Big Cat's "Sane Cycle"

[balookis]

I have a few questions for the experienced guys here. I'm not a kid, I'm not a cop and I'm not an idiot...just new to steroids. I'm 36, 6'1", 210 lbs., around 12% BF. I'm in good shape, but I feel I may have hit a wall and at my age it isn't as easy to break through...the test just isn't what it used to be...so I am ready give the juice a try. I have been buying my supplements from BB.com for a while now and have posted a few times on the other boards, but this is my first time on the steroid forum. I'll try not to break any rules and ruffle any feathers.

1. I have read the FAQ and steroid profiles here, among a few of the other stickies. It appears that Big Cat is a knowledgeable and well respected expert in these matters and it would seem silly for a novice not to heed the advice of someone like that. I don't know if he is still around here or not, but anyway...after lurking here a bit and reading a great deal it seems to me that the "Sane Cycle" he posted is a solid and reasonably safe cycle to run, even for a first timer. Have any of you guys run this cycle exactly the way he posted it and how did you like it? Would the rest of you recommend that cycle for a first timer?

2. I know it is against the rules to ask for a source on these boards...and understandably so...so I'm not asking. What I am asking is this: how does someone who has never used steroids and doesn't know anyone who has ever used steroids even begin? I live in a small town and lift at the local YMCA. The gym is full of old folks, women, fat dudes on treadmills and a few high school kids who think Cell-Tech is the best thing going. I am the closest thing to a bodybuilder we have...and that ain't sayin' much. Anyone who can at least give a little advice on how to begin a search for my own source, feel free to PM me. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by asking that, but a guy has to start somewhere.

Thanks for any responses...

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by balookis

I have a few questions for the experienced guys here. I'm not a kid, I'm not a cop and I'm not an idiot...just new to steroids. I'm 36, 6'1", 210 lbs., around 12% BF. I'm in good shape, but I feel I may have hit a wall and at my age it isn't as easy to break through...the test just isn't what it used to be...so I am ready give the juice a try. I have been buying my supplements from BB.com for a while now and have posted a few times on the other boards, but this is my first time on the steroid forum. I'll try not to break any rules and ruffle any feathers.

1. I have read the FAQ and steroid profiles here, among a few of the other stickies. It appears that Big Cat is a knowledgeable and well respected expert in these matters and it would seem silly for a novice not to heed the advice of someone like that. I don't know if he is still around here or not, but anyway...after lurking here a bit and reading a great deal it seems to me that the "Sane Cycle" he posted is a solid and reasonably safe cycle to run, even for a first timer. Have any of you guys run this cycle exactly the way he posted it and how did you like it? Would the rest of you recommend that cycle for a first timer?

2. I know it is against the rules to ask for a source on these boards...and understandably so...so I'm not asking. What I am asking is this: how does someone who has never used steroids and doesn't know anyone who has ever used steroids even begin? I live in a small town and lift at the local YMCA. The gym is full of old folks, women, fat dudes on treadmills and a few high school kids who think Cell-Tech is the best thing going. I am the closest thing to a bodybuilder we have...and that ain't sayin' much. Anyone who can at least give a little advice on how to begin a search for my own source, feel free to PM me. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by asking that, but a guy has to start somewhere.

Thanks for any responses...

Glad to see a serious post here man. Welcome to BB.com, for a first timer you should be doing 400-500mg of Testosterone, you can either use Proprinate(Short ester) or Enanthate(Long Ester). Read about esters a bit before trying. At your age I and some may not, suggest tapering to 150mg a week(Pref enanathate for this) after the cycle and run HRT for life. If I remember correctly your 38. There are people 10, 20 years younger on for life so for you its not as big as a risk then say someone my age. Remeber keep it simple at first.

Read these links, it will help a nice amount.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3174271

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...stosterone.htm

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/index.htm

[ShortMonster]

*Taken from ScrillaKeith on HCA*
Drug Interactions

It didn't occur to me that there were no threads on this subject until spring rolled around and I had hop on the Claritin again. But a lot of research chems and PCT products have interactions with prescription meds and OTC products (even cold/sinus medicines).

Anastrozole (Arimidex)
Tamoxifen
Tamoxifen- may speed up how quickly your liver processes Arimidex, decreasing the beneficial effects.
Learn more: http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4363...G&pagenumber=9

Aromasin (Exemstane)
May have interactions with tamoxifen, estrogens (e.g., ethinyl estradiol, conjugated estrogens), rifampin, phenytoin, carbamazepine, phenobarbital, St John's wort.



Bromocriptine (Parlodel)
Combining alcohol with Parlodel can cause blurred vision, chest pain, pounding heartbeat, throbbing headache, confusion, and other problems. Do not drink alcoholic beverages while taking Parlodel.

Certain drugs used for psychotic conditions, including Thorazine and Haldol, inhibit the action of Parlodel.
Other drugs that may interact with Parlodel include:
Blood pressure-lowering drugs such as Aldomet and Catapres
Metoclopramide (Reglan)
Oral contraceptives
Other ergot derivatives such as Hydergine
Pimozide (Orap)
Products containing pseudoephedrine (may increase risk of toxic side-effects)[http://www.rxlist.com/script/main/sr...seudoephedrine for list of products containing pseudoephedrine)

Serious interactions may occur when combining bromo with: ergot alkaloids (e.g., ergonovine), "triptans" (e.g., sumatriptan, frovatriptan).

Drugs that cause drowsiness can increase the drowsiness caused by bromo:
drugs that cause drowsiness such as:
certain antihistamines (e.g., diphenhydramine), anti-seizure drugs (e.g., phenytoin), medicine for sleep or anxiety (e.g., alprazolam, diazepam, zolpidem), muscle relaxants, narcotic pain relievers (e.g., codeine), psychiatric medicines (e.g., chlorpromazine, risperidone, nortriptyline, trazodone).


Cabergoline (Dostinex)
This drug should not be used with the following medications because very serious interactions may occur: certain medications for mental/mood disorders (e.g., phenothiazines such as chlorpromazine and promethazine, butyrophenones such as haloperidol, thioxanthenes such as thiothixene and chlorprothixene), metoclopramide.


Clenbuterol
The effect of Clenbuterol may be decreased and the bronchodilaing effect may even disappear during combined therapy with betaadrenergic blockers. Simultaneous administartion of Clenbuterol with cardiac glucosides provokes disturbances of the cardiac rhythm and increases their toxicity. Rhythmic disturbances are also observed after combined therapy with MAO-inhibitors and theophylline. Clenbuterol weakens the effects of insulin and sulfanylurea antidiabetic drug. Clenbuterol and sympatomimetics potentiate mutually their toxicity.

Clomiphene Citrate (Clomid)
Drug interactions with clomiphene citrate tablets USP have not been documented.

Ephedrine
While no specific interactions (positive or negative) between the herb ephedra and conventional medications have been reported in the literature, the active ingredients of ephedra, ephedrine and pseudoephedrine (available in a number of over-the-counter and prescription products for weight loss or nasal congestion), have been associated with several serious drug interactions. We may assume, for safety's sake, that those drugs that interact with ephedra's active ingredients may also interact with the herb ephedra. Medications for which there are well-documented interactions with ephedra's active ingredients include:

Amphetamine and Amphetamine derivatives (such as dextroamphetamine sometimes used for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and narcolepsy)
Antidepressants ; namely, those in the class of tricyclics (such as clomipramine, desipramine, doxepin, imipramine, and nortriptyline) and monoamine oxidase inhibitors (MAOIs, including phenelzine and trancylcypromine)
Aspirin
Blood Pressure Medications , particularly clonidine
Caffeine and Guarana (a caffeine-containing herb)
Narcotics , such as morphine and codeine, prescribed for pain; codeine may also be prescribed for cough
Phenylpropanolamine (also known as norephedrine, found in certain supplements); formerly in many over the counter and prescription remedies for cough and cold; was removed from the market by the FDA because of risk of bleeding stroke. Norephedrine found in certain dietary supplements for weight loss can cause liver damage.
Theophylline (used for asthma)


Letrozole (Femara)
Letrozole or Femara affects hormonal levels and any drug that also affects hormonal levels can complicate the therapy.
Tamoxifen- may speed up how quickly your liver processes letro, decreasing the beneficial effects.
Learn more: http://www.webmd.com/drugs/drug-4363...G&pagenumber=9

Raloxifene (Evista)
Although certain medicines should not be used together at all, in other cases two different medicines may be used together even if an interaction might occur. In these cases, your doctor may want to change the dose, or other precautions may be necessary. When you are taking raloxifene, it is especially important that your health care professional know if you are taking any of the following:

Cholestyramine (e.g., Questran)?Cholestyramine can significantly reduce the absorption of raloxifene
Estrogens, injection (e.g., Premarin) or
Estrogens, oral (e.g., Premarin, Estrace, Estratab) or
Estrogens, transdermal (e.g., Climara, Estrace, Vivelle)?Raloxifene should not be used with estrogens
Warfarin (e.g., Coumadin)?Raloxifene may decrease the effect of warfarin, and the dose of warfarin may need to be adjusted when adding or stopping raloxifene



Selegiline (Emsam)
This drug should not be used with the following medications because very serious (possibly fatal) interactions may occur: other antidepressants (e.g., TCAs such as amitriptyline/nortriptyline, nefazodone, SSRIs such as citalopram/fluoxetine/paroxetine, duloxetine, mirtazapine, venlafaxine), appetite suppressants (e.g., diethylpropion, sibutramine), drugs for attention deficit disorder (e.g., atomoxetine, methylphenidate), certain antihistamines (e.g., azatadine), bronchodilators (e.g., albuterol, salmeterol), bupropion, buspirone, carbamazepine, oxcarbazepine, cyclobenzaprine, dextromethorphan, certain drugs for glaucoma (e.g., apraclonidine, brimonidine), certain drugs for high blood pressure (e.g., guanethidine, methyldopa), certain narcotic medications (e.g., meperidine, methadone, propoxyphene), nasal decongestants (e.g., pseudoephedrine, phenylephrine, phenylpropanolamine, ephedrine), certain drugs for Parkinson's disease (e.g., entacapone, levodopa, oral selegiline, tolcapone), St John's wort, street drugs (e.g., MDMA/"ecstasy", LSD, mescaline), stimulants (e.g., amphetamines, cocaine, dopamine, epinephrine, phenylalanine), "triptan" migraine drugs (e.g., sumatriptan, rizatriptan), tramadol, tyrosine, tryptophan.

Tell your doctor or pharmacist if you also take drugs that cause drowsiness such as: certain antihistamines (e.g., diphenhydramine), anti-seizure drugs (e.g., phenytoin), medicine for sleep or anxiety (e.g., alprazolam, diazepam, zolpidem), muscle relaxants, narcotic pain relievers (e.g., codeine, fentanyl), psychiatric medicines (e.g., chlorpromazine, lithium, risperidone, trazodone).

Check the labels on all your medicines (e.g., allergy medications, cough-and-cold products, decongestants, diet pills) because they may contain dextromethorphan, decongestants, stimulants, or drowsiness-causing ingredients. Ask your pharmacist about the safe use of those products.

It is very important that you follow special dietary restrictions in order to limit the amount of tyramine in your diet. Avoid drinking large amounts of beverages containing caffeine (coffee, tea, colas) or eating large amounts of chocolate. Caffeine can increase the side effects of this medication. Foods and beverages high in tyramine should be avoided while you are taking this medication and for at least 2 weeks after you stop using this medication.

Foods high in tyramine include: aged cheeses (cheddar, camembert, emmenthaler, brie, stilton blue, gruyere, gouda, brick, bleu, roquefort, boursault, parmesan, romano, provolone, liederdranz, colby, edam), aged/dried/fermented/salted/smoked/pickled/processed meats and fish (includes bacon, summer sausage, liverwurst, hot dogs, corned beef, pepperoni, salami, bologna, ham, mortadella, pickled or dried herring), banana peel, beef/chicken liver (stored, not fresh), bouillon cubes, commercial gravies, concentrated yeast extracts, fava beans, Italian green beans, broad beans, fermented bean curd, homemade yeast-leavened bread, kim chee (Korean fermented cabbage), orange pulp, overripe or spoiled fruits, packaged soups, red wine, sauerkraut, sherry, snow pea pods, sourdough bread, soy sauce, soybeans, soybean paste/miso, tofu, tap beer and ale, vermouth.

Moderate-to-low tyramine content foods include: alcohol-free beer, avocados, bananas, bottled beer and ale, chocolate and products made with chocolate, coffee, cola, cultured dairy products (e.g. buttermilk, yogurt, sour cream), distilled spirits, eggplant, canned figs, fish roe (caviar), green bean pods, pate, peanuts, port wine, raisins, raspberries, red plums, spinach, tomatoes, white

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)
If Nolvadex is taken with certain other drugs, the effects of either could be increased, decreased, or altered. It is especially important to check with your doctor before combining Nolvadex with the following:

Aminoglutethimide (Cytadren)
Blood-thinning drugs such as Coumadin
Bromocriptine (Parlodel)
Cancer drugs such as Cytoxan
Letrozole (Femara)
Phenobarbital
Rifampin (Rifadin)

[hoorah66]

Should run a nice cycle of this for 12 weeks.

Sustanon 250(500mg EW, taken on Sunday and Wednesday)
Deca(200mg a EW)
D-bol(30mg a day, spreaded through out the day for week 1-5 only)
Arimidex(0.25mg ED) come off Adex slowly though.

And for PCT

Nolva / Clomid / HCG for 4 weeks.

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

Should run a nice cycle of this for 12 weeks.

Sustanon 250(500mg EW, taken on Sunday and Wednesday)
Deca(200mg a EW)
D-bol(30mg a day, spreaded through out the day for week 1-5 only)
Arimidex(0.25mg ED) come off Adex slowly though.

And for PCT

Nolva / Clomid / HCG for 4 weeks.

Thats my next cylce lol. IMHO if he doesnt know much about steroids to beggin with I think that will be to much for him. He might not need adex, ide just stick with the test only or with a dbol kick start at a low dose. And HCG SHOULD NOT be used durring PCT, it supressed your natural test because HCG mimics the LH, should be run durring or a month before IMO. I have seen others(My VET friend does it the way you suggested, but he never knew about the suppression). Just my 0.2c

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Thats my next cylce lol. IMHO if he doesnt know much about steroids to beggin with I think that will be to much for him. He might not need adex, ide just stick with the test only or with a dbol kick start at a low dose. And HCG SHOULD NOT be used durring PCT, it supressed your natural test because HCG mimics the LH, should be run durring or a month before IMO. I have seen others(My VET friend does it the way you suggested, but he never knew about the suppression). Just my 0.2c

You sure? It's the fastest way to bring test back up and I never knew much about it until I saw a full write up on it and PCT in the book of anabolics 2007 bla bla and they were raving about it. Hmm he should be ok on it, or he can do Enth 500mg a week, the same deca / dbol and adex.

I personally I run an AI or an AP or both depending on the circumstances with everything as I prefer solid lean gains and no more Estro.

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

You sure? It's the fastest way to bring test back up and I never knew much about it until I saw a full write up on it and PCT in the book of anabolics 2007 bla bla and they were raving about it. Hmm he should be ok on it, or he can do Enth 500mg a week, the same deca / dbol and adex.

I personally I run an AI or an AP or both depending on the circumstances with everything as I prefer solid lean gains and no more Estro.

Im 100% positive on HCG supressing you natural test. He should be fine yea, but FOR ME ide rather run some nolva after to make sure, the higher dose of HCG you use the your estrogen raises, that is one reason I suggest 500IUs throughout(This is from my own research and have not tried throughout, doing HCG at 1500IUs(taper down) for 3 weeks for PCT while on HRT at the moment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus
A single injection of 75 IU of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) into adult male rats caused a dramatic reduction in the concentration of membrane receptors for luteinizing hormone (LH) in the testis. The mean receptor level reached a nadir which was 5--10% of that in the control testes, 3 days after the injection, after which it gradually returned toward normal. This cannot be due to increased competition caused by the injected hCG since no decrease was observed at a time when the circulating levels of hCG were at a maximum (2--24 h after injection). Furthermore, at a time when receptor levels had been maximally reduced, circulating hCG was at or below the level of detection. Reduction in the number of LH binding sites in the testis was associated with a decreased responsiveness of the testicular tissue to hCG as measured by hCG-stimulated testosterone production in vitro. This inhibitory effect of large quantities of LH on its own receptor is suggested as a possible explantation for the previously observed low concentrations of LH receptor in the testis of the testicular feminized male (tfm) rat. This syndrome is characterized by high endogenous levels of plasma LH (Sherins et al., 1971).

[PUMP2356]

Originally Posted by balookis

I have a few questions for the experienced guys here. I'm not a kid, I'm not a cop and I'm not an idiot...just new to steroids. I'm 36, 6'1", 210 lbs., around 12% BF. I'm in good shape, but I feel I may have hit a wall and at my age it isn't as easy to break through...the test just isn't what it used to be...so I am ready give the juice a try. I have been buying my supplements from BB.com for a while now and have posted a few times on the other boards, but this is my first time on the steroid forum. I'll try not to break any rules and ruffle any feathers.

1. I have read the FAQ and steroid profiles here, among a few of the other stickies. It appears that Big Cat is a knowledgeable and well respected expert in these matters and it would seem silly for a novice not to heed the advice of someone like that. I don't know if he is still around here or not, but anyway...after lurking here a bit and reading a great deal it seems to me that the "Sane Cycle" he posted is a solid and reasonably safe cycle to run, even for a first timer. Have any of you guys run this cycle exactly the way he posted it and how did you like it? Would the rest of you recommend that cycle for a first timer?

2. I know it is against the rules to ask for a source on these boards...and understandably so...so I'm not asking. What I am asking is this: how does someone who has never used steroids and doesn't know anyone who has ever used steroids even begin? I live in a small town and lift at the local YMCA. The gym is full of old folks, women, fat dudes on treadmills and a few high school kids who think Cell-Tech is the best thing going. I am the closest thing to a bodybuilder we have...and that ain't sayin' much. Anyone who can at least give a little advice on how to begin a search for my own source, feel free to PM me. I hope I'm not breaking any rules by asking that, but a guy has to start somewhere.

Thanks for any responses...

To get anabolics go see your doctor for Testosterone replacement therapy along with Human growth Hormorne, those two sure will kick the wall down. You do realize steroids are illegal in most of the USA so might as well do it legally .

P.S. Go to a better gym, YMCA's don't even have a squat rack!!

[balookis]

Thanks for the replies, guys. Some good info. there, ShortMonster. I am a little curious about the HCG thing myself. Differing opinions, obviously. Big Cat mentioned in his post not to run it too long. Do most guys use this after a cycle?

The YMCA here does have a power rack so I am able to do squats, by the way. There are a couple of newer gyms in town...one that just opened with brand new, top of the line equipment. I may switch eventually, but right now I am comfortable where I am. Nothing fancy, but enough bars, plates and dumbells to get a solid workout...and no dickheads trying to be tough guys. Big plus in my book.

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by balookis

Thanks for the replies, guys. Some good info. there, ShortMonster. I am a little curious about the HCG thing myself. Differing opinions, obviously. Big Cat mentioned in his post not to run it too long. Do most guys use this after a cycle?

The YMCA here does have a power rack so I am able to do squats, by the way. There are a couple of newer gyms in town...one that just opened with brand new, top of the line equipment. I may switch eventually, but right now I am comfortable where I am. Nothing fancy, but enough bars, plates and dumbells to get a solid workout...and no dickheads trying to be tough guys. Big plus in my book.

If you looking to do a cycle you dont need HCG(Unless you do deca) For a first just do Test and Dbol IMO. It supresses you to a point and doesnt shut you down as say Test and Tren. No need for HCG for that cycle, so durring the cycle read up as much as you can about out. Get extra nolva and buy some adex or letro if gyno occurs. Nizrol 2% is for hair loss having to do with DHT receptors in the scalp(Use search button) Everything you need to know is on this forum basically. Do you do deadlifts, over-head squats, cleans? Also Big Cats profiles are outdated, very good place to start to read though, everything just falls into place evenutally(still figuring tons of things out myself)

[smc]

Using HCG at 100iu ED or 250iu-500iu twice a week is all that should be used.

If you start right away, lower doses is all that is needed. When you wait too long you'll need the higher doses. (Remember that too much HCG will turn you primary hypogonadal!)

[LOHLOH]

Sounds like we're in the same boat, heck it sounds like we go to the same Y.
I'm getting ready to start my first cycle I'll be running Test E @ 400 mg/week for 11 weeks and Nolvadex starting 2 weeks after last dose of Test E for 4 weeks @ 40/40/20/20.

[LOHLOH]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Glad to see a serious post here man. Welcome to BB.com, for a first timer you should be doing 400-500mg of Testosterone, you can either use Proprinate(Short ester) or Enanthate(Long Ester). Read about esters a bit before trying. At your age I and some may not, suggest tapering to 150mg a week(Pref enanathate for this) after the cycle and run HRT for life. If I remember correctly your 38. There are people 10, 20 years younger on for life so for you its not as big as a risk then say someone my age. Remeber keep it simple at first.

Read these links, it will help a nice amount.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3174271

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...stosterone.htm

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/index.htm

Is HRT hormone replacement therapy? This is the first time I've heard anyone say something about running something for life after a Test cycle.

[bubba289]

Originally Posted by LOHLOH

Is HRT hormone replacement therapy?

yup...

[lee_fitness]

Originally Posted by LOHLOH

Is HRT hormone replacement therapy? This is the first time I've heard anyone say something about running something for life after a Test cycle.

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Glad to see a serious post here man. Welcome to BB.com, for a first timer you should be doing 400-500mg of Testosterone, you can either use Proprinate(Short ester) or Enanthate(Long Ester). Read about esters a bit before trying. At your age I and some may not, suggest tapering to 150mg a week(Pref enanathate for this) after the cycle and run HRT for life. If I remember correctly your 38. There are people 10, 20 years younger on for life so for you its not as big as a risk then say someone my age. Remeber keep it simple at first.

Read these links, it will help a nice amount.
http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=3174271

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/steroid...stosterone.htm

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/index.htm

Why do you say to run HRT for life, I cant find anything to confirm this.

DO YOU HAVE A SIMPLE WAY OF EXPLAINING THIS? (running HRT for life)

By the way Great info never the less. Repped.

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

If you looking to do a cycle you dont need HCG(Unless you do deca) For a first just do Test and Dbol IMO. It supresses you to a point and doesnt shut you down as say Test and Tren. No need for HCG for that cycle, so durring the cycle read up as much as you can about out. Get extra nolva and buy some adex or letro if gyno occurs. Nizrol 2% is for hair loss having to do with DHT receptors in the scalp(Use search button) Everything you need to know is on this forum basically. Do you do deadlifts, over-head squats, cleans? Also Big Cats profiles are outdated, very good place to start to read though, everything just falls into place evenutally(still figuring tons of things out myself)

Can't run Test or Winny with no Deca, Primo or EQ you silly fool

[LOHLOH]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

Can't run Test or Winny with no Deca, Primo or EQ you silly fool

Can't run Test with no Deca? HUH?

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by LOHLOH

Can't run Test with no Deca? HUH?

Not unless you want to risk injury?s, and have the collagen synthesis of an old man. Some people maybe willing to risk it, but if you injure something esp on a cycle it?s a ****in pain in the ass.

[LOHLOH]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

Not unless you want to risk injury?s, and have the collagen synthesis of an old man. Some people maybe willing to risk it, but if you injure something esp on a cycle it?s a ****in pain in the ass.

OK gotcha', I was just asking because most say just Test for first cycle is fine. Thank you for the input.

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by LOHLOH

OK gotcha', I was just asking because most say just Test for first cycle is fine. Thank you for the input.

Take a look here - http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4097033

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by LOHLOH

OK gotcha', I was just asking because most say just Test for first cycle is fine. Thank you for the input.

Hes right on the collagen part, if you keep your dose at 150-200mg your collagen will be fine. Growth hormone brings it up. IMO youll be okay at your age without any deca, but as you can tell other people dont agree. My father is 51 and he did test only for a while and is fine, so if he can do it im sure youll be fine.

[MUSCULARMAYOR]

also deca only helps your joints while on, after you stop the deca your joints could potentially start to hurt pretty good from all the increased strength. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[LOHLOH]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Hes right on the collagen part, if you keep your dose at 150-200mg your collagen will be fine. Growth hormone brings it up. IMO youll be okay at your age without any deca, but as you can tell other people dont agree. My father is 51 and he did test only for a while and is fine, so if he can do it im sure youll be fine.

Thanks, I agree. I'm going to try Test E @ 400 and see how it goes. But definitely good to know.

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by MUSCULARMAYOR

also deca only helps your joints while on, after you stop the deca your joints could potentially start to hurt pretty good from all the increased strength. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Deca increases Collagen Synthesis and creates fluid in the joints, so its a win imo.

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Hes right on the collagen part, if you keep your dose at 150-200mg your collagen will be fine. Growth hormone brings it up. IMO youll be okay at your age without any deca, but as you can tell other people dont agree. My father is 51 and he did test only for a while and is fine, so if he can do it im sure youll be fine.

My dads the same age or slightly older, he could hardly lift if it wasn't for Deca. I think he tore his shoulder and the only way for permanent fix is surgery which he won't have. But he also runs EQ with his Test also so he should have pretty high collagen synthesis :P

But it's really down to personal preference and with my arm I’m one of those guys that like to get every benefit out of a cycle.

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

Deca increases Collagen Synthesis and creates fluid in the joints, so its a win imo.

My dads the same age or slightly older, he could hardly lift if it wasn't for Deca. I think he tore his shoulder and the only way for permanent fix is surgery which he won't have. But he also runs EQ with his Test also so he should have pretty high collagen synthesis :P

But it's really down to personal preference and with my arm I?m one of those guys that like to get every benefit out of a cycle.

Im sorry to hear about that man, I hope he gets it all figured out..Im with you on the personal pref. Like said honestly he'll do fine with a test only at 400mg.

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

Im sorry to hear about that man, I hope he gets it all figured out..Im with you on the personal pref. Like said honestly he'll do fine with a test only at 400mg.

**** his shoulder it's been like it for years, i'm more irrated about my muscle tore / sprain lol :P

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

**** his shoulder it's been like it for years, i'm more irrated about my muscle tore / sprain lol :P

LMAO, good son you are, nah im kidding, put your self first always IMO, no matter who it is(Unless if its my dog Phil ).

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

LMAO, good son you are, nah im kidding, put your self first always IMO, no matter who it is(Unless if its my dog Phil ).

My dad is the last one to worry about for me lol, hes a royal pain in the ass.

[ShortMonster]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

My dad is the last one to worry about for me lol, hes a royal pain in the ass.

A little OT but okay then, lol Howd you get that torn muscle?

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by ShortMonster

A little OT but okay then, lol Howd you get that torn muscle?

lol, I have no idea, I?ve had it for months since a dodgy shoulder press day, I rest for like 10-14 days, go back to the gym then a couple weeks in I get the usual aching pain and weakness and it gets worse each week. Totally pissing me off, I?m wondering if bold would help. This would be the 3rd or 4th break now, can't get any progress with this ****.