good read on tendons and AAS

[bubba289]

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you.

[bubba289]

i realize this goes against the grain a bit but i'm thinking my next cycle and the rest of the one i'm on is gonna have alot less test and alot more of the above mentioned. i have alot of trouble with my tendons, its affecting my training and it sucks! it may be from test and it may not but theres only one sure way to find out. it could be that i just gained too much weight/strength too fast, either way i really need stronger tendons! i'm dropping the test in my current cycle to 187mg/wk leaving deca at 450mg/wk and running hgh and igf-1. i'm just praying i dont get deca dick, if i do i'll get some proviron in a hurry!

[tryn2byolkt]

Ive been debating between Winny and eq for my next cycle, along with test. Good info!

[testi1969]

very good post!!!!

I strated taking winni tabs at 50mgs ed at week 8 of my 10 week of test e and by the second week all my joints were shot!!!! so i stopped it and i raised the dose of test from 500mg to 675 mgs per week and running it to week 15 - i feel much better since i stopped the winnies they just didnt agree with me. im on week 11 im 6'2'' starting weight 200 current weight 225

[Selene]

very good information thank you for sharing

[PUMP2356]

Hey this is one of the best posts I have read, and relates nicely to the question I had a few days ago. It makes primobolan look useful especially for contact sports when no water weight is wanted.

[5x10]

Originally Posted by bubba289

i realize this goes against the grain a bit but i'm thinking my next cycle and the rest of the one i'm on is gonna have alot less test and alot more of the above mentioned. i have alot of trouble with my tendons, its affecting my training and it sucks! it may be from test and it may not but theres only one sure way to find out. it could be that i just gained too much weight/strength too fast, either way i really need stronger tendons! i'm dropping the test in my current cycle to 187mg/wk leaving deca at 450mg/wk and running hgh and igf-1. i'm just praying i dont get deca dick, if i do i'll get some proviron in a hurry!

i think thats smart
doesnt matter what everyone says, the stats speak for themselves
i wonder why bodybuilders of the 70s didnt have test in every cycle

i dont think you will get deca dick
the only guys ive ever heard got it(not many at all) were dosing 600mgs+ a week and got it after extended use of the drug over time

you can also keep test suspension or prop handy if it does strike

reps for the great article! it makes sense why i ache so much now, even though i still have test in me from my shot last week

[aslan]

learned something new today, good post.

[bubba289]

so according to the quote below even if u have one or more of these drugs in your cycle test basically cancels it out.?. is that the way everyone else understands this?

"Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited."

[PUMP2356]

Originally Posted by bubba289

so according to the quote below even if u have one or more of these drugs in your cycle test basically cancels it out.?. is that the way everyone else understands this?

"Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited."

anyone want to experiment and try 600-1g of primo stacked with dianabol for 8 weeks with 100-200mg of testosterone and see what happens? I bet this cycle could catch on ...

[spowers1]

Originally Posted by PUMP2356

anyone want to experiment and try 600-1g of primo stacked with dianabol for 8 weeks with 100-200mg of testosterone and see what happens? I bet this cycle could catch on ...

Sure! Just send it to me!

[5x10]

Originally Posted by bubba289

Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited."

its saying a little bit(less than 200 mgs) of test will help collagen synthesis
more than that, and it hurts it

[bubba289]

Originally Posted by 5x10

its saying a little bit(less than 200 mgs) of test will help collagen synthesis
more than that, and it hurts it

right, i got that much...i should have been more specific. is it saying that supraphysiological doses of test will cancel out the collagen synthesis from the other AAS? what i mean is, if EQ increases it by 340% but test decreases it by 50% that leaves a +290%....UNLESS test totally nullifies the positive effects of the others.

[Mattmachineae]

This seems to be VERY helpful info for me....I planned on doing a test e @500mg/wk for 10 wks and dbol at 30mg/ed for 4 weeks, but the only thing is I'm a minor league baseball player. I don't need my tendons to get frail and I was wondering what dosages and for how long you would recommend for the primo? For the test I guess I could use between 150-200mg/wk if that's what i'm understanding?

[BOWIE]

Bump. More bros need to read this and understand the significance of taking care of their tendons. I'm big into blood & guts style training and I've been able to lift some heavy-ass weight, injury free, by looking out after my tendons.

[goyfa]

Good read. I was on the fence about keeping GH going during my next cycle (cause of cost) but I think I will keep it going after reading this.

[bubba289]

i got some PM's on this last night while i was out so just to make this clear to everyone I DID NOT WRITE THIS ARTICLE. its just a copy and past from another board. there was no author and no references, i copied everything that was there. i'm not trying to take credit for it, i just dont know where credit is deserved!

[Vaporize]

So do you guys think this would be a decent cycle given this information?

Week 1-16 800mg EQ/week
Week 1-6 40mg dbol ED
Week 1-16 150mg test/week
Week 7-16 Tren ace 300mg/week

Week 1-16 proviron 50mg ED
Week 7-16 hcg 150iu EoD

Week 18-22 Nolva 20mg ED
Week 18-22 IGF-1 LR3 50mcg M,T,TH,F

I wanna give this a whirl after I see how I react to tren when I start it in 2 weeks. I'm thinking the low dose or test, proviron and hcg will be enough to keep me from having any ED problems but I could be wrong! Input is appreciated. (This is just a rough draft I threw together this morning after seeing the tendon post.)

[bubba289]

that looks pretty good to me. i'm worried about ED with these doses too. like u said though, proviron should help. i've never ran a test dose that low so i just wont know till i try it. i'm thinkin of running cycles more like this for awhile but 2-3 times a year throw in a large dose of test for a short period of time, like 4 weeks.

[ShortMonster]

Read this a while back, great idea for bringing it back up bubba! Thanks dude, reps for the hell of it.( Cant now sorry)

[Vaporize]

I've been hearing EQ is too weak to really use... but how about at 800mg/week? Think that will be high enough to yield good gains?

[bubba289]

i was unimpressed by it personally. i ran it at 600mg/wk for 10 weeks, < i know it wasnt really long enough to get the full effect but after 10 weeks i should have been noticing something from it. to be fair though, i was running too much other stuff to tell what effects were from the EQ and what was from everything else.

[Vaporize]

I think I'm just gonna have to experiment for myself :P should be fun. And what the hell, if I don't feel it by week 10 I'll throw in tren! haha that should get things rollin.

[bAby norAA]

great post bubba, reps if it will let me.

[hoorah66]

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis but makes the ligaments / joints weaker right? Or something similar like that. But the 3 above increase collagen synthesis and make the ligaments / joints stronger.

If I were to use it winstrol with bold, would it make a huge impact on ligaments / joints and zero out the bold or would it make a slight decrease but still be in the positive region because the bold out weights the winstrols negativity?

[stackedDAWG]

Originally Posted by hoorah66

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis but makes the ligaments / joints weaker right? Or something similar like that. But the 3 above increase collagen synthesis and make the ligaments / joints stronger.

If I were to use it winstrol with bold, would it make a huge impact on ligaments / joints and zero out the bold or would it make a slight decrease but still be in the positive region because the bold out weights the winstrols negativity?

TRUE....But also the article NEVER says leave out TEST. If it did I would call bs.


I will tell you this my first cycle was EQ and winny. I have always been a fan of EQ. I love what it does to MY body, but then again I am a believer that each person will react to each compound differently. Maybe not much but a little. Having said that it is also vital to understand how compounds work. It is important (in my opinion) for aas users to study them and understand them. Not really the chemical makeup, but the affects on the human body. I still do not undersand the lack of reasearch most aas users seem to display.

BTW, GREAT post bubba...

[_Bladen_]

Thanks for the post man, been having some joint problems lately definately an interesting read. Thinking about running deca at a high dose alongside aflutop in my next cycle.

[hoorah66]

Originally Posted by stackedDAWG

TRUE....But also the article NEVER says leave out TEST. If it did I would call bs.


I will tell you this my first cycle was EQ and winny. I have always been a fan of EQ. I love what it does to MY body, but then again I am a believer that each person will react to each compound differently. Maybe not much but a little. Having said that it is also vital to understand how compounds work. It is important (in my opinion) for aas users to study them and understand them. Not really the chemical makeup, but the affects on the human body. I still do not undersand the lack of reasearch most aas users seem to display.

BTW, GREAT post bubba...

My cycle is not just EQ and Winny, but there's no Test and I want to use up the winny I have.

[PG]

i guess this is why i love deca. Good mass, not so bad bloat, increase in both skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength.

So in essence, the base of every bulking cycle should be

Test + Deca -or- Test + EQ
(maybe throw in some anavar)

The reason i say that is primo is over rated in my eye.


rep'd

[alphaJ]

Originally Posted by PG

i guess this is why i love deca. Good mass, not so bad bloat, increase in both skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength.

So in essence, the base of every bulking cycle should be

Test + Deca -or- Test + EQ
(maybe throw in some anavar)

The reason i say that is primo is over rated in my eye.


rep'd

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMM Test/deca/anavar............let the count down begin...