PROOF that either: omniscient god doesn't exist, or that free will = illusion

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 07:29 PM

This may be a repost, but I think it's a handy little thought experiment:

To those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god, you CANNOT believe in free will. This is because: if God knows everything, then your life is already determined, every single move you make, and therefore your simply acting out what is inevitable, and so your notion of 'free will' is an illusion. If you say that doesn't know the specifics, or doesn't know the end result, or anything for that matter, then he is not an all-knowing God. This would mean that most popular religions would leave us to believe that free will is an illusion.

I would just like to know if those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god agree with this?

Also, here's another thing, if God KNOWS everything, then he knows whether you will go to hell or heaven, if you say god doesn't know this, then he is, by definition, not ALL-KNOWING. if he does know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, then why bother with any of it? Why not just send all the souls destined for hell to their fate right now? Same thing with heaven?

The idea of omniscience in a creator cannot work logically with most of the basic principles of popularised religion, in my opinion.

If God is omniscient/omnipotent, then NOTHING poses as a challenge to him. He can do everything and knows everything. He would never feel bored, tired, hungry, angry, sad, depressed, lonely, as these are human traits brought about by a lack of something (hunger, lack of food, loneliness, lack of company etc) but god could have anything he wanted in unlimited quantities. Therefore, I ask you who believe in an all powerful God: Why did he create you? I don't want to hear 'he created us in his image' or 'it was a challenge for him' as these do not answer the question.

We have already established that by definition he could not WANT anything, and nothing is a challenge for him. I want to know WHY people think an omniscient, omnipotent God would create them, what possible reason he would have to create mankind..? Perhaps you've simply never thought about it, but its worth at least mulling over in your mind...

Anyway, let me know what you think, cheers

SoS

battousai216 · 07-25-2007, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

Why not just send all the souls destined for hell to their fate right now?

i'm starting to think maybe he did...and i'm in hell

timmy47 · 07-25-2007, 07:43 PM

also, because he is all knowing, that means he can know his own actions in the future. this makes him subject to fate and therefor not all powerful. god also cannot change or create concepts(concepts possibilities always exist no matter what. 2+2=4 always to anyone anywhere. even before we put words to it the concept is true. this applies to concepts logic as well) or be outside of time(a common argument that is based on time being linear for us and he is outside of that. that may be but nothing that exists, thinks and acts is outside of time. time is relative to existance. if god creates something, he knows that a moment ago there wasnt something. he is going through time because he can experience things like this.) and again, is not all powerful.

another bummer is that even if somehow there was free will with god, everything you choose is a result of what appeals to you. you dont choose what appeals to you however. so you had no real choice in the matter. in a way you are "forced" into choosing what is most appealing to you. and you have no choice over that. everytime we are presented with a choice, the brain reacts to the situation and comes up with a choice it feels is most appealing. but genetics decide what appeals to your brain. i could choose the red coat or blue coat. i choose red. why? i like red. why?....no one really knows why they like something. for what ever reason it appeals to their brain. so there is no real choice.

so if god created you this way, he created me not to follow him and others to follow him because it appeals to them. believing in something with no logical proof or material evidence doesnt appeal to me. and he would know this if he existed and created me.

this has been talked about a lot though.

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timmy47

also, because he is all knowing, that means he can know his own actions in the future. this makes him subject to fate and therefor not all powerful. god also cannot change or create concepts(concepts possibilities always exist no matter what. 2+2=4 always to anyone anywhere. even before we put words to it the concept is true. this applies to concepts logic as well) or be outside of time(a common argument that is based on time being linear for us and he is outside of that. that may be but nothing that exists, thinks and acts is outside of time. time is relative to existance. if god creates something, he knows that a moment ago there wasnt something. he is going through time because he can experience things like this.) and again, is not all powerful.

another bummer is that even if somehow there was free will with god, everything you choose is a result of what appeals to you. you dont choose what appeals to you however. so you had no real choice in the matter. in a way you are "forced" into choosing what is most appealing to you. and you have no choice over that. everytime we are presented with a choice, the brain reacts to the situation and comes up with a choice it feels is most appealing. but genetics decide what appeals to your brain. i could choose the red coat or blue coat. i choose red. why? i like red. why?....no one really knows why they like something. for what ever reason it appeals to their brain. so there is no real choice.

so if god created you this way, he created me not to follow him and others to follow him because it appeals to them. believing in something with no logical proof or material evidence doesnt appeal to me. and he would know this if he existed and created me.

this has been talked about a lot though.

Yes, I forgot to add that a God who knows everything also knows his own actions, and therefore cannot have free will himself. which means he is not all powerful. hrmmmm, that is a tricky one. Any christians/catholics/muslims etc care to comment? I'd like to hear your views on this... I never thought about it when I was a christian, it seems so obvious once someone points it out though =p

And going back to your post, it has been argued that as our brains are simply organic machines, working with a vast amount of data all the time, and as we can work out the behaviour of atoms, then it is THEORETICALLY possible if we could trace every bit of information in someones life, to work out what their decisions would be, and therefore we do not have free will. Of course such a thing would be impossible in reality.

Violator009 · 07-25-2007, 07:50 PM

I think your assumptions are wrong, have you ever read a bible? then you would know that God share some of our attributes, such as anger, jealousy, sadness, and so forth, we were made in his image, the only difference is he is supernatural and we are not.

I dont see how free will is an illusion, there is nothing stopping you from doing the things you want to, nobody is tieing your hands and feet or pulling your strings, you do that.

As i said before in another thread one of Gods attributes in the bible is that hes a heart knower, in order for God to know what your thinking or know what your planning, he must look into your thoughts, some may say then he isnt all knowing, but thats just a definition by man, it doesnt mean he isnt.

timmy47 · 07-25-2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

Yes, I forgot to add that a God who knows everything also knows his own actions, and therefore cannot have free will himself. which means he is not all powerful. hrmmmm, that is a tricky one. Any christians/catholics/muslims etc care to comment? I'd like to hear your views on this... I never thought about it when I was a christian, it seems so obvious once someone points it out though =p

And going back to your post, it has been argued that as our brains are simply organic machines, working with a vast amount of data all the time, and as we can work out the behaviour of atoms, then it is THEORETICALLY possible if we could trace every bit of information in someones life, to work out what their decisions would be, and therefore we do not have free will. Of course such a thing would be impossible in reality.

yea i never actually thought about gods actions until recently. i dont know why i didnt think of it sooner.

yea our brains pretty much are organic machines. i mean simple organisms just react to stuff. humans are just multi celled, complex organisms. we run on the same principles as the little guys. but we are capable of more things because we are more advanced and complex. but every cell runs on the same principles as everything else. everythings really just cause and effect.

farzamk · 07-25-2007, 07:59 PM

I COMPLETELY agree with this thread.

Religous people say this is a test (life), but how is it one if God already knows if you will pass or not? It's like going to a exam and the teacher already knows what you will get, then what's the point of doing it?

timmy47 · 07-25-2007, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violator009

I dont see how free will is an illusion, there is nothing stopping you from doing the things you want to, nobody is tieing your hands and feet or pulling your strings, you do that.

its an illusion because god knows all before he created you. this sets a path for your life and choices that you cannot escape. if you could then he wouldnt be all knowing, and therefor not all powerful. and besides that, like i said you dont choose your genetics and what is appealing to you. because you dont choose that, you are "doom" to choose only what your brain finds appealing. red coat or blue coat?

free will exists in the sense that no one is actually forcing me to act a certain way. but im still limited by my genetics. ever wonder why some people just dont like fish? did they choose that or are they just that way?

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violator009

I think your assumptions are wrong, have you ever read a bible? then you would know that God share some of our attributes, such as anger, jealousy, sadness, and so forth, we were made in his image, the only difference is he is supernatural and we are not.

I dont see how free will is an illusion, there is nothing stopping you from doing the things you want to, nobody is tieing your hands and feet or pulling your strings, you do that.

As i said before in another thread one of Gods attributes in the bible is that hes a heart knower, in order for God to know what your thinking or know what your planning, he must look into your thoughts, some may say then he isnt all knowing, but thats just a definition by man, it doesnt mean he isnt.

First of all, thank you for your response. While I respect your right to have an opinion, it sounds to me as if you have simply glossed over my post, simply thinking of reason why I am wrong, as opposed to thinking about what I said. I believe this because:

1. I say in my origional post that if God is all-powerful, how could he possibly have any of those attributes? He can do anything, so he can instantly get rid of any of those feelings and never, ever have them; He is god, he can do anything, so he could do this, right?

2. You didn't read my post thoroughly. PLEASE re-read it, i DO want a proper answe. What I said was basically this: If god knows everything, he knows what me and you will do, correct? He knows EVERYTHING me and you will ever do. So then, everything we do has already happened in some reality, because God knows what will happen, and so we are simply playing out what God KNOWS will happen. THAT is why it is the illusion of free will. Yes, we 'pull our own strings' but if god knows exactly which strings we are going to pull before we pull them, then its the illusion of being in control, is it not?

3. I don't understand your last point. It sounds to me like a VERY poor way of dodging an argument, which is so illogical it makes no sense in any way shape or form, but I think I've just missed the point of it. So could you clarify what you mean about the whole 'definition by man' thing? Thank you.

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by farzamk

I COMPLETELY agree with this thread.

Religous people say this is a test (life), but how is it one if God already knows if you will pass or not? It's like going to a exam and the teacher already knows what you will get, then what's the point of doing it?

exactly. Why does God bother with the Universe and the world at all as a testing ground, if he knows whether you will pass or fail already? Your example is a good one, I would only make 1 adjustment to it:

"Its like taking an exam, and not only does the teacher know what you will get, but has already graded you on it, so the teacher asking you to sit the exam is illogical as the outcome is already known' Pretty much the same as yours I guess =)

user437490845hjgd · 07-25-2007, 08:17 PM

When I was still a theist (maybe 13), I reconciled the free will vs omniscient God issue by constraining God's power in the following way. We have free will, but God knows the outcome of all possible combinations of action. In other words, God knows the precise state of the universe for all variations and permutations of every action of free will - for action following action following action.

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by types_with_fist

When I was still a theist (maybe 13), I reconciled the free will vs omniscient God issue by constraining God's power in the following way. We have free will, but God knows the outcome of all possible combinations of action. In other words, God knows the precise state of the universe for all variations and permutations of every action of free will - for action following action following action.

Thats the opinion I took, but as you can see, its completely flawed:

If God knows everything, not only does he know all the possible actions you could take, but he also knows the action you WILL take. he doesn't then he does not know everything, and is therefore not omniscient.

user437490845hjgd · 07-25-2007, 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

Thats the opinion I took, but as you can see, its completely flawed:

If God knows everything, not only does he know all the possible actions you could take, but he also knows the action you WILL take. he doesn't then he does not know everything, and is therefore not omniscient.

By putting a constraint on God's power, it is to say that God is not omniscient. I never found that idea to be particularly troubling (there are all sorts of similar mind experiments, most not even involving the concept of free will, which logically force you to constrain God's power - for example, "Is God powerful enough to create a system so complex that he cannot predict its behavior?" - either way, you have to constrain omnipotence/omniscience).

To expand on that view, it is to say that God devised a system so complex that even he could not predict its behavior, yet, he has perfect knowledge of the set of all such behavior for each individual exercise of free will, as well as the influence of this behavior upon the rest of the universe (save for other acts of free will - but he knows the outcome of all those combinations, nested and iterated forever). God was intrigued by such a notion, and created the universe specifically to observe his chaotic/unpredictable Rube Goldberg device iterate through phase space.

Anyway, there are far more fundamental problems of logic regarding the notion of God, etc. I am a non-verificationist agnostic who adheres to the 'verifiability theory of meaning' (some people term it 'ignosticism').

SurfOnSilver · 07-25-2007, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by types_with_fist

By putting a constraint on God's power, it is to say that God is not omniscient. I never found that idea to be particularly troubling (there are all sorts of similar mind experiments, most not even involving the concept of free will, which logically force you to constrain God's power - for example, "Is God powerful enough to create a system so complex that he cannot predict its behavior?" - either way, you have to constrain omnipotence/omniscience).

To expand on that view, it is to say that God devised a system so complex that even he could not predict its behavior, yet, he has perfect knowledge of the set of all such behavior for each individual exercise of free will, as well as the influence of this behavior upon the rest of the universe (save for other acts of free will - but he knows the outcome of all those combinations, nested and iterated forever). God was intrigued by such a notion, and created the universe specifically to observe his chaotic/unpredictable Rube Goldberg device iterate through phase space.

Anyway, there are far more fundamental problems of logic regarding the notion of God, etc. I am a non-verificationist agnostic who adheres to the 'verifiability theory of meaning' (some people term it 'ignosticism').

Although your post SOUNDS very impressive, and does indeed have some good thoughts behind it, I don't think your fundamentally tackling the issues at hand. You cannot 'constain' omnipotence/omniscience, they are absolute. Your suggestion that he made a system so complex that he himself could not know its outcome is flawed: Yes, if he is all-powerful, then this is possible, but if he is all-knowing, it is impossible at the same time. The point is that an omniscient/omnipotent being is paradoxial by nature.

Omniscience would mean not only knowing all the possible outcomes, but knowing the ACTUAL outcomes of everything, you would know everything, save nothing.

I believe there are other fundamental problems regarding the notion of god, but

user437490845hjgd · 07-25-2007, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

The point is that an omniscient/omnipotent being is paradoxial by nature.

I agree, which is why I readily abandoned it. I repeat - putting a constraint on God's power is to say he is not absolutely omniscient/omnipotent, which is the view I endorsed. I'm not trying to "solve" the puzzle in the OP - I am telling you how I reconciled these notions.

Super human · 07-25-2007, 09:12 PM

however one could say.

Since God is 'outside' of time and space constrains and even though G-d can foresee your future from the choices you make does not mean you can't act on your will.

Think if it like a car. You are driving it by controlling the steering wheel therefore you can see where you are going ultimately end up, call it spot A. However, you willingly decide to turn your car in a new direction. Now your final point is not A but some other point B. Same analogy with God is omniscient because he is aware of your actions hence he 'knows' your leading path / actions. hope that helps.

jackal337 · 07-25-2007, 09:20 PM

even without an omniscient god, free will does not exist.

Meshugener87 · 07-25-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackal337

even without an omniscient god, free will does not exist.

agreed. i figured that one out in AP psychology =/

Violator009 · 07-25-2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

1. I say in my origional post that if God is all-powerful, how could he possibly have any of those attributes?

God is not some uncaring force in outerspace, if he didnt care for us, he would not have sent his son to die for us, i see it as an act of compassion or love..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

He can do anything, so he can instantly get rid of any of those feelings and never, ever have them; He is god, he can do anything, so he could do this, right?.

Scripture says nothing is too hard for him to do, so yes its possible..

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

2. You didn't read my post thoroughly. PLEASE re-read it, i DO want a proper answe. What I said was basically this: If god knows everything, he knows what me and you will do, correct?

Yes, but only by looking into our thoughts, he will not know before hand like ive said. If God knew the outcome of every single being on earth, some of us would already be in hell and some in heaven and there would be no need for him to test us, especially those that serve him. Didnt God test Abraham to see whether he would sacrifice his son for him? didnt he test Jobs faith and so many others? Now if God already knew what they choose why would he test them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

3. I don't understand your last point. It sounds to me like a VERY poor way of dodging an argument, which is so illogical it makes no sense in any way shape or form, but I think I've just missed the point of it. So could you clarify what you mean about the whole 'definition by man' thing? Thank you.

One thing i realize is that God share some attributes with humans such as after the sixth day creation he rested. Now you would say why would God need rest hes all powerfull? And the answer is i dont know, but one reason i can come up with is that he is spirit and perhaps a spiritual body needs rest just as a fleshy body, now does this mean God is not all powerful or all knowing? No i dont think so, like i said before its impossible for us to know everything about God unless he reveals that information to us..everything else is just speculation..

Mr_Mya · 07-25-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

To those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god, you CANNOT believe in free will. This is because: if God knows everything, then your life is already determined, every single move you make, and therefore your simply acting out what is inevitable, and so your notion of 'free will' is an illusion. If you say that doesn't know the specifics, or doesn't know the end result, or anything for that matter, then he is not an all-knowing God. This would mean that most popular religions would leave us to believe that free will is an illusion.

I would just like to know if those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god agree with this?

Also, here's another thing, if God KNOWS everything, then he knows whether you will go to hell or heaven, if you say god doesn't know this, then he is, by definition, not ALL-KNOWING. if he does know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, then why bother with any of it? Why not just send all the souls destined for hell to their fate right now? Same thing with heaven?

The idea of omniscience in a creator cannot work logically with most of the basic principles of popularised religion, in my opinion.

If God is omniscient/omnipotent, then NOTHING poses as a challenge to him. He can do everything and knows everything. He would never feel bored, tired, hungry, angry, sad, depressed, lonely, as these are human traits brought about by a lack of something (hunger, lack of food, loneliness, lack of company etc) but god could have anything he wanted in unlimited quantities. Therefore, I ask you who believe in an all powerful God: Why did he create you? I don't want to hear 'he created us in his image' or 'it was a challenge for him' as these do not answer the question.

We have already established that by definition he could not WANT anything, and nothing is a challenge for him. I want to know WHY people think an omniscient, omnipotent God would create them, what possible reason he would have to create mankind..? Perhaps you've simply never thought about it, but its worth at least mulling over in your mind...

Anyway, let me know what you think, cheers

SoS

This is a tough concept because it involves thinking rather abstractly. If God is all-powerful, then God is not governed by time, he created it. Convert time to the 3rd dimension, in your mind, and give it a beginning and an end (I like to think of a glass cylinder where God, as light, is shining through it all) like a time line. From God's timeless perspective, all things have yet to happen, are happening and have yet to happen.

So, as we are locked into the time progression until our death, we can make decisions, ultimately leading to our final destination. Without time, I have trouble seeing how we could have a free-will as we are, in a sense, linear in our progression. One step after another.

For a biblical reference contrasting us from God, check out Isaiah 55:8-9 "8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the Lord. 9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

*edit* For your second question regarding why would God create mankind when he is all-powerful? I think the answer lies in what God values. I think the critical components to this are free-will and love. See Matthew 22:36-40. The greatest commandment is to love the Lord your God, with all your heart, soul and mind, and the 2nd greatest is to love your neighbor as yourself. This would indicate that God values, above anything else, your love freely given. If he wanted it coerced, it wouldn't be a commandment with the option not to follow, but robotic in nature.

Violator009 · 07-25-2007, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jackal337

even without an omniscient god, free will does not exist.

Thats why there are prisons

Pump that iron! · 07-25-2007, 09:51 PM

Bravo thread starter. I've made the same point that you make in this thread at least 50x on this forum. I don't know if the theists just don't understand or if they are in denial.

I've actually made two threads that talk in depth about free will and an omniscient God.

One dealt with homosexuality: why does God create homosexuals when some, possibly ALL, will end up in Hell. The thing is, he knows beforehand WHO is and WHO isn't going to Hell. Also, the theist might say "well he can change his life and not engage in homosexual behaviors" -- not necessarily. An individual can only do that if God PLANNED and FORESAW it that way.

Another one covered God and women. Eve was punished and all women after Eve were punished with the pain of childbirth and subordination to men because Eve took the forbidden fruit. In fact, she took it FIRST. Why would God create Eve if He knew she'd fail? The creepiest part is, since God is ALL KNOWING, he knew beforehand that he would have to end up punishing all women after Eve with the pain of childbirth and subordination to men.

striker543 · 07-25-2007, 09:52 PM

So your "proof" is just another theory on God, add it to the pile of the millions of other peoples theory on God.

The ways of God cannot even begin to be understood. You really think a being that is immortal, all knowing, all powerful, knowledge of all events past/present/future can read every mind and hear every thought, was never born and has always existed, the creator and sustainer of life can be defined or constrained by your tiny imagination as to what he can and can't do and some ridiculous notion he is somehow limited to fate.

Think about it

SurfOnSilver · 07-26-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Super human

however one could say.

Since God is 'outside' of time and space constrains and even though G-d can foresee your future from the choices you make does not mean you can't act on your will.

Think if it like a car. You are driving it by controlling the steering wheel therefore you can see where you are going ultimately end up, call it spot A. However, you willingly decide to turn your car in a new direction. Now your final point is not A but some other point B. Same analogy with God is omniscient because he is aware of your actions hence he 'knows' your leading path / actions. hope that helps.

It is an interesting way of looking at it, but if we look at your analogy, you will see that free will could not exist in that context if god is omniscient.
When you willingly decide to turn your car into a new direction, God already knows you were going to do that, it was GUARANTEED that you would make that choice. So, in some reality, the choice had already been made. Therefore you were simply acting out the inevitable. You had no choice but to follow it, because the choice was already made.

SurfOnSilver · 07-26-2007, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Violator009

God is not some uncaring force in outerspace, if he didnt care for us, he would not have sent his son to die for us, i see it as an act of compassion or love..

Scripture says nothing is too hard for him to do, so yes its possible..

Yes, but only by looking into our thoughts, he will not know before hand like ive said. If God knew the outcome of every single being on earth, some of us would already be in hell and some in heaven and there would be no need for him to test us, especially those that serve him. Didnt God test Abraham to see whether he would sacrifice his son for him? didnt he test Jobs faith and so many others? Now if God already knew what they choose why would he test them?

One thing i realize is that God share some attributes with humans such as after the sixth day creation he rested. Now you would say why would God need rest hes all powerfull? And the answer is i dont know, but one reason i can come up with is that he is spirit and perhaps a spiritual body needs rest just as a fleshy body, now does this mean God is not all powerful or all knowing? No i dont think so, like i said before its impossible for us to know everything about God unless he reveals that information to us..everything else is just speculation..

Well, I dont think he DID send his son to die for us, but let me ask you a question: What makes you think God CARES about things? What would an omniscient, omnipotent being care about? Its massively arrogant to assume such a being would have human thoughts and emotions - Do you have any more of an answer to this than 'he just is'?

You contradict yourself in your post. You say that scripture says nothing is too hard for him to do, then in the next sentence you say he CANT just know what we will do without looking into our thoughts. Thats an obvious limitation on knowledge an power, so then God is not omniscient or omnipotent? It stands to reason, if there are things he doesn't know without acting first, then he is neither omniscient or omnipotent. And your right, if God knows EVERYTHING then there would be no need for a testing ground because he would already know the outcome, which was my point. So your admitting he isn't omniscient?

Do you have any reasons to think he shares similar attributes to us, other than the bible? If not, then you've simply taken the bible at face falue without questioning your own beliefs, which I find astonishing. Im sure this isn't the case though, so I'd like to know why you believe an omniscient/potent god is remotely similar to humans. If God is omnipotent btw, he can do anything, so obviously he could just make it so his soul did not need a rest. If he couldn't then he isn't omnipotent. Also, if he can do ANYTHING (omnipotence) why not create everything instantly, why bother taking 6 days?

It looks to me as if, again, your last sentense is just an ambiguous way of getting out of a logical argument by saying we don't know everything, so anytime you can't answer a question, it doesn't mean that its a valid point, it just means God hasn't revealed himself... Not a great rebuttal imo... =\

grup910 · 07-26-2007, 07:11 AM

"god" isn't a being. It's a metaphor for what "existed" before the big bang. there's no he/she, no person-like traits, no human-like "will" that "decides" or "knows" or sends people to "heaven" or "hell." there's just Is-ness, within the context of nothing yet existing.

Vaper · 07-26-2007, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SurfOnSilver

This may be a repost, but I think it's a handy little thought experiment:

To those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god, you CANNOT believe in free will. This is because: if God knows everything, then your life is already determined, every single move you make, and therefore your simply acting out what is inevitable, and so your notion of 'free will' is an illusion. If you say that doesn't know the specifics, or doesn't know the end result, or anything for that matter, then he is not an all-knowing God. This would mean that most popular religions would leave us to believe that free will is an illusion.

I would just like to know if those of you who believe in an all-powerful, all-knowing god agree with this?

Also, here's another thing, if God KNOWS everything, then he knows whether you will go to hell or heaven, if you say god doesn't know this, then he is, by definition, not ALL-KNOWING. if he does know who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, then why bother with any of it? Why not just send all the souls destined for hell to their fate right now? Same thing with heaven?

The idea of omniscience in a creator cannot work logically with most of the basic principles of popularised religion, in my opinion.

If God is omniscient/omnipotent, then NOTHING poses as a challenge to him. He can do everything and knows everything. He would never feel bored, tired, hungry, angry, sad, depressed, lonely, as these are human traits brought about by a lack of something (hunger, lack of food, loneliness, lack of company etc) but god could have anything he wanted in unlimited quantities. Therefore, I ask you who believe in an all powerful God: Why did he create you? I don't want to hear 'he created us in his image' or 'it was a challenge for him' as these do not answer the question.

We have already established that by definition he could not WANT anything, and nothing is a challenge for him. I want to know WHY people think an omniscient, omnipotent God would create them, what possible reason he would have to create mankind..? Perhaps you've simply never thought about it, but its worth at least mulling over in your mind...

Anyway, let me know what you think, cheers

SoS

If you go to a phycic and she fortells your future, did she predetermine it or does she just know it ? Theres a huuuuge difference between foreknowledge and pre-determinism, when are ppl gonna learn this ?

These philosophical statements are insoluble. Foreknowlegde and Free will can co-exist, there is no reason at all why they cant.

stefanaustralia · 07-26-2007, 07:13 AM

this has been argued loads of times b4...each time no Christian gave a decent answer...just sayin'

JAGERBOY · 07-26-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vaper

If you go to a phycic and she fortells your future, did she predetermine it or does she just know it ? Theres a huuuuge difference between foreknowledge and pre-determinism, when are ppl gonna learn this ?

These philosophical statements are insoluble. Foreknowlegde and Free will can co-exist, there is no reason at all why they cant.

Horrible analogy. Psychics are not the CREATORS of the universe and all life. If they were, then yes, they would have predetermined everything.

grup910 · 07-26-2007, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAGERBOY

Horrible analogy. Psychics are not the CREATORS of the universe and all life. If they were, then yes, they would have predetermined everything.

Exactly what I was going to say. the fortuneteller might *know* what's going to happen, but "god" supposedly is the architect of all that happens.

Think of it this way Vaper: if you created a kind of inclined maze and put a marble in it, you would *know* which way the marble was going to roll (because you made the maze

). The marble is not free to follow some other path, because that's not the way you designed it. It's path is predetermined by your design. If you want it to roll some other way, you change the design. So the marble's actions are foreknown by you and they're also predetermined by you. The marble is not "free" to take some other action. It HAS to follow the path that you made, and you already know what that's going to be.