Response To Patrick

[w_llewellyn]

there has never been a study on the use of AA according to your directions. I read a bit of your bb.com trial. You had people taking great pains to remove omega-3s and even oleic acid (olive oil) from their diets. Not only that, but any dietary or pharmaceutical product that is anti-inflammatory

you purposely created a condition in their bodies of unopposed AA activity

So once again, quoting of these studies is inappropriate

I just want to quickly respond to this, as you made a very bold statement and I felt it should be answered. To begin with, your assesment of what we recommend to customers is inaccurate. We do not go to great pains to eliminate omega 3s and olive oil from the diet. We tell people that they should not take supplements or diets unnecessarily rich in them. Big difference. You will continually find me saying things like "don't go crazy, just don't eat tons of it".

Now you say our safety studies are not relevant, because they allow for a "healthy balance" where we do not. But our diets are the same as what would be in a control diet. The study cited used 1.7grams of AA per day, and was an investigation into the safety of AA consumption. Every scientist in this field understands how the omega 3/omega 6 balance works, and would not enter an investigation allowing subjects to eat foods rich in O3s or take anti-inflammatory drugs that would counter the exact activity they are trying to investigate. It would be like trying to look at the effects of anabolic steroids while giving cotrisol injections and restricting protein. That is why they have "CONTROL" diets, and do not just allow subjects to eat whatever they want. The CONTROL diet will not be rich in O3s or olive oil in any such experiment on AA, unless they specifically wanted to look at the combined effects of O3 + AA. Our recommendations are our best attempts to get people to duplicate such a type of CONTROL diet on their own.

There is clearly also no longer a "healthy balance" as you would call it in an experiment that takes in so much AA anyway. They are causing exactly what we are with AA supplementation; a state with a high level of AA activity. Some of these same high dose studies I have cited in the past also look at PG synthesis, and report significant increases. Clearly what you are saying is contradictory to that. If PG synthesis is enhanced, there is no "healthy balance" counteracting the effects of AA. AA is being intensified just like we are doing with X-Factor .

You speak of platelet aggregation, and this is an issue well studied with AA. The study cited before by me (at 1.7 grams, much more than we recommend already) there is no significant shift at all. No danger. No safety issue.

The threshold for platelete AG to become out of the normal range is many fold higher than 1,000mg. I did take the time to understand this before selling it. For example, in: "Increased arachidonate in lipids after administration to man: effects on prostaglandin biosynthesis.: Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1975 Nov;18(5 Pt 1):521-9." Seyberth showed that it took 6,000mg for two to three weeks (6 times our maximum recommended dosage!) for figures to be altered to where they left the normal range. It happened to 2 subjects in the experiment, and still no adverse event was reported (that dosage would be 30 capsules per day, or 1 full bottle every 3 days!. The investigators wrote: "Although no symptoms or side effects were recognized, the platelet count was unchanged and no problems had been noted with administration of larger doses to humans by other investigators, it was decided not to continue...". They were being prudent, and I agree. At some high dosage this supplement could be dangerous if you were sick, maybe (never proven), but not how we use it. The study they reference is here, which again shows yet HIGHER doses to be used safetly. That reference is here if you care to look: Lancet. 1961 Apr 8;1:739-41.

1,000mg of arachidonic acid is not an absurdly high amount. We are working with what would still be considered "moderate" supplementation, although I admit for marketing purposes I often play it up a little (just definitions anyway). People that are on atkins type diets with heavy red meat consumption probably get close to this much AA already.


Patrick, you were on this forum last year telling everyone it wouldn't work. While I do invite you to study this very powerful fatty acid, I urge you not to jump to conslusions that are again easily disproven.


We are hoping to have clinical data on X-Factor to announce by the end of the year, and it will include all the necessary major health markers, including platelette aggregation values. We are doing this not because we feel its safety is unstudied - to the contrary, AA has seen more extensive study than the vast majority of supplements out there. We are doing this so everything can be presented in one very neat package.

If anyone wants to continue to speculate that is fine, but I urge you to take the same care you would speculating about your own products.

[laz]

Here comes another long one.....

[Slated]

Originally Posted by laz

Here comes another long one.....

I think this is good though.

I've learned alot from their posts. I can see both of their positions and spport both equally at this time. Being one of the larger guys in my area, alot of highschool and college age guys ask me about supps and I recommend both of them in the same sentence

[laz]

Originally Posted by Slated

I think this is good though.

I've learned alot from their posts. I can see both of their positions and spport both equally at this time. Being one of the larger guys in my area, alot of highschool and college age guys ask me about supps and I recommend both of them in the same sentence

I totallly agree! I get the same questions at my gym and also cuz i used to work at F I T R X . C O M until they fired me. I totally recommend both brands because i use them myself!

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by w_llewellyn

I just want to quickly respond to this, as you made a very bold statement and I felt it should be answered. To begin with, your assesment of what we recommend to customers is inaccurate. We do not go to great pains to eliminate omega 3s and olive oil from the diet. We tell people that they should not take supplements or diets unnecessarily rich in them. Big difference. You will continually find me saying things like "don't go crazy, just don't eat tons of it".

Now you say our safety studies are not relevant, because they allow for a "healthy balance" where we do not. But our diets are the same as what would be in a control diet. The study cited used 1.7grams of AA per day, and was an investigation into the safety of AA consumption. Every scientist in this field understands how the omega 3/omega 6 balance works, and would not enter an investigation allowing subjects to eat foods rich in O3s or take anti-inflammatory drugs that would counter the exact activity they are trying to investigate. It would be like trying to look at the effects of anabolic steroids while giving cotrisol injections and restricting protein. That is why they have "CONTROL" diets, and do not just allow subjects to eat whatever they want. The CONTROL diet will not be rich in O3s or olive oil in any such experiment on AA, unless they specifically wanted to look at the combined effects of O3 + AA. Our recommendations are our best attempts to get people to duplicate such a type of CONTROL diet on their own.

There is clearly also no longer a "healthy balance" as you would call it in an experiment that takes in so much AA anyway. They are causing exactly what we are with AA supplementation; a state with a high level of AA activity. Some of these same high dose studies I have cited in the past also look at PG synthesis, and report significant increases. Clearly what you are saying is contradictory to that. If PG synthesis is enhanced, there is no "healthy balance" counteracting the effects of AA. AA is being intensified just like we are doing with X-Factor .

You speak of platelet aggregation, and this is an issue well studied with AA. The study cited before by me (at 1.7 grams, much more than we recommend already) there is no significant shift at all. No danger. No safety issue.

The threshold for platelete AG to become out of the normal range is many fold higher than 1,000mg. I did take the time to understand this before selling it. For example, in: "Increased arachidonate in lipids after administration to man: effects on prostaglandin biosynthesis.: Clin Pharmacol Ther. 1975 Nov;18(5 Pt 1):521-9." Seyberth showed that it took 6,000mg for two to three weeks (6 times our maximum recommended dosage!) for figures to be altered to where they left the normal range. It happened to 2 subjects in the experiment, and still no adverse event was reported (that dosage would be 30 capsules per day, or 1 full bottle every 3 days!. The investigators wrote: "Although no symptoms or side effects were recognized, the platelet count was unchanged and no problems had been noted with administration of larger doses to humans by other investigators, it was decided not to continue...". They were being prudent, and I agree. At some high dosage this supplement could be dangerous if you were sick, maybe (never proven), but not how we use it. The study they reference is here, which again shows yet HIGHER doses to be used safetly. That reference is here if you care to look: Lancet. 1961 Apr 8;1:739-41.

1,000mg of arachidonic acid is not an absurdly high amount. We are working with what would still be considered "moderate" supplementation, although I admit for marketing purposes I often play it up a little (just definitions anyway). People that are on atkins type diets with heavy red meat consumption probably get close to this much AA already.


Patrick, you were on this forum last year telling everyone it wouldn't work. While I do invite you to study this very powerful fatty acid, I urge you not to jump to conslusions that are again easily disproven.


We are hoping to have clinical data on X-Factor to announce by the end of the year, and it will include all the necessary major health markers, including platelette aggregation values. We are doing this not because we feel its safety is unstudied - to the contrary, AA has seen more extensive study than the vast majority of supplements out there. We are doing this so everything can be presented in one very neat package.

If anyone wants to continue to speculate that is fine, but I urge you to take the same care you would speculating about your own products.

good luck

[pu12en12g]

We are hoping to have clinical data on X-Factor to announce by the end of the year, and it will include all the necessary major health markers, including platelette aggregation values. We are doing this not because we feel its safety is unstudied - to the contrary, AA has seen more extensive study than the vast majority of supplements out there. We are doing this so everything can be presented in one very neat package.

Sounds good to me.

PA is supposed to have some upcoming longer term studies on 6-OXO as well... should be interesting for you both.

[w_llewellyn]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

good luck

Thank you. Same to you and your study.

[No Brakes]

Wow, nice to see a pleasant, affirmative exchange between you 2.

[pu12en12g]

Originally Posted by No Brakes

Wow, nice to see a pleasant, affirmative exchange between you 2.

Give them 10 minutes...

J/K

[nni]

those "good lucks" were through gritted teeth me thinks

[dito]

Originally Posted by w_llewellyn

Thank you. Same to you and your study.

Group hug time??

[secondsight]

Originally Posted by No Brakes

Wow, nice to see a pleasant, affirmative exchange between you 2.

I'm sure the mood enhancing supplements are helping.

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

Give them 10 minutes...

J/K

there really is nowhere to go with this discussion until the results from Bill's clinical study are in

which could be as long as a year from now

[EricTheRed]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

there really is nowhere to go with this discussion until the results from Bill's clinical study are in

which could be as long as a year from now

what about your 6-oxo study Pat.?

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by EricTheRed

what about your 6-oxo study Pat.?

i think its done and they are crunching the numbers or something

[Kledz]

Originally Posted by laz

I totallly agree! I get the same questions at my gym and also cuz i used to work at F I T R X . C O M until they fired me. I totally recommend both brands because i use them myself!

I love FitRx for all the essentials... did you work in the warehouse or up front?

[UberPooper]

has anyone else noticed that this forum is turning into an advertising department for all the small name supp companies? you dont see ON or any other big names on here. Just the little guys who can't afford advertising. Not to mention, it's turning into a warzone among the supp companies. It's starting to aggravate me.

and dont tell me that its a good place for small companies to make a name. look at beverly intl.

[pump tech]

Originally Posted by pu12en12g

Give them 10 minutes...

J/K

haha yea tell me about it.....their escapades are generally pretty educational as well as entertaining nevertheless

[uhockey]

Originally Posted by UberPooper

has anyone else noticed that this forum is turning into an advertising department for all the small name supp companies? you dont see ON or any other big names on here. Just the little guys who can't afford advertising. Not to mention, it's turning into a warzone among the supp companies. It's starting to aggravate me.

and dont tell me that its a good place for small companies to make a name. look at beverly intl.

Could that possibly be because people like Bill and PA (as well as MAN, Avant, and DS) come up with innovative products that customers actually want feedback/information on before they consider using them? What would ON get on here to say "Our whey tastes awful, but hey, it's cheap!" I personally enjoy the opportunity to discuss science in an open forum with the guys who work behind the scene........it is like getting to talk with the chemists at Pfizer instead of the obnoxious reps with free pens that bring us pizza every friggin day.

The flame wars do get a tad overblown, but even they are often quite educational.

[laz]

Originally Posted by Kledz

I love FitRx for all the essentials... did you work in the warehouse or up front?

Up front. I was the initial retail kid! i was there when they started in a lil corner store and then i was there in the new location for about a year. I was 19 at that time but big indeed! They dont have a warehouse, just a lil room in back!

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by UberPooper

has anyone else noticed that this forum is turning into an advertising department for all the small name supp companies? you dont see ON or any other big names on here. Just the little guys who can't afford advertising.

It has been that way for a long time. I cannot name how many small companies got their start cuz of unregulated spamming on this board

I occasionally mention ergopharm products but i don't do it excessively. Still over 90% of my posts are non spam. As opposed to some others that do nothing but spam. And i think with the amount of effort i put into sharing my knowledge on all sorts of stuff gives me the right to mention new ergo products and stuff sometimes

With all that said, i have grown to accept this downside of the board and i just avoid all the threads that spam the newbie companies

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by uhockey

Could that possibly be because people like Bill and PA (as well as MAN, Avant, and DS) come up with innovative products that customers actually want feedback/information on before they consider using them? .

I don't think he was referring to ergo or molecular or avant when he was talking small companies. And DS does not really spam as far as i know. MAN may qualify to some extent, but their marketing and products are quality so it does not bug me

[Stuntdawg]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

I don't think he was referring to ergo or molecular or avant when he was talking small companies. And DS does not really spam as far as i know. MAN may qualify to some extent, but their marketing and products are quality so it does not bug me

Legal Gear used to spam to no end. But, even as their M1P has "hit the shelves" they've seemingly disappeared. Go figure.

[drewkowsky]

who said LG? EDIT: (ahh beat me to it Stuntdawg)

[warriors]

Originally Posted by Stuntdawg

Legal Gear used to spam to no end. But, even as their M1P has "hit the shelves" they've seemingly disappeared. Go figure.

Since u mentioned it i havent seen LG around in a while

[Patrick Arnold]

Originally Posted by Stuntdawg

Legal Gear used to spam to no end. But, even as their M1P has "hit the shelves" they've seemingly disappeared. Go figure.

Maybe cuz their M1P was so indefensible as a supplement that they did not want to show up here to have to take the heat

[Simon Keller]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

It has been that way for a long time. I cannot name how many small companies got their start cuz of unregulated spamming on this board

I occasionally mention ergopharm products but i don't do it excessively. Still over 90% of my posts are non spam. As opposed to some others that do nothing but spam. And i think with the amount of effort i put into sharing my knowledge on all sorts of stuff gives me the right to mention new ergo products and stuff sometimes

With all that said, i have grown to accept this downside of the board and i just avoid all the threads that spam the newbie companies

Every company that comes on here is somewhat advertising, they all have their websites posted in their sigs. Even you with your website and your forum listed. Do I mind, no because your products are solid (as are Bills, DS, etc.) and are sold here. So I would think its a win-win situation for both parties. Though, I still buy all my "stuff" from your buddy who runs really quick...

The only time it might upset me is if say a Muscle Marketing guy come on here with a signature linking to that amazing Creatine Serum of theirs...

[Stuntdawg]

Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold

Maybe cuz their M1P was so indefensible as a supplement that they did not want to show up here to have to take the heat

I have fond recollections of the LG Product-X debate of yore <cough, cough>.

[warriors]

Originally Posted by Simon Keller

Every company that comes on here is somewhat advertising, they all have their websites posted in their sigs. Even you with your website and your forum listed. Do I mind, no because your products are solid (as are Bills, DS, etc.) and are sold here. So I would think its a win-win situation for both parties. Though, I still buy all my "stuff" from your buddy who runs really quick...

The only time it might upset me is if say a Muscle Marketing guy come on here with a signature linking to that amazing Creatine Serum of theirs...

C'mon now we all know that creatine serum was the biggest breakthrough in the supplement industry

[Simon Keller]

Originally Posted by warriors

C'mon now we all know that creatine serum was the biggest breakthrough in the supplement industry

And yet it still sells...