Israel: We failed in our war against Hezbollah

[Evolution_Z]

I was astonished in finding out that a lot of the members here didn't understand that Isreal lost its war against Hezbollah. For that I decided to make this thread which contains not my opinion but facts presented in the Winograd Commission. Placing in minde that the Winograd Commission was made for the sole purpose of evaluating the last Israeli War.

Here is what the Israelis said about their last war. So please I would love some intelligent post from people who understand that the Israelis know more about the last war then they do.

Originally Posted by Winograd Commission

2. The Commission was appointed due to a strong sense of a crisis and deep disappointment with the consequences of the campaign and the way it was conducted. We regarded accepted this difficult task both as a duty and a privilege. It is our belief that the larger the event and the deeper the feeling of crisis.........

9. Despite this broad support, we determine that there are very serious failings in these decisions and the way they were made. [b]We impose the primary responsibility for these failures on the Prime Minister, the minister of defence and the (outgoing) Chief of Staff.[b] All three made a decisive personal contribution to these decisions and the way in which they were made. Howwever,, there are many others who share responsibility for the mistakes we found in these decisions and for their background conditions........

10. The main failures in the decisions made and the decision-making processes can be summed up as follows:

b. Consequently, in making the decision to go to war, the government did not consider the whole range of options, including that of continuing the policy of ?containment?, or combining political and diplomatic moves with military strikes below the ?escalation level?, or military preparations without immediage military action - so as to maintain for Israel the full range of responses to the abduction. This failure reflects weakness in strategic thinking, which derives the response to the event from a more comprehensive and encompassing picture.

f. Even after these facts became known to the political leaders, they failed to adapt the military way of operation and its goals to the reality on the ground. On the contrary, declared goals were too ambitious, and it was publicly states that fighting will continue till they are achieved. But the authorized military operations did not enable their achievement...........

12. Let us start with the Prime Minister.

a. The Prime Minister bears supreme and comprehensive responsibility for the decisions of ?his? government and the operations of the army. His responsibility for the failures in the initial decisions concerning the war stem from both his position and from his behavior, as he initiated and led the decisions which were taken.........

b. The Prime Minister made up his mind hastily, despite the fact that no detailed military plan was submitted to him and without asking for one. Also, his decision was made without close study of the complex features of the Lebanon front and of the military, political and diplomatic options available to Israel. He made his decision without systematic consultation with others, especially outside the the IDF, [n]despite not having experience in external-political and military affairs.[/n] In addition, he did not adequately consider political and professional reservations presented to him before the fateful decisions of July 12th.........

c. The Prime Minister is responsible for the fact that the goals of the campaign were not set out clearly and carefully, and that there was no serious discussion of the relationships between these goals and the authorized modes of military action. He made a personal contribution to the fact that the declared goals were over-ambitious and not feasible........

e. All of these add up to a serious failure in exercising judgment, responsibility and prudence...............

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...0-Apr-2007.htm

It goes on and on.

I know that a lot will come in here hurling insults at me. But at least admit the defeat of Israel against Hebollah. This is what the Israelis are saying not me and I dont see how anyone would be entitled to saying otherwise.

I also find it very interesting that a lot of these failures were predicted in advance by Hezbollah Prime minster. Especially the part where in the beginning he pointed out that Olmert , minster of defense and chief of staff had no understanding about war and how they will all lose their place in Israel, which actually happened to two of them.

[Chowboy]

It's tuff to win a war when your advesary hides among civilians and is more than willing to parade the dead civilians around - the civilians they intentionally put in harm's way.

While the Israeli's did not accomplish all the intended goals, Lebanon is a wreck right now; Israel was back to normal a couple of weeks later.

If the Israeli's didn't fight with one hand behind their back, Lebanon and their "Holy Warrior" contingent would be back in the stone ages.

[samian]

I see lots of faliures, but not an overall concession of faliure of the ENTIRE war.

eg. Churchill's naval strategy in world war 1 failed badly, and probably failed due to lots of lesser tactical faliures, but the overall outcome of WW1 was not a faliure.

Logically, a war can have faliures by staff, faliures in tactics, faliures in planning, though need not nessecarily BE a faliure itself. From what I have just read I don't think it is a watertight argument that the war was a faliure. If I missed at any point the words "therefore the war was a faliure" or "we failed in the war", as you say in your title, then please point them out and I will completely change my opinion on the matter (no bias).

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by Chowboy

It's tuff to win a war when your advesary hides among civilians and is more than willing to parade the dead civilians around - the civilians they intentionally put in harm's way.

While the Israeli's did not accomplish all the intended goals, Lebanon is a wreck right now; Israel was back to normal a couple of weeks later.

If the Israeli's didn't fight with one hand behind their back, Lebanon and their "Holy Warrior" contingent would be back in the stone ages.

Now everyone needs to understand that I presented facts while "chowboy" simply presented his opinion.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by samian

I see lots of faliures, but not an overall concession of faliure of the ENTIRE war.

eg. Churchill's naval strategy in world war 1 failed badly, and probably failed due to lots of lesser tactical faliures, but the overall outcome of WW1 was not a faliure.

Logically, a war can have faliures by staff, faliures in tactics, faliures in planning, though need not nessecarily BE a faliure itself. From what I have just read I don't think it is a watertight argument that the war was a faliure.

A war is won when the goals are accomplished. If you read the report you would have realized that the goals were not accomplished.

That of course to say the least.

[Chowboy]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

Now everyone needs to understand that I presented facts while "chowboy" simply presented his opinion.

Opinions, Uh?

I guess Lebanon isn't a wreck? Billions of dollars worth of damage, but hey that must be the evil Zionist propaganda.

The "Holy Warriors" you are sooo proud of didn't hide amongst civilians? Meh, you are deluded.

Your hate for Israel blinds you to an reality. Your just a... well... a "deluded z."

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by Chowboy

Opinions, Uh?

I guess Lebanon isn't a wreck? Billions of dollars worth of damage, but hey that must be the evil Zionist propaganda.

The "Holy Warriors" you are sooo proud of didn't hide amongst civilians? Meh, you are deluded.

Your hate for Israel blinds you to an reality. Your just a... well... a "deluded z."

Again mere opinion mixed with insult and sarcasm.

Sorry but in a serious debate these have no weight hat so ever.

I can say the exact same thing about Israel.

[samian]

Ok Im reading the whole thing, its pretty long, but I think your quotation of it is a bit ambiguous, for example you missed the section 10 d.

"Some of the declared goals of the war were not clear and could not be achieved, and in part were not achieveable by the authorized modes of military action."

which seems to single handedly prove me wrong. by their own defenition they have then failed. however section 8 and 9:

"We start with the decision of the government on the fateful evening of the 12th to authorize a sharp military response, and end with the speech of the Prime Minister in the Knesset on July 17th, when he officially presented the campaign and its goals" ... " there are very serious failings in these decisions and the way they were made"

which implies there were failings in the goals themselves.

I will carry on reading...

[user67987300011654]

Israel could not win that either way

they invaded a foreign country and killed more civilians by the hundreds than combatants

yes Hezbollah was smarter, Israel ended up looking like fools and tools. Hez kidnapped two soldiers, while Israel kidnaps people daily.

Either way, I just feel bad for the civilians on either side and the poor children.

[Chowboy]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

Again mere opinion mixed with insult and sarcasm.

Sorry but in a serious debate these have no weight hat so ever.

I can say the exact same thing about Israel.

Serious debate or anti-Israel soap box?

So, you refute that there wasn't billions of dollars of damage? I guess all those pics were just a big lie...

You refute that the "Holy Warriors" didn't hide behind their momma's skirt?

Don't duck behind behind your delusion - prove me wrong...

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by samian

Ok Im reading the whole thing, its pretty long, but I think your quotation of it is a bit ambiguous, for example you missed the section 10 d.

"Some of the declared goals of the war were not clear and could not be achieved, and in part were not achieveable by the authorized modes of military action."

which seems to single handedly prove me wrong. by their own defenition they have then failed. however section 8 and 9:

"We start with the decision of the government on the fateful evening of the 12th to authorize a sharp military response, and end with the speech of the Prime Minister in the Knesset on July 17th, when he officially presented the campaign and its goals" ... " there are very serious failings in these decisions and the way they were made"

which implies there were failings in the goals themselves.

I will carry on reading...

I believe it was self explanatory and you actually said what I said but in more details.

They stated the that goals were "over-ambitious and not feasible" and thus that they Failed in accomplishing them, which then would lead to the answer of "they failed in their war".

[paolo59]

The question is not who won that particular little "war," but rather with the lessons learned, who will win the next one? I think Israel's response to any further provocation from Hezbollah will take into consideration the past. I would suspect that in any next go round, there will be little question as to who can propogandize after the fact. Israel doesn't make the same mistakes twice.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by paolo59

The question is not who won that particular little "war," but rather with the lessons learned, who will win the next one? I think Israel's response to any further provocation from Hezbollah will take into consideration the past. I would suspect that in any next go round, there will be little question as to who can propogandize after the fact. Israel doesn't make the same mistakes twice.

Apparently neither does Hezbollah who declared that after the 2000 victory they immediately started planing for the next war.

[samian]

well its a good report and I am now convinced that if we have to ask "who won?" it would be neither. Israel did fail. The report is actually very critical- there was no useful communication, lack of response to concerns, lack of military training and readiness, and lack of restraint and consideration for other options before the knee-jerk escalation to war.


however hezbollah can hardly claim victory either, the state of lebanon from which they fought the war has severely damaged infrastructure, so I think their only victory here is political.

though I don't think we can expect the same self-criticism israel has shown from them.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by samian

well its a good report and I am now convinced that if we have to ask "who won?" it would be neither. Israel did fail. The report is actually very critical- there was no useful communication, lack of response to concerns, lack of military training and readiness, and lack of restraint and consideration for other options before the knee-jerk escalation to war.


however hezbollah can hardly claim victory either, the state of lebanon from which they fought the war has severely damaged infrastructure, so I think their only victory here is political.

though I don't think we can expect the same self-criticism israel has shown from them.

Thats good to hear.

Now place in mind the significances of the Israeli armed forces in both financial and military standards and compare that to Hezbollah.

If you do so you can relate to the victory of Hezbollah. Its like if I went to and slapped a child and the child managed to at least inflict some damage to me and in me "wanting" to stop to the fight. I would be considered the losers even though I gave him a string blow.

[Chowboy]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

Thats good to hear.

Now place in mind the significances of the Israeli armed forces in both financial and military standards and compare that to Hezbollah.

If you do so you can relate to the victory of Hezbollah. Its like if I went to and slapped a child and the child managed to at least inflict some damage to me and in me "wanting" to stop to the fight. I would be considered the losers even though I gave him a string blow.

Bad analogy. Lebanon, or at least, the Heztards, have the full support of Iran and Syria - financially and militarily.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by Chowboy

Bad analogy. Lebanon, or at least, the Heztards, have the full support of Iran and Syria - financially and militarily.

You are teh rightz dude!!!!

Now go play with your legos

[Chowboy]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

You are teh rightz dude!!!!

Now go play with your legos

In retrospect, the heztards were like a little child, picked a fight, then cried like little girls when the pain came.

Oh, and the expression is: teh evil jooooz!

[Chowboy]

Ooooh, the evil neg. First you want a serious debate, then faced with differing facts, you resort to childish behaviour.

Yep, you are quite the debater, little one.

[Lucky_ROA]

Why cant that person who released that statement just say " Hiya folks, we got our asses handed by Hezbollah. Adios"

Why such a complicated long boring speech ?

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by Lucky_ROA

Why cant that person who released that statement just say " Hiya folks, we got our asses handed by Hezbollah. Adios"

Why such a complicated long boring speech ?

Because when its such a long speech people wont bother reading it and finding the facts.

[DigitalMuscle]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

I was astonished in finding out that a lot of the members here didn't understand that Isreal lost its war against Hezbollah. For that I decided to make this thread which contains not my opinion but facts presented in the Winograd Commission. Placing in minde that the Winograd Commission was made for the sole purpose of evaluating the last Israeli War.

Here is what the Israelis said about their last war. So please I would love some intelligent post from people who understand that the Israelis know more about the last war then they do.


http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government...0-Apr-2007.htm

It goes on and on.

I know that a lot will come in here hurling insults at me. But at least admit the defeat of Israel against Hebollah. This is what the Israelis are saying not me and I dont see how anyone would be entitled to saying otherwise.

I also find it very interesting that a lot of these failures were predicted in advance by Hezbollah Prime minster. Especially the part where in the beginning he pointed out that Olmert , minster of defense and chief of staff had no understanding about war and how they will all lose their place in Israel, which actually happened to two of them.

israel does not win or lose wars, they create enemies..

two words for you

fake apocalyspe!

[TheGreekHulk84]

Wow! another cool massdebate.

[okasha]

Nobody won this war...1000 dead Lebanese, many of them children is not winning...

Israel you could say did not meet it's objectives..

All in all, I believe it is foolish to say anyone won.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by okasha

Nobody won this war...1000 dead Lebanese, many of them children is not winning...

Israel you could say did not meet it's objectives..

All in all, I believe it is foolish to say anyone won.

Well all well funded Arab countries were not able to stand more than 6 days against Israel.

Compare that with a simple militia who not only stood their ground but actually forced Israel in accepting a cease fire.

Thats victory.

[KINGJAMES23]

Isreal lost more soldiers than Hezbollah. I call that a loss.

[okasha]

Originally Posted by KINGJAMES23

Isreal lost more soldiers than Hezbollah. I call that a loss.

Number of troops lost has nothing to do with it.

But if that's what you consider then that's fine.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by KINGJAMES23

Isreal lost more soldiers than Hezbollah. I call that a loss.

Whats more amazing was how they did that with almost all the governments surrounding them standing against them.

Its like the arab government who weren't able in accomplishing scrap are now all whining to why Hezbollah was able to do what they failed miserably in trying to accomplish.

[okasha]

Originally Posted by Evolution_Z

Well all well funded Arab countries were not able to stand more than 6 days against Israel.

Compare that with a simple militia who not only stood their ground but actually forced Israel in accepting a cease fire.

Thats victory.

Keep in mind that South Lebanon was destroyed so these guys could achieve their so called victory.

THe diffirence is that the Arab nations took it army to army, which is ALOT diffirent.

Believe me, had Hezbollah walked out into the open to fight Israel eye to eye, they would have been destroyed within hours.

I'm not a fan of either..

I think Hezbollah is a tool of Iran to expand their influence in the region.


They claim their love for Syria, yet Syria and Hezbollah were killing each other during the civil war.

[Evolution_Z]

Originally Posted by okasha

Keep in mind that South Lebanon was destroyed so these guys could achieve their so called victory.He diffirence is that the Arab nations took it army to army, which is ALOT diffirent.Believe me, had Hezbollah walked out into the open to fight Israel eye to eye, they would have been destroyed within hours.'m not a fan of either..I think Hezbollah is a tool of Iran to expand their influence in the region.They claim their love for Syria, yet Syria and Hezbollah were killing each other during the civil war.

So Hezbollah is now blamed for playing it right?

Well the Isreali government admitted that they were defeated by Hezbollah and that is enough proof for me and any sane person.