Machine VS a BB, for a beginner to do BB bench

[bodyhard]

This morning I got into a discussion with a good friend of mine who has been training for as long as I have but he has a way better build than I do (he is a meso endo ecto 3,2,1 respectively) lucky bastard

Anyway we got to discussing what is better for a a beginner get better on a BB bench BB itself or machine then BB.

My argument BB is better, reason:

Positive: Barbell
BB helps to bring in the stabilizer muscle which help with form, thus allowing the beginner to work his way up in strength as well.

Negative: Machine
Machines help and take away from the stabilizer muscle which will help with strength but not form so when the beginner uses the BB his form will be out of whack due to his stabilizer muscle not being worked. So when he uses the BB for the first time he will be in for a big surprise and confidence will drop

His reasoning machines are better:

Positive: Machines
Machine will help with confidence and will work on form, since the beginner doesn't have to focus on balance.

Negative: Barbell
BB requires too much balance, beginner might sway to the side, or downward towards the belly or upward towards the head, confidence will drop and beginner will lose interest.

What are your thoughts if any?

[michaeljazz]

Good stuff man. I think both sides have valid points that are of interest to me as a beginner myself.

I personally do barbell bench because the weight room I'm using in my apartment doesn't have a bench machine.

My weight room does have an incline press though. So on the bench I do BP and flys. Then I rock the incline and get the best of both worlds. I do find that I have to use lighter barbells than I can lift on the incline press.. probably because of the stabilizer muscle you mentioned. That confused me at first.. but I think I realized that later.

Thanks for this insight!!

[newmexico123]

Free weights are always superior IMO. If you are starting why would you not want to get the stablizers going too?

[johnben]

IMO..I think that light weight BB is the best way to go. I personally switched to DB's from BB's....as the ROM was better. When I first started....it was hard to check my ego using the BB at first....too much weight....sacrificed form. After I started lowering weight....got much better returns using BB versus machines.

[TwiloMike]

I'm with you, BH, on this one. In my opinion, learining to do it right fron the beginning (with light DBs if necessary at first) is far more important than getting a beginner used to a machine because they might "feel bad" on a bench. WTF is the emo stuff for?

A beginner should work with someone experienced. They'll feel just as bad when they think they're all badass pushing 2pps on a machine, only to discover that they can barely do half that in free weight conditions. Talk about a dangerous situation: a heavily loaded barbell that will cause stabilizer muscle failure and will go out of good form path is far more dangerous than an empty barbell that does the same.

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by newmexico123

Free weights are always superior IMO. If you are starting why would you not want to get the stablizers going too?

My point exactly, once the beginner gets all pumped up because he is doing xx amount of weight once he goes to do the BB he will NOT be able to do the same amount of weight because of the stabilizer muscles, so why not trained them from jump?

[StartinOver-68]

Free weights. Bench pressing alone is safer with a machine though. No fun trying to get 200+ off your chest when you're spent.

[Greystoke]

Why choose at all? I think that doing both is best. Do the mass exercize BB bench press then finish up with machine pec deck till exhausted. Or squats followed up with some quick machine curls or leg sled. Both sides of your question have pros, so use them both!

[farsscf]

I agree that free weights are better so why not learn them from the start? Although, I would hope the beginner would have some instruction on form and safety. Machines have their place, over there by the colored dumbbells and treadmills.

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by TwiloMike

I'm with you, BH, on this one. In my opinion, learining to do it right fron the beginning (with light DBs if necessary at first) far more important than getting a beginner used to a machine because they might "feel bad" on a bench. WTF is the emo stuff for?

A beginner should work with someone experienced. They'll feel just as bad when they think they're all badass pushing 2pps on a machine, only to discover that they can bareful do half that in free weight conditions. Talk about a dangerous situation: a heavily loaded barbell that goes out of good form path is far more dangerous than an empty barbell that does the same.

Again my point

Originally Posted by StartinOver-68

Free weights. Bench pressing alone is safer with a machine though. No fun trying to get 200+ off your chest when you're spent.

Originally Posted by Greystoke

Why choose at all? I think that doing both is best. Do the mass exercize BB bench press then finish up with machine pec deck till exhausted. Or squats followed up with some quick machine curls or leg sled. Both sides of your question have pros, so use them both!

Guys I am talking about a beginner learning to bench for the very first time. Which one will help him learn form and function and why?

[tryn2getstrong]

My buddy that I work out with used to work with his Smith Machine at home. When he first came to the gym and I got him on FW's he really had to adjust because of the stabilizer issue. His weight dropped for a week or two until he got the motion down on the FW's.

That being said I'd still opt for a smith machine first, just for a few weeks. It will allow the trainee to add some tension(weight) without having to worry about the form. And with help, it will also show him the correct form. Then after a few weeks you just drop the weight some, and get on the free weights.

That's how my trainer taught me squats and worked a lot easier. I had confidence initially because I was using the smith machine. Once we moved to the FW's I did have to learn the movement, and train the stablizers, but I'd already gained confidence, and a little muscle memory from the smith.

[farsscf]

Originally Posted by bodyhard

Again my point





Guys I am talking about a beginner learning to bench for the very first time. Which one will help him learn form and function and why?

BB will help him learn form and function specifically for the reason you stated, stabilizer muscles. This is also one reason I am for DB pressing.

[farsscf]

Originally Posted by tomsmither

My buddy that I work out with used to work with his Smith Machine at home. When he first came to the gym and I got him on FW's he really had to adjust because of the stabilizer issue. His weight dropped for a week or two until he got the motion down on the FW's.

That being said I'd still opt for a smith machine first, just for a few weeks. It will allow the trainee to add some tension(weight) without having to worry about the form. And with help, it will also show him the correct form. Then after a few weeks you just drop the weight some, and get on the free weights.

That's how my trainer taught me squats and worked a lot easier. I had confidence initially because I was using the smith machine. Once we moved to the FW's I did have to learn the movement, and train the stablizers, but I'd already gained confidence, and a little muscle memory from the smith.

This is a valid point but I don't consider smith machines in the same category as the other types of machines.

[tryn2getstrong]

Originally Posted by bodyhard

My point exactly, once the beginner gets all pumped up because he is doing xx amount of weight once he goes to do the BB he will NOT be able to do the same amount of weight because of the stabilizer muscles, so why not trained them from jump?

As long as theyre working with someone with experience they'll realize that the smith machine or the hammer strength machines, don't transfer lb for lb to the free weights.

[Greystoke]

OK, IMO it's good to start with the training wheels on, just till you can get your sea legs. I agree to not stay there too long.

[namtrag]

I will be different and say Dumbells, he can get the stabilizer muscles, doesn't have to worry about dropping the weights on his chest, and can turn his hands to the correct pushing angle for his body and avoid shoulder injuries. Also it makes each pec do the work on its own. The bb makes everyone push at the exact same angle. For example, my hands naturally want to face each other slightly, so when I do bb, it is an unnatural motion.

I do bb, but not often. Never machines unless I have no choice

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by farsscf

BB will help him learn form and function specifically for the reason you stated, stabilizer muscles. This is also one reason I am for DB pressing.

Yeah DB are in a class of their own, I have done some serious flt BB bench presses with some strong Mo-Fo's and when I take them to the DB racks they get get eaten alive. Example:

One of my training partners can bench 405 for reps, but when he goes to the DB he is doing 75lbs! He always yells out to me I hate these F'ing DB! But I am more than sure if he did them more often he would recruit his stabilizer muscle more and he would push up some serious poundage.

[farsscf]

agreed, DBs hit so much more.

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by namtrag

I will be different and say Dumbells, he can get the stabilizer muscles, doesn't have to worry about dropping the weights on his chest, and can turn his hands to the correct pushing angle for his body and avoid shoulder injuries. Also it makes each pec do the work on its own. The bb makes everyone push at the exact same angle. For example, my hands naturally want to face each other slightly, so when I do bb, it is an unnatural motion.

I do bb, but not often. Never machines unless I have no choice

Again we are talking strictly which one is better to do, to become better at flat barbell pressing.

DB are very good at recruiting the stabilizer muscle even more so than the BB requires but if you are doing DB flat bench to learn BB flat I think it would defeat the purpose because when you do a BB bench your movement is restricted thus you need to learn that restriction and adjust to it.

So doing the BB bench to be better at BB bench to me is the best way around it.

[farsscf]

Originally Posted by bodyhard

Yeah DB are in a class of their own, I have done some serious flt BB bench presses with some strong Mo-Fo's and when I take them to the DB racks they get get eaten alive. Example:

One of my training partners can bench 405 for reps, but when he goes to the DB he is doing 75lbs! He always yells out to me I hate these F'ing DB! But I am more than sure if he did them more often he would recruit his stabilizer muscle more and he would push up some serious poundage.

wow, I can do 75 on incline and I am no where close to 405 on BB.

[namtrag]

agreed. Start on the bb, just use the bar if necessary. Why not start with what you want to eventually end up using anyway, and work your way up in weight?

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by farsscf

wow, I can do 75 on incline and I am no where close to 405 on BB.

I am willing to bet you are more comfortable with DB and you do them more than BB. The two have nothing to do with each other

[farsscf]

I work out alone so it is easier to go heavy with DBs than BB. But I would hope gaining strength with DBs would eventually help with how much I can do on BB

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by farsscf

I work out alone so it is easier to go heavy with DBs than BB. But I would hope gaining strength with DBs would eventually help with how much I can do on BB

Nope it wont. Not trying to burst your bubble but it wont. The only way to get stronger and better on BB is to do them.

[farsscf]

well, that sucks. I still do flat BB, I just can't go to failure with no spotter.

[Dashel]

Barbell by far. Machines dont allow the same range of motion and allow stablizer muscles as you said. If you're worried about form, simply drop the weight until the weakest links are strengthened. As a beginner gains will come fast and frequent, no reason to use a machine at all.

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by farsscf

well, that sucks. I still do flat BB, I just can't go to failure with no spotter.

It is true and it applies to almost any exercise, you can do all the leg press in the world, but once you get under a bar to do bb squats it is an entire different world!

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying that you wont be stronger on BB bench after getting stronger on the DB bench but you wont be AS strong on the bench as if you were working your way up on the BB bench itself and vice versa

[bodyhard]

Originally Posted by farsscf

well, that sucks. I still do flat BB, I just can't go to failure with no spotter.

You know Farss you don't need to go to failure to become stronger on any given exercise I hope you know that.

As a matter of fact going to eccentric failure too frequently could become counterproductive and lead to overtraining

[farsscf]

Bad choice of terms, I just meant I can't push myself as hard. I am still learning though.

[tryn2getstrong]

Originally Posted by bodyhard

Nope it wont. Not trying to burst your bubble but it wont. The only way to get stronger and better on BB is to do them.

That's wierd, I've always had the best results working with both bb's and db's(heavy). It seemed like, before this 5x5 routine, my bb would stall unless I was also doing heavy flat db's.