religious people: why do you think we are atheists?

[AKR]

just curious. do you think we honestly don't believe, or we've made a conscious choice? and why would we do that?



to Persecuted:

so since you don't fall into the category i spoke of (which is a perfectly reasonable category to put the majority of christians in), why do you think the rest of us don't believe? do you think we honestly don't believe, or are just faking it for some OTHER agenda?

[Persecuted]

Originally Posted by AKR

to Persecuted:

so since you don't fall into the category i spoke of (which is a perfectly reasonable category to put the majority of christians in),

Well I don't agree with you that its the majority of Christians but there are a fair few who do believe that your beliefs are a choice to those Christians I ask you, did you choose to believe that Atheists choose their beliefs?

I have spoken on this before and I do think there is choice involved in the process of belief or coming to a belief but you cannot just up and choose to believe or dis-believe things.

Originally Posted by AKR

why do you think the rest of us don't believe?

See why is probably the hardest question to answer, I can't know why it is that each and every Atheist does not believe.

So lets take you for example, it may make this a bit easer. I see that you seem to have a lot of hate for religion and maybe even followers of religion (note: I said maybe).
Also a lot of your arguments against religion or even God in general seem to be arguments from emotion than logic or reason. This leads me to think that maybe you have been hurt by followers of religion or maybe just hurt in some way you thought God should prevent and you cannot forgive him for it. Maybe because of all the pain you see other go through? I'm not sure, maybe I'm completely wrong but I think you don't believe more for emotional reasons rather than rational or logical reasons.

That's you I mean for someone else I would give a different explanation I think some of the Atheists on here are just plain arrogant and quite frankly dumb, they truly make me want to bang my head against something hard with some of the things they come up with. Note again I said some.

To be honest you come across as arrogant yourself but I don't think that is really part of your nature I think it stems from pain, hurt or empathy I don't think you are arrogant but your feelings might sometimes give that appearance.

Originally Posted by AKR

do you think we honestly don't believe, or are just faking it for some OTHER agenda?

Yes I think some honestly don't believe take Nietzsche I think he is an excellent example I think he did want to believe but couldn't I really feel sorry for him. Have you read any of his stories in Thus spoke Zarathustra? I haven't read the whole thing but I found this part to be stunning.

In this story by Nietzsche his character Zarathustra is living in the time when God is dead he comes across a hermit who lives in the forest praising God every day and worshiping him just listen to this exchange,

'And what is the saint doing in the forest?' asked Zarathustra. The saint answered: 'I make songs and sing them; and when I make songs, I laugh, cry, and hum: thus do I praise God. With singing, crying, laughing, and humming do I praise the god who is my god. But what do you bring us as a gift?' When Zarathustra had heard these words he bade the saint farewell and said: 'What could I have to give you? But let me go quickly lest I take something from you!' And thus they separated, the old one and the man, laughing as two boys laugh.

But when Zarathustra was alone he spoke thus to his heart: 'Could it be possible? This old saint in the forest has not yet heard anything of this, that God is dead!'

I think this is how Nietzsche himself felt that he wished he did not believe that God was dead. Have you heard his parable of the madman? I wish more Atheists on here read Nietzsche's works he obviously was not happy with his Atheism because he was honest with himself I believe.

I don't think anyone is faking disbelief, could anyone reasonably believe that?

[DanielBell]

Originally Posted by Persecuted

Well I don't agree with you that its the majority of Christians but there are a fair few who do believe that your beliefs are a choice to those Christians I ask you, did you choose to believe that Atheists choose their beliefs?

I have spoken on this before and I do think there is choice involved in the process of belief or coming to a belief but you cannot just up and choose to believe or dis-believe things.



See why is probably the hardest question to answer, I can't know why it is that each and every Atheist does not believe.

So lets take you for example, it may make this a bit easer. I see that you seem to have a lot of hate for religion and maybe even followers of religion (note: I said maybe).
Also a lot of your arguments against religion or even God in general seem to be arguments from emotion than logic or reason. This leads me to think that maybe you have been hurt by followers of religion or maybe just hurt in some way you thought God should prevent and you cannot forgive him for it. Maybe because of all the pain you see other go through? I'm not sure, maybe I'm completely wrong but I think you don't believe more for emotional reasons rather than rational or logical reasons.

That's you I mean for someone else I would give a different explanation I think some of the Atheists on here are just plain arrogant and quite frankly dumb, they truly make me want to bang my head against something hard with some of the things they come up with. Note again I said some.

To be honest you come across as arrogant yourself but I don't think that is really part of your nature I think it stems from pain, hurt or empathy I don't think you are arrogant but your feelings might sometimes give that appearance.




Yes I think some honestly don't believe take Nietzsche I think he is an excellent example I think he did want to believe but couldn't I really feel sorry for him. Have you read any of his stories in Thus spoke Zarathustra? I haven't read the whole thing but I found this part to be stunning.

In this story by Nietzsche his character Zarathustra is living in the time when God is dead he comes across a hermit who lives in the forest praising God every day and worshiping him just listen to this exchange,



I think this is how Nietzsche himself felt that he wished he did not believe that God was dead. Have you heard his parable of the madman? I wish more Atheists on here read Nietzsche's works he obviously was not happy with his Atheism because he was honest with himself I believe.

I don't think anyone is faking disbelief, could anyone reasonably believe that?

One of my gf's friends keeps encouraging me to read Nietzsche. Just sayin'.

[AKR]

Originally Posted by Persecuted

Well I don't agree with you that its the majority of Christians but there are a fair few who do believe that your beliefs are a choice to those Christians I ask you, did you choose to believe that Atheists choose their beliefs?

i don't really get what you're asking.

I have spoken on this before and I do think there is choice involved in the process of belief or coming to a belief but you cannot just up and choose to believe or dis-believe things.

i don't believe there is ANY choice involved in a belief.

See why is probably the hardest question to answer, I can't know why it is that each and every Atheist does not believe.

So lets take you for example, it may make this a bit easer. I see that you seem to have a lot of hate for religion and maybe even followers of religion (note: I said maybe).
Also a lot of your arguments against religion or even God in general seem to be arguments from emotion than logic or reason. This leads me to think that maybe you have been hurt by followers of religion or maybe just hurt in some way you thought God should prevent and you cannot forgive him for it. Maybe because of all the pain you see other go through? I'm not sure, maybe I'm completely wrong but I think you don't believe more for emotional reasons rather than rational or logical reasons.

a lot of my posts are about contradictions in the bible, and they really are all about logic. if i can prove a god to be unfair, cruel, and contradictive, it is not logical that this being is intelligent enough to create all that exists. this seems very logical. no, i am not acting out against christianity because of the followers; i'm simply taking the religion and using it against itself.

That's you I mean for someone else I would give a different explanation I think some of the Atheists on here are just plain arrogant and quite frankly dumb, they truly make me want to bang my head against something hard with some of the things they come up with. Note again I said some.

To be honest you come across as arrogant yourself but I don't think that is really part of your nature I think it stems from pain, hurt or empathy I don't think you are arrogant but your feelings might sometimes give that appearance.

i know, a lot of people think i'm arrogant on here, but i think it's a combination of confidence, and what i feel am i pushed into sometimes, with the attitudes of some christians. i think i get into pissing matches with some in here, because of how they respond to me, but anyway...

Yes I think some honestly don't believe take Nietzsche I think he is an excellent example I think he did want to believe but couldn't I really feel sorry for him. Have you read any of his stories in Thus spoke Zarathustra? I haven't read the whole thing but I found this part to be stunning.

i've read some a while ago, but don't remember much. i read something about superman, and i thought it was a bit screwed up. it was a while ago, so dunno what i'd think about it now.

In this story by Nietzsche his character Zarathustra is living in the time when God is dead he comes across a hermit who lives in the forest praising God every day and worshiping him just listen to this exchange,

I think this is how Nietzsche himself felt that he wished he did not believe that God was dead. Have you heard his parable of the madman? I wish more Atheists on here read Nietzsche's works he obviously was not happy with his Atheism because he was honest with himself I believe.

I don't think anyone is faking disbelief, could anyone reasonably believe that?

i don't know if they actually believe that, or they just tell themseves that. i've been in these forums for a long time, and have been around christians my entire life, which is why i have the stance i do. i KNOW most christians believe that we have CHOSEN to not believe in god. it's one of the BIGGEST pet peeves of mine, because i have been through the struggle of leaving christianity. i have WANTED to believe, or just WANTED desperately to know either way. i really did not care whether or not god existed or not; i just simply wanted to know. and yet, i'd say, possibly 99% of christians will refuse to believe that any atheist is not making a choice to not believe.

do i want to believe that there's some great, fair being up in the sky who will make everything ok in the end? do i want to believe that all of the crazy **** in the world actually has a positive purpose? hey, that'd be great, but it just doesn't make a damn bit of sense to me.

that's all for tonight. gotta go to bed. 'night.

[Persecuted]

Originally Posted by DanielBell

One of my gf's friends keeps encouraging me to read Nietzsche. Just sayin'.

lol

Why is she encouraging you to read him?

[DanielBell]

Originally Posted by Persecuted

lol

Why is she encouraging you to read him?

He's a bloke.. Her friend that is.. Well he knows me and says I'd like him, he studies philosophy.

[timbo81]

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment and they feel they are misunderstood by society so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

[DanielBell]

Originally Posted by timbo81

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

It's nothing like emo culture, I find life fulfilling and the world beautiful, all without God.

[myPecsRbigger]

Originally Posted by timbo81

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment and they feel they are misunderstood by society so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

if ignorance is the norm and anti establishment is logic and reason, then call me a rebel

[_ultraviolet_]

Originally Posted by timbo81

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment and they feel they are misunderstood by society so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

Is it also rebellious to not believe in Santa Clause?

[timbo81]

Originally Posted by _ultraviolet_

Is it also rebellious to not believe in Santa Clause?

extremely

especially if you are <6

[clovely]

Originally Posted by AKR

just curious. do you think we honestly don't believe, or we've made a conscious choice? and why would we do that?

Just pointing out, because I can't resist, that we should take a moment to think about what the responses would be to a thread asking "why do you think we're Christians?" It wouldn't be very flattering or very civil.

[HatesFat]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

A letter published in Nature in 1998 reported a survey suggesting that belief in a personal God or afterlife was at an all-time low among the members of the U.S. National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of whom believed in a personal God as compared to more than 85% of the general U.S. population.

In the same year Frank Sulloway of MIT and Michael Shermer of California State University conducted a study which found in their polling sample of "credentialed" U.S. adults (12% had Ph.Ds and 62% were college graduates) 64% believed in God, and there was a correlation indicating that religious conviction diminished with education level.

Such an inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence has been found by 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine.

Yep, totally like emo culture.

[LatissimusDorsi]

Oh, oh...

[Lilkj]

I think you're being fooled by the devil. Continuing to lead your life well, and without harming others, will only lead you to hell, as this is the very logical punishment for anyone who doesn't believe in God. However, to the serial killer who finds God-you are welcome to heaven...as forgiveness is the most logical reward for murderers and rapists that find God.

[SteR-]

I haven't read anyone elses responses yet but honestly, I think it's because you believe you haven't seen any evidence to convince you otherwise.

Problem I see with this is the fact that you choose to be an athiest rather than agnostic? Surely the most logical choice would be agnostic.. ie. to admit that you honestly don't know as opposed to saying 'I believe God does not exist' ?

[HatesFat]

Originally Posted by SteR-

I haven't read anyone elses responses yet but honestly, I think it's because you believe you haven't seen any evidence to convince you otherwise.

Problem I see with this is the fact that you choose to be an athiest rather than agnostic? Surely the most logical choice would be agnostic.. ie. to admit that you honestly don't know as opposed to saying 'I believe God does not exist' ?

I can see why people think that. But the most reasonable position in the face of no evidence is Atheism. You are not agnostic towards the existence of Flying Spaghetti Monsters even though you have no evidence.

It can be argued puristically that in fact being agnostic towards the existence of flying spaghetti monsters IS the most reasonable position, but that hardly passes the gut-check right?

added: oh and if we were to follow that logic, we would then have to be agnostic towards the existence of all manners of absurd things. Someone would simply have to introduce an absurd un-provable idea and we would HAVE to claim agnosticism regardless of how absurd it is.

For example, up until now, you had NO reason to be non-believing or agnostic towards the idea that I become invisible only when no-one is looking. It was simply a non-issue. You wouldn't even think about it.

But now that I just introduced the idea simply by stringing together some words, do you have to say, "well, he COULD be invisible when no-one's looking, I don't know"?

[Dreamscapes]

Originally Posted by clovely

Just pointing out, because I can't resist, that we should take a moment to think about what the responses would be to a thread asking "why do you think we're Christians?" It wouldn't be very flattering or very civil.

Start a thread, then.

Maybe you'll be suprised. I know several of us that would be civil. (alas, I know some won't.) Flattering? I can't see how that would apply. It really doesn't fit, here.

[ElderJefferson]

Originally Posted by AKR

just curious. do you think we honestly don't believe, or we've made a conscious choice? and why would we do that?

Why don't you tell me

[Ruhanv]

It's an interesting question AKR!

I have heard that I am an Atheist because I want to reject God, I want to live a hedonistic life, I am proud, I reject the truth even though I know that God exists, etc.

The problem is that when I used to be a Christian I used to say that to Atheists as well. As a Christian an Atheist had to be one of the above in order not to be a Christian. I mean how could anyone not want all this love, joy and fullfillment that comes with having a personal relationship with Jesus. They had to reject God out of some sinful place in their hearts.

Then there is the other theory which Persecuted touched upon, which is that they had to be hurt by the church or people at some stage, and it's this hurt which is fuelling their anger towards religion.

Fortunately none of these were true in the end but I can understand why a Christian would feel this way.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by HatesFat

I can see why people think that. But the most reasonable position in the face of no evidence is Atheism. You are not agnostic towards the existence of Flying Spaghetti Monsters even though you have no evidence.

It can be argued puristically that in fact being agnostic towards the existence of flying spaghetti monsters IS the most reasonable position, but that hardly passes the gut-check right?

added: oh and if we were to follow that logic, we would then have to be agnostic towards the existence of all manners of absurd things. Someone would simply have to introduce an absurd un-provable idea and we would HAVE to claim agnosticism regardless of how absurd it is.

For example, up until now, you had NO reason to be non-believing or agnostic towards the idea that I become invisible only when no-one is looking. It was simply a non-issue. You wouldn't even think about it.

But now that I just introduced the idea simply by stringing together some words, do you have to say, "well, he COULD be invisible when no-one's looking, I don't know"?

Well, yes I suppose it would remain true with flying spaghetti monsters too. The truth of the matter is we know so little about our universe/reality/whatever. To assume ANYTHING is pretty daft.. so the best position is always going to be agnostic.. however absurd the theories may be.

[Ruhanv]

Originally Posted by SteR-

Well, yes I suppose it would remain true with flying spaghetti monsters too. The truth of the matter is we know so little about our universe/reality/whatever. To assume ANYTHING is pretty daft.. so the best position is always going to be agnostic.. however absurd the theories may be.

That's almost a completely different discussion but I don't think Agnosticism is a very honest position. You are not agnostic towards the spaghetti monster. You feel comfortable rejecting it because it's a ridiculous notion. I don't see why a god which if you really define it is an invisible ghost like creature which lives somewhere in space but has no beginning nor end. It's not less ridiculous than believing that there is a monster made out of pasta floating around the sky.

Why should we even entertain the possibility of a space ghost by calling ourselves Agnostics?

[user1245464]

Originally Posted by timbo81

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment and they feel they are misunderstood by society so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

I don't even know where to begin with this.

[SteR-]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

That's almost a completely different discussion but I don't think Agnosticism is a very honest position. You are not agnostic towards the spaghetti monster. You feel comfortable rejecting it because it's a ridiculous notion. I don't see why a god which if you really define it is an invisible ghost like creature which lives somewhere in space but has no beginning nor end. It's not less ridiculous than believing that there is a monster made out of pasta floating around the sky.

Why should we even entertain the possibility of a space ghost by calling ourselves Agnostics?

It doesn't matter how unbelievable it sounds, you can't make a claim that you KNOW something doesn't exist unless you created everything

[ElderJefferson]

Originally Posted by Ruhanv

It's an interesting question AKR!

I have heard that I am an Atheist because I want to reject God, I want to live a hedonistic life, I am proud, I reject the truth even though I know that God exists, etc.

The problem is that when I used to be a Christian I used to say that to Atheists as well. As a Christian an Atheist had to be one of the above in order not to be a Christian. I mean how could anyone not want all this love, joy and fullfillment that comes with having a personal relationship with Jesus. They had to reject God out of some sinful place in their hearts.

Then there is the other theory which Persecuted touched upon, which is that they had to be hurt by the church or people at some stage, and it's this hurt which is fuelling their anger towards religion.

Fortunately none of these were true in the end but I can understand why a Christian would feel this way.

Ruhanv Crap Posts: ...Wait, that wasn't crappy at all. Good job, kid!

On a more serious note, I'm not sure as to the jist of this thread. I worship in a church where practically no one (to my knowledge) looks "down" upon someone who is an atheist. Why should we? Why SHOULDN'T someone be an atheist? I believe that in many instances it's no more difficult for an atheist to believe in God as it is for me NOT to believe in my Father's watchcare.

It would be absolutely preposterous and rebellious for me to denounce my faith knowing what I know and experiencing what I have experienced. Question is - who am I to dictate someone else's convictions and beliefs?

The only thing that upsets me is when an atheist tries to tell me why my faith is misguided, like they actually know anything about me, the Bible, or my God (so pretty much I have a problem with half the posters in this forum ).

[Ruhanv]

Originally Posted by SteR-

It doesn't matter how unbelievable it sounds, you can't make a claim that you KNOW something doesn't exist unless you created everything

I don't agree.

I think we do this all the time in life and it's just being consistant. You would normally be more than comfortable to claim that you know that there is no such thing as the toothfairy. Why would that be arrogant? We reject silly ideas all the time.

Surely you don't think we should remain agnostic about the toothfairy?

[devire1]

here's something christians that think not beleiving is a choice should ask themselves. if u wanted to believe in sanata claus, could u? and i don't mean to just say u do, i mean could u really and truely deep down beleive that there is a santa claus that flys in his sled every december 25th and drops down kid's chimneys to leave them presents?

[aiwass]

Originally Posted by SteR-

It doesn't matter how unbelievable it sounds, you can't make a claim that you KNOW something doesn't exist unless you created everything

Atheism isn't claiming to know that God doesn't exist, though.

[Shaun1990]

Originally Posted by timbo81

atheist is like the emo culture, it's anti-establishment and they feel they are misunderstood by society so therefore cool to rebel.

/thread

Yes, quite clearly all atheists support the down fall of establishment, thats why we routinely rebel (its in our instruction manual, page 322, after the chapter about baby killing) against society... we also feel we are misunderstood as well, because... oh screw it, I am not wasting my time with sarcasm any more. Most atheists do not feel they are misunderstood by society, people are atheists by default, there is nothing natural about believing in a God. Besides, America is probably the only Western nation where there seems to be any sort of problem in being an atheist. None in the UK. In Sweden, somewhere around 80% are non believers. There really is not much an issue with being Atheist in Europe at all.

[Ruhanv]

Originally Posted by devire1

here's something christians that think not beleiving is a choice should ask themselves. if u wanted to believe in sanata claus, could u? and i don't mean to just say u do, i mean could u really and truely deep down beleive that there is a santa claus that flys in his sled every december 25th and drops down kid's chimneys to leave them presents?

Good way of putting it!