gays in saudi arabia

[timbo81]

Queer Sheik
by John R. Bradley

http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040315&s=bradley031504


The glass and marble shopping malls of this cosmopolitan and comparatively laid-back Saudi city on the Red Sea have long served as a meeting place for Saudi boys and girls, who slip each other bits of paper with their names and mobile-phone numbers scribbled on them. After chatting by phone, some boys and girls meet up again in the family sections of the malls' many Western-style restaurants, where mingling of the sexes is allowed.

In recent months, however, Jeddah's malls have become meeting places for another group: homosexuals. Gay Saudi men now cruise certain malls and supermarkets, openly making passes at each other, and one street in Jeddah is said to have the most traffic accidents in the city because it is the most popular place for Saudi drivers to pick up gay Filipinos, who strut their stuff on the sidewalk in tight jeans and cut-off t-shirts. (Filipinos are one of the larger groups of foreign workers in Saudi Arabia.) Meanwhile, gay and lesbian discos, gay-friendly coffee shops, and even gayoriented Internet chat rooms are now flourishing in some Saudi cities; in the chat rooms, gay and lesbian Saudis discuss the best places to meet people for one-night stands. "We talk about places that aren't gay cruising areas, because they're now in the minority," says one young gay Saudi, only half-jokingly.







Traditionally, self-identified gays and lesbians who openly displayed their sexual preferences lived in mortal fear in Saudi Arabia. Homosexuality has long been illegal here, and, in theory, the official punishment for sodomy is death. In the 1990s, several gay Filipino foreign workers were deported from the kingdom for committing homosexual acts, and, in January 2002, the Saudi Interior Ministry reported that three men in the southern city of Abha had been "beheaded for homosexuality," although one Saudi diplomat said the men were executed for raping boys. Periodically, gay Westerners in the kingdom were fired from Saudi companies where they were working. One long-term expatriate says employers have told friends of his, "You have twenty-four hours to leave the kingdom, or we'll inform the authorities of your behavior."

But, in some Saudi cities, the authorities have started to look the other way. In part, the government has realized that the thousands of Saudis who have recently returned from the United States because of stricter visa policies, and who are relatively liberal-minded, are unwilling to countenance such harsh anti-gay policies. "I don't feel oppressed at all," said one gay man, a 23-year-old returnee from the United States meeting in one of the coffee shops with a group of gay Saudi friends dressed in Western clothes and speaking fluent English.

Saudi Arabia's domestic reform initiative and the government's eagerness to shed its international reputation for intolerance also have contributed to acceptance of gays and lesbians. In recent months, Crown Prince Abdullah, the kingdom's de facto ruler, has called for greater intrasocietal debate and more freedom of expression in the press. Consequently, previously taboo subjects are discussed more openly in Saudi society, and some Saudis have begun to question the harsh tactics of the fearsome religious police, who enforce public morals. Slightly freer to cover gay and lesbian issues, the Jeddah-based daily newspaper Okaz recently reported that lesbianism was "endemic" among schoolgirls, in an article that revealed salacious details of lesbian sex in school bathrooms. Despite the Okaz report, Ibrahim bin Abdullah bin Ghaith, head of the religious police, told reporters he would not send enforcers to investigate schools for lesbians--perhaps because of pressure from higher officials. Riyadh even seems to have informed some of its officials to show tolerance when they comment on homosexuality. Ibrahim bin Abdullah bin Ghaith recently acknowledged, in unusually tempered language, that there are gay Saudis. What's more, the kingdom's Internet Services Unit, which is responsible for blocking sites deemed "un-Islamic" or politically sensitive, recently unblocked access to one website's homepage for gay Saudi surfers after being bombarded with critical e-mails from the United States. Saudi Arabia seemed concerned about the bad publicity blocking the site would bring, said A. S. Getenio, manager of GayMiddleEast.com, a website devoted to homosexual issues in the Arab world.

To be sure, Saudi Arabia is still a closed society, but times seem to have changed a bit. According to several gay Saudis, the number of gay-themed Saudi websites has exploded in recent months. Some of these sites are still blocked, but software to avoid the blocks is easily purchased in local markets. Most sites exist for one reason only: to facilitate meet-ups. One night, I sat with a 32-year-old gay Saudi, who spent the evening chatting online with other men. Half an hour after interacting online with a younger man he liked, the older man sped off in his car for a meet-up in person. The following day, he told me the younger man had spent the night in his apartment. Younger gays pair off at school. Ahmed, a university student in Jeddah, says that no one made fun of him for having a boyfriend at his private high school. He adds that he now has a "special friend" in college, too. "We introduce our boys to our friends as 'al walid hagi' [the boy who belongs to me]," he says. "At the beginning of term, we always check out the new boys to see which are the most 'helu' [sweet] and think of ways to get to know them."

The Jeddah gay community also frequents malls, supermarkets, restaurants, and a disco catering to gay men, whose existence is an open secret. One Jeddah restaurant now features young Filipinos plastered in makeup and obviously taking hormones, possibly in preparation for a sex-change operation. At a disco north of Jeddah city, gay men gather each week to drink beer (which is also officially prohibited), dance together to Western music, and introduce their partners to friends. Many of the disco-goers are young returnees from the United States, but there are also older Saudi businessmen who have lived in the kingdom for years. One evening, the disco even featured two Saudi drag queens, who made a dramatic entrance onto the floor. Without an official complaint from the government or from Saudi citizens, the religious police will not raid the disco.



The upper crust of Saudi society is becoming more open as well. Carmen bin Laden, the sister-in-law of Osama bin Laden, recently published a book, in French, titled Inside the Kingdom, which is a look at the life of the idle Saudi rich. In the book, The New York Times reported this month, bin Laden tells stories of homosexual affairs among the kingdom's wealthy and idle women. And Saudi anthropologist Mai Yamani has shown that all-female discos catering to rich Saudi women are often covers for lesbian get-togethers. Saudi princes, meanwhile, have frequented the Jeddah disco, where they openly interact with club-goers.

Even the cutting edge of foreign gay culture is hitting Saudi shores and showing the limits of Saudi gays' freedoms. Last week, U.S.-based Saudi dissidents reported, the Saudi authorities raided a house in the city of Medina and arrested dozens of gay men. Apparently, the men had gathered to witness the wedding of a Saudi man and his Sudanese partner.

John R. Bradley is the author of the forthcoming Saudi Arabia Exposed: Princes, Paupers and Puritans in the Wahhabi Kingdom.



any islamists view on this, authorities turning a blind eye it seems

[okasha]

They are not really turning a blind eye.

They are just not agressively persuing it.

If anyone commited the gay in public they would receive punishment.

[timbo81]

Originally Posted by okasha

They are not really turning a blind eye.

They are just not agressively persuing it.

which is kinda the same thing.

obviously they're aware of it but not doing anything

[okasha]

Originally Posted by timbo81

which is kinda the same thing.

obviously they're aware of it but not doing anything

It depends though, they can get in trouble for accusing someone without 100% proof.

[Fifth Column]

Originally Posted by timbo81

which is kinda the same thing.

obviously they're aware of it but not doing anything

Do you wish they would do something?

[okasha]

Originally Posted by Fifth Column

Do you wish they would do something?

The reason they dont do anything is because some of these gays frequenting the "discos" are royal princes.

So they could open up a whole new can of worms by going after them.

Saudi is corrupt.

[Thinman]

Sounds like Saudi Arabia is evolving. Maybe there is hope for them yet.

[eazy_mas]

Originally Posted by okasha

They are not really turning a blind eye.

They are just not agressively persuing it.

If anyone commited the gay in public they would receive punishment.

Abu al-Furku wa al-Waraan

ابو فرخ و الورعان

[TwiloMike]

Originally Posted by okasha

The reason they dont do anything is because some of these gays frequenting the "discos" are royal princes.

So they could open up a whole new can of worms by going after them.

Saudi is corrupt.

Haha... so they're kinda like the republican politicians, then?

[Fifth Column]

Originally Posted by okasha

The reason they dont do anything is because some of these gays frequenting the "discos" are royal princes.

So they could open up a whole new can of worms by going after them.

Saudi is corrupt.

That wasn't what I asked, was it?

[SYRIANKID]

An Islamic government reserves the right to scourge any males acting effeminately. Otherwise, the stoning of homosexuals can only occur when there is proof of homosexual intercourse taking place. Otherwise, physical discipline can be taken for lesser infractions - including hormonal therapy.

[Fifth Column]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

An Islamic government reserves the right to scourge any males acting effeminately. Otherwise, the stoning of homosexuals can only occur when there is proof of homosexual intercourse taking place. Otherwise, physical discipline can be taken for lesser infractions - including hormonal therapy.

Wow, strong neanderthalism.

[SYRIANKID]

Originally Posted by Fifth Column

Wow, strong neanderthalism.

Call it whatever you like. We won't be dealing with issues of homosexual rights or marriage any time soon. In fact, we'd love to export any homosexuals we have to your civilized nations so they can enjoy the upcoming parades you're hosting. Let us know.

[Leper Messiah]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Call it whatever you like. We won't be dealing with issues of homosexual rights or marriage any time soon. In fact, we'd love to export any homosexuals we have to your civilized nations so they can enjoy the upcoming parades you're hosting. Let us know.

high 5

[CerealKiller]

Originally Posted by okasha

They are not really turning a blind eye.

They are just not agressively persuing it.

If anyone commited the gay in public they would receive punishment.

What's the punishment for wide-stance urination?

[Fifth Column]

Originally Posted by SYRIANKID

Call it whatever you like. We won't be dealing with issues of homosexual rights or marriage any time soon. In fact, we'd love to export any homosexuals we have to your civilized nations so they can enjoy the upcoming parades you're hosting. Let us know.

I'm sure you would. Can't have a society where people tolerate those who are different, can we? Wouldn't want people to actually be free to make their own choices on how they live, would we? Imagine the horror.

[Fifth Column]

So, Timbo, you still haven't explained what exactly you were inferring by posting this article. I take it you feel that the Saudi government should be doing more to enforce their homosexuality laws? Yes or no.

Don't chicken out like you did in the abortion thread.

[timbo81]

Originally Posted by Fifth Column

So, Timbo, you still haven't explained what exactly you were inferring by posting this article. I take it you feel that the Saudi government should be doing more to enforce their homosexuality laws? Yes or no.

Don't chicken out like you did in the abortion thread.

It doesn't really concern me greatly as i'm not islamic, nor living in saudi arabia nor gay.

I wouldn't be losing sleep if they enforced it more severely though, I think keeping society moral is a good thing

I'm not sure what abortion thread you are talking about

[Fifth Column]

Originally Posted by timbo81

It doesn't really concern me greatly as i'm not islamic, nor living in saudi arabia nor gay.

Then why did you even bring up the article by making this thread? Nice to see you're fine with others being oppressed as long as you don't happen to fall into the category.

Originally Posted by timbo81

I wouldn't be losing sleep if they enforced it more severely though, I think keeping society moral is a good thing

I thought you were a Christian. You say you condone killing people who commit immoral acts, yet according to the ten commandments killing someone is in itself an immoral act. So how does committing an immoral act in order to to punish an immoral act keep society moral?

Originally Posted by timbo81

I'm not sure what abortion thread you are talking about

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=143

A week later and I'm still hearing tumbleweeds go by.

[CerealKiller]

Originally Posted by Fifth Column

I thought you were a Christian. You say you condone killing people who commit immoral acts, yet according to the ten commandments killing someone is in itself an immoral act. So how does committing an immoral act in order to to punish an immoral act keep society moral?

Tumbleweed goes by.

[timbo81]

Originally Posted by Fifth Column

Then why did you even bring up the article by making this thread? Nice to see you're fine with others being oppressed as long as you don't happen to fall into the category.

i'm just reporting a news article, calm down no need to shoot the messenger, these are facts going on, or should I just bury it and put my head in the sand.

I thought you were a Christian. You say you condone killing people who commit immoral acts, yet according to the ten commandments killing someone is in itself an immoral act. So how does committing an immoral act in order to to punish an immoral act keep society moral?

You don't seem to grasp the concept of administering law. There's a difference between murdering someone outside the law and executing someone for a crime they've commited under the law.

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showpo...&postcount=143

A week later and I'm still hearing tumbleweeds go by.

I don't have a problem with the morning after pill as nothing has been conceived yet.

Though if she finds out a few weeks/months later then I disagree with killing the child as it is innocent and shouldn't be punished. I met an interesting lady once who was the product of a rape, so I'm sure she was glad she wasn't terminated thoguh she was given up for adoption which is fine.