peace."

HE USES the phrase "covenant of security" constantly. He attempts to explain. "If we want to engage in terrorism, we would have to leave the country," he says. "It is against Islam to do otherwise." Such a course of action, he says, he is not prepared to undertake. This is why, Sayful claims, it is consistent, and not cowardly, for him to espouse the rhetoric of terrorism, the "martyrdom-operations", while simultaneouslylimiting himself to nonviolentactions such as leafletting outside Luton town hall.

He denies any link between al-Muhajiroun and the Muslims arrested in the recent police raids. But, as I later discover at the fastfood restaurant, not everyone attaching themselves, however loosely, to al-Muhajiroun draws the same line. Two members of the group - Abu Yusuf, the financial adviser, and Abu Musa, the security guard - scorn al-Muhajiroun as "too moderate".

"I am freelance," says Abu Yusuf, fixing me with his piercing brown eyes. What does that mean? I ask.

"The difference between us and those two," interjects Abu Malaahim, pointing to Musa and Yusuf, "is that us lot do a verbal thing, [but] those brothers actually want to do a physical thing."

Referring to the latest truce offered by Bin Laden, and Britain's scathing rejection of it, Abu Malaahim adds: "He tried to make a peace deal. When terrorism happens, you will only have yourselves to blame."

How far are you prepared to go? I ask.

"You want to know how far I will go," says Abu Musa, his high-pitched lisp rising an octave. "When Allah said in the Koran 'kill and be killed', that's what I want. I want a martyr operation, where I kill my enemy."

Are you saying, I probe, that you are looking to kill people yourself ? "Yes," Abu Musa says, "to kill and to be killed." He emphasises each word.

It is hard to know whether Musa and Yusuf are deadly serious or just pumped full of misguided, youthful bravado. Though I see coldness - even ruthlessness - in their eyes, I sense no malice. Both young men agree, perhaps foolishly, to be quoted using their real names, though they decline photographs - thus illustrating their uncertainty of which way to jump.

Sulaiman insists that Sayful Islam and his crew are not welcome at the mosque. He cannot prevent them praying there, but he will never give them a platform. "I've told Sayful to bugger off and ejected him many times," he says brusquely. "Even Sayful's father, who I know well, thinks his son has been brainwashed."

But Sayful and his friends laugh at the idea that they are local pariahs. "The mosques say one thing to the public, and something else to us. Let's just say that the face you see and the face we see are two different faces," says Abdul Haq. "Believe me," adds Musa, "behind closed doors, there are no moderate Muslims."

Hartski · 07-11-2005, 10:47 AM

They always say this **** to reporters. Why are there no reporters that take this stuff to the athorities, or better yet, shoot the terrorrists right there?

LatsMakeTheMan · 07-11-2005, 10:59 AM

I guess they consider themselves too "important" to actually strap the bomb on themselves, though.

SYRIANKID · 07-11-2005, 11:12 AM

Idea: quote scholars instead of four random Muslims on the street.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4660411.stm

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...ghlight=london

Stand Ablaze · 07-11-2005, 11:13 AM

Er..

As far as I know, muslims will only eat halal meat.. I doubt somewhere like KFC blesses the meat before it slaughters them... so thats how much thier opinion matters as muslims.

Hartski · 07-11-2005, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Idea: quote scholars instead of four random Muslims on the street.

Scholars aren't the ones blowing up innocent women and children. It's the random ones with extremist views that are the problem.

SYRIANKID · 07-11-2005, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hartski

Scholars aren't the ones blowing up innocent women and children. It's the random ones with extremist views that are the problem.

Well as long as you realize it's random ones who ignore scholars and want to commit crimes.

That's exactly what an extremist is = I will go against every scholarly thing that refutes me and do my own thing because I think I'm right.

PowerSwede · 07-11-2005, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Well as long as you realize it's random ones who ignore scholars and want to commit crimes.

That's exactly what an extremist is = I will go against every scholarly thing that refutes me and do my own thing because I think I'm right.

You fail to see the point yet again, they find support in their religion for their actions, the question isn't whether they have the right interpretation or not, the question is why do they have that particular interpretation and why does it seem to be more common than not when you ask muslims anonymously all over the world?

SYRIANKID · 07-11-2005, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

You fail to see the point yet again, they find support in their religion for their actions, the question isn't whether they have the right interpretation or not, the question is why do they have that particular interpretation and why does it seem to be more common than not when you ask muslims anonymously all over the world?

...You do realize that a person can find justification for almost anything if they piece together their own proofs and ignore those that contradict them.

Do you realize how many WRONG things a person can find justification for if they just glue together something that makes it ok for themselves?

There are RULES to interpretation that prevent people from doing anything they THINK is right. There's something called evaluating ALL textual evidence to come to the right conclusion.

I also disagree with your last claim. Who said "they" (extremists) have the more common interpretation? It is not supported by anyone but a small group of formally uneducated youths and some radicals groups.

LatsMakeTheMan · 07-11-2005, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

It is not supported by anyone but a small group of formally uneducated youths and some radicals groups.

Two of the guys mentioned in the article are an IT technician and a financial advisor. Not exactly "uneducated."

I realize that a relatively small percentage of Muslims feel this way, but the fact is that it only takes a few extremists to plan these kinds of attacks.

PowerSwede · 07-11-2005, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

...You do realize that a person can find justification for almost anything if they piece together their own proofs and ignore those that contradict them.

Do you realize how many WRONG things a person can find justification for if they just glue together something that makes it ok for themselves?

There are RULES to interpretation that prevent people from doing anything they THINK is right. There's something called evaluating ALL textual evidence to come to the right conclusion.

I also disagree with your last claim. Who said "they" (extremists) have the more common interpretation? It is not supported by anyone but a small group of formally uneducated youths and some radicals groups.

The bold will speak when the shy are quiet, their loud voices are the ones that are heard, if you do not speak up against them your voice will forever be unheard.

Yet you think YOUR interpretation is correct just as much as they do, the RULES you have for interpretation, were they set by God or is it like every other faith, the rules of interpretation are the rules of men to make sense of the scripture?

Don't tell me you can't see the double standard you're applying here, you quote scripture frequently with your interpretation thereof, who died and made you the ruler of Islam and how it should be interpreted and why does it need to be interpreted at all?

Culmination · 07-11-2005, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Well as long as you realize it's random ones who ignore scholars and want to commit crimes.

That's exactly what an extremist is = I will go against every scholarly thing that refutes me and do my own thing because I think I'm right.

i agree, that article is trash. its like me saying white ppl speak out, in regard to the bombing of a baptist church. so what do i do? i go and have a sit down with some KKK members.

Illuminati · 07-11-2005, 11:58 AM

ban? (flamebaiting)

Stand Ablaze · 07-11-2005, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Two of the guys mentioned in the article are an IT technician and a financial advisor. Not exactly "uneducated."

I realize that a relatively small percentage of Muslims feel this way, but the fact is that it only takes a few extremists to plan these kinds of attacks.

Would it make a difference if it was another small minority of people from another religion?

Being a financial advisor and an IT technician is formal training and education, it's not a religious education about the values of the religion that should be highlighted over a bunch of headcases with bombs, and the supporters who will throw thier support behind them.

The topic of this thread is "British Muslims", as in, all muslims living in Britain, which is just wrong. Flat out wrong.

The islamic leaders that condemned the attacks are educated in thier religion, they aren't leaders for nothing, even if they aren't a financial advisor or an IT technician.

LatsMakeTheMan · 07-11-2005, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

Would it make a difference if it was another small minority of people from another religion?

Being a financial advisor and an IT technician is formal training and education, it's not a religious education about the values of the religion that should be highlighted over a bunch of headcases with bombs, and the supporters who will throw thier support behind them.

The topic of this thread is "British Muslims", as in, all muslims living in Britain, which is just wrong. Flat out wrong.

The islamic leaders that condemned the attacks are educated in thier religion, they aren't leaders for nothing, even if they aren't a financial advisor or an IT technician.

I don't think you need to be well-versed in any religion to know that bombing innocents is barbaric and evil, and that your God, whichever god it may be, wouldn't approve of ruthless killing no matter the reason.

Stand Ablaze · 07-11-2005, 12:49 PM

No, but these narrow minded individuals do believe that thier god approves of it, 100% thumbs up as a matter of fact. They abuse the meaning of Jihad and give thier religion a terrible name, which it does not deserve, at all. Someone educated on thier religion would understand that.

A complete disregard is not in the name of any religion (even if I don't agree with religion, it still stands), it's in the name of murder, and people uneducated in thier religion do not realise that. Basically they have thier head up thier own arses when it comes to any sort of "morallity" or human life.

Hartski · 07-11-2005, 12:49 PM

The thing is, almost anywhere else in the world, if you know your neighbor is a murderer or rapist, you turn their sorry asses in. But it seems like in the Middle East, it doesn't happen this way, even when the neighbors are making everyone in the region look bad.

PowerSwede · 07-11-2005, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LatsMakeTheMan

I don't think you need to be well-versed in any religion to know that bombing innocents is barbaric and evil, and that your God, whichever god it may be, wouldn't approve of ruthless killing no matter the reason.

If every man was as intelligent and reasoned as you, terrorists would not exist at all.

Personally, i can see the reasons for them being pissed off but not the reasons for their actions.

In the end, what they do to win only brings them further to a complete failure for their cause.

Stand Ablaze · 07-11-2005, 12:51 PM

There can be a lot of reasons for not turning people in, including self-protection.

JUSA · 07-11-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illuminati

ban? (flamebaiting)

For what? He posted a news article? God people are so damn sensitive when it comes to Muslims. I'm not saying I agree with this article or anything but it's pathetic Illuminati or someone else calling for a ban here would turn around and cheer a post about Christians being murderers or something. Why the hell do people walk around on egg shells when it comes to Muslims around here? ****, I got banned for NO REASON by Gimp simply because I took place in American Steak's thread about Mohammad's concubines.

JUSA

Hartski · 07-11-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

There can be a lot of reasons for not turning people in, including self-protection.

Sometimes, you gotta do what is right, even if it means getting hurt or killed.

Too-Extreme · 07-11-2005, 12:52 PM

Unreal just unreal

PowerSwede · 07-11-2005, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

There can be a lot of reasons for not turning people in, including self-protection.

Those who do nothing when they can, are as guilty as the criminals who did the deed.

PowerSwede · 07-11-2005, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny USA

For what? He posted a news article? God people are so damn sensitive when it comes to Muslims. I'm not saying I agree with this article or anything but it's pathetic Illuminati or someone else calling for a ban here would turn around and cheer a post about Christians being murderers or something. Why the hell do people walk around on egg shells when it comes to Muslims around here? ****, I got banned for NO REASON by Gimp simply because I took place in American Steak's thread about Mohammad's concubines.

JUSA

Show me ONE example when people CHEERED for an article that showed christian murderers.

If you can't, STFU!

I've argued against Mohammads marriage with Aesha, against Sharon as he's a war criminal, against the US, against this and against that, but i haven't even been threatened with a ban, why do you think that is?

Could it be your one track mind getting you into trouble?

LatsMakeTheMan · 07-11-2005, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

There can be a lot of reasons for not turning people in, including self-protection.

"We must all fear evil men. But there is an even greater evil that we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men."

- The Boondock Saints

LatsMakeTheMan · 07-11-2005, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PowerSwede

If every man was as intelligent and reasoned as you, terrorists would not exist at all.

Personally, i can see the reasons for them being pissed off but not the reasons for their actions.

In the end, what they do to win only brings them further to a complete failure for their cause.

*blush*

I don't blame them for being upset with America and it's allies, because we have been meddling in their affairs for quite some time. But it's the fact that they carry out their rebel actions in the name of their religion that pisses a lot of people off on both sides.

Stand Ablaze · 07-11-2005, 01:06 PM

Personally I'm very mixed minded about when it comes to reporting someone and living in fear of others because of it. Even if they have the right to give information, sometimes it's best for thier own lives not too. I'm sure people disagree with me, but I don't agree that someone should have to live thier lives in fear and even moving country and constantly watching thier back for the rest of thier lives, because they gave information. It's not good for your mind or your body and no one should have to go through it.

Illuminati · 07-11-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny USA

For what? He posted a news article? God people are so damn sensitive when it comes to Muslims. I'm not saying I agree with this article or anything but it's pathetic Illuminati or someone else calling for a ban here would turn around and cheer a post about Christians being murderers or something. Why the hell do people walk around on egg shells when it comes to Muslims around here? ****, I got banned for NO REASON by Gimp simply because I took place in American Steak's thread about Mohammad's concubines.

JUSA

First off you've been banned for being a rep troll.. you and your buddy big zeke both deserved it (i laughed my ass off when i saw big zeke is the moderator of the politics section at a certain *cough* other forum).. second, the rules say no FLAMEBATING... he's posted an article with questionable sources, but it involves 4 random people who just happen to be muslim, and the title suggests they speak for all british muslims. Topics about race, religion, and ethnicity are sensitive areas, which is all the more reason why completely ignorant threads like this should be banned. That native american kid who shot up his school apparently liked hitler- does that mean people can start threads titled 'native americans support hitlers actions'?

morgansd12 · 07-11-2005, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

Er..

As far as I know, muslims will only eat halal meat.. I doubt somewhere like KFC blesses the meat before it slaughters them... so thats how much thier opinion matters as muslims.

They do at there locations in places frequented by muslims. So does McD's and Wendy's. I ahve seen them.

morgansd12 · 07-11-2005, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stand Ablaze

No, but these narrow minded individuals do believe that thier god approves of it, 100% thumbs up as a matter of fact. They abuse the meaning of Jihad and give thier religion a terrible name, which it does not deserve, at all. Someone educated on thier religion would understand that.

A complete disregard is not in the name of any religion (even if I don't agree with religion, it still stands), it's in the name of murder, and people uneducated in thier religion do not realise that. Basically they have thier head up thier own arses when it comes to any sort of "morallity" or human life.

Hey, Why let a few million bad apples spoil the whole bunch?